The rise and fall of Windhelm

maboleth

I've been to Windhelm for the first time in ESO. Such wonderfully cozy and romantic city, full of life and street happenings. Festivals, drinking, laughing, dancing.

Total contrast to the Windhelm in Skyrim, 4th era. Old, rusty, full of beggars, murderers, poverty and dirt. What on Nirn happened there? It's like Nords went totally backwards with their beautiful city.

What went wrong? Is there's any hope for Windhelm to ever reach the glory days of the past after Skyrim events? Even in the case that Stromcloaks win.

By the way, I know ESO is the 2nd era, Skyrim's 4th. But how many years exactly passed between those?

Rouven

Totally not a lore guy here, but you might find this interesting:

2E 582 - ESO now.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Second_Era

4E 201 - Skyrim now
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Fourth_Era

Other than that I think there were a few wars.

Totalitarian

It's foreshadowing of the future to come.

Something that other people on this forum have noticed is that the ES games, as they progress chronologically, tend to be darker and more drab.

It's all coming to an end. The once bright Windhelm has been reduced to a dark, cold city. The Empire is falling apart, the World-Eater himself returns...

That being said, there's usually more than one cause of this. As already mentioned, there were a few wars and stuff like that. I'll touch on one war.


A big cause to Windhelm's decay is due to Skyrim being in a civil war, so that takes a brutal toll on everything. In modern day, a civil war completely decimates a nation, no matter how developed. While we can attribute much to modern technology, we also have modern technology to help restore order. Skyrim has no such thing. Its civil war is breaking it down, and the people are reflecting it. You can imagine that there is famine and plague on a large scale, unable to be attended to because of the lack of knowledge to aid in growing food, or to stop sickness.

When it comes to a conflict such as a full scale foreign invasion (Soviet Union in WWII), or a civil war (Spain pre-WWII), it's basically all hands on deck, and it's kill or be killed. The whole population is being mobilized to fight, not to repair the city. It is quite literally a fight for survival. And on that, the Stormcloaks are in a stalemate (before the Dragonborn goes and resolves it). For the rebels/inciters/attackers to be in a stalemate is horrible; it means you are losing. You have to keep on feeding your military men, while trying to keep their bellies full. While the Imperials have a whole empire to source food from, the Stormcloaks have their meager holdings, and perhaps the help of some supporters. The Stormcloaks need a big army, but they also need to feed it, and they can't do that when they've mobilized as many people as they can and they need land to grow more food.

The Stormcloaks have it especially hard trying to conquer all of Skyrim. In America, we had a bloody civil war, but the separatists really just wanted their own independent nation, so they could remain defensive the whole time, and didn't have to waste massive amounts of soldiers to attempt to conquer all of America. Despite the considerable bloodshed, the trauma to the nation was limited to the region of rebellion, and it never got as bloody as some civil wars can get. The Stormcloaks aren't doing that; they want their own state in Skyrim, not a puppet of the Empire. Because of this, they aren't going to stay defensive, and will take big losses from attempting to expand, and could put them in danger of simply running out of people to send to the frontlines. Most people at this time are probably peasants, so the more people that the Stormcloaks field, mean less food being grown, and less soldiers that can be fed. This is a very common issue, and a peasant army leads to a lot of deserters.

Moving on, what we see in ESO is a strong, united Skyrim, united under one king (ignore the mini power struggle they have in ESO). Not the shredded nation that we see a thousand years later. Windhelm is ravaged by not having enough manpower to keep itself in shape, and, quite honestly, all money that would be used for that would simply be used to fund a bigger army. The Stormcloaks are in the worst type of war, the type of war that us in the West have had the grace to never see: a true total war. The population is fully mobilized to survival, and they are giving their final breaths of effort as they attempt to survive. There is no time to repair their once great city. There is only war.

You can expect that the Imperials in Skyrim will start to feel this if/when they start to lose the war.

maboleth

Massive amount of thanks @Totalitarian . Very enjoyable reading and lots of insights.

On a totally side note - I had lots of trouble siding with anyone in Skyrim. I guess Bethesda made it look like it is in real life - no side is completely right or wrong in the civil war. On one hand Stromcloaks are totally right, I fully support them on all core issues, on the other hand, Ulfric looks like a coward (Torygg event), man without temper and a diplomacy. Primitive, insular, racist and without any higher values except the rebellious raw power. Certainly not the man to rule the nation and all the people of Skyrim. If you compare him with Jorunn Skald-King, well... you can see how Nords went downward. If Ulfric shared the wisdom of Balgruuf the Greater, that would have been a totally different story, but alas...

Tough times for Skyrim after 4E indeed...

Father_X_Zombie

I want to see what Solitude looks like right now, id imagine it would be smaller but the Windhelm in ESO is alot bigger then the one in Skyrim.

maboleth

^ I somehow doubt it would be bigger, considering the whole city was mostly built on a giant rock, surrounded by the mountains. Only if the rock itself was bigger before and fell to the sea.

So basically, 1000 years passed since ESO days, right?

WhiteCoatSyndrome

maboleth wrote: »

So basically, 1000 years passed since ESO days, right?

Yup. And we've got an entire other Daedric invasion between then and now, too.

bebynnag

having recently popped back to the remastered skyrim after 2 years of ESO i was left with 1 major question, what happend to all the outlaw refuges'?

Integral1900

The outlaw refuges would most likely have been abandoned when the thieves guild collapsed prior to the events of skyrim. Also remember that a game can't show everything, skyrim would have most likely seen thousands of little villiages, towns and hamlets rather than the dozen or so in game. Skyrim doesn't have transit shrines but has fast travel because it wasn't a mechanic need outside of an mmo.

There is a slide into the dark as time goes by but remember that this history ends with the last dragon born and if tamriel continues to follow Nordic mythological patterns this means that after the events of skyrim will come a new and more ascendant era until the slide begins again thousands of years later and the pattern repeats.

bebynnag

Thanks,
and while i apriciate the landscape is different, i was just aware that there were masive caves/den/gapping holes under some of the major cities and it played on me more than anything else! maybe i spend too much time at the refuges laundring my stolen wares in ESO! LOL

Hawkeye0099

puffytheslayer wrote: »

Thanks,
and while i apriciate the landscape is different, i was just aware that there were masive caves/den/gapping holes under some of the major cities and it played on me more than anything else! maybe i spend too much time at the refuges laundring my stolen wares in ESO! LOL

I forgot about those after the thieves guild dlc XD

tplink3r1

IT'S THE DARK ELVES FAULT I TELL YOU!

Druachan

Totalitarian wrote: »

It's foreshadowing of the future to come.

Something that other people on this forum have noticed is that the ES games, as they progress chronologically, tend to be darker and more drab.

It's all coming to an end. The once bright Windhelm has been reduced to a dark, cold city. The Empire is falling apart, the World-Eater himself returns...

That being said, there's usually more than one cause of this. As already mentioned, there were a few wars and stuff like that. I'll touch on one war.


A big cause to Windhelm's decay is due to Skyrim being in a civil war, so that takes a brutal toll on everything. In modern day, a civil war completely decimates a nation, no matter how developed. While we can attribute much to modern technology, we also have modern technology to help restore order. Skyrim has no such thing. Its civil war is breaking it down, and the people are reflecting it. You can imagine that there is famine and plague on a large scale, unable to be attended to because of the lack of knowledge to aid in growing food, or to stop sickness.

When it comes to a conflict such as a full scale foreign invasion (Soviet Union in WWII), or a civil war (Spain pre-WWII), it's basically all hands on deck, and it's kill or be killed. The whole population is being mobilized to fight, not to repair the city. It is quite literally a fight for survival. And on that, the Stormcloaks are in a stalemate (before the Dragonborn goes and resolves it). For the rebels/inciters/attackers to be in a stalemate is horrible; it means you are losing. You have to keep on feeding your military men, while trying to keep their bellies full. While the Imperials have a whole empire to source food from, the Stormcloaks have their meager holdings, and perhaps the help of some supporters. The Stormcloaks need a big army, but they also need to feed it, and they can't do that when they've mobilized as many people as they can and they need land to grow more food.

The Stormcloaks have it especially hard trying to conquer all of Skyrim. In America, we had a bloody civil war, but the separatists really just wanted their own independent nation, so they could remain defensive the whole time, and didn't have to waste massive amounts of soldiers to attempt to conquer all of America. Despite the considerable bloodshed, the trauma to the nation was limited to the region of rebellion, and it never got as bloody as some civil wars can get. The Stormcloaks aren't doing that; they want their own state in Skyrim, not a puppet of the Empire. Because of this, they aren't going to stay defensive, and will take big losses from attempting to expand, and could put them in danger of simply running out of people to send to the frontlines. Most people at this time are probably peasants, so the more people that the Stormcloaks field, mean less food being grown, and less soldiers that can be fed. This is a very common issue, and a peasant army leads to a lot of deserters.

Moving on, what we see in ESO is a strong, united Skyrim, united under one king (ignore the mini power struggle they have in ESO). Not the shredded nation that we see a thousand years later. Windhelm is ravaged by not having enough manpower to keep itself in shape, and, quite honestly, all money that would be used for that would simply be used to fund a bigger army. The Stormcloaks are in the worst type of war, the type of war that us in the West have had the grace to never see: a true total war. The population is fully mobilized to survival, and they are giving their final breaths of effort as they attempt to survive. There is no time to repair their once great city. There is only war.

You can expect that the Imperials in Skyrim will start to feel this if/when they start to lose the war.

Well as someone in the north part of the uk and who actually lives in an empire (oh it still is). The Nords are fighting a war to take back their lands and reclaim their culture. The nords don't seem to have much interest in taking over the empire they just want to have the freedom to be nords. So there's a big similarity between irelands struggle for freedom against the British and the nords fight against the empire. Who wants to be governed by someone a thousand leagues away who thinks they can tell you which gods you can worship, blowing your taxes while your people starve? As for windhelm, yes by the time of skyrim there was an effort needed for the war. You might also say that thanks to the empire windhelm has been run down so much that the stormcloaks have had enough and decide to take action before skyrim is lost forever. The question to answer is how long is the empire prepared to fund a war and lose lives fighting a war it can't really win. Kill Ulfric? There's a dozen to take his place.

Not sure technology is much of a benefit either. Technology hasn't done much to help the victims of conflict. Technology can't destroy ideas or change beliefs.

At the end of the war in skyrim your told that the empire losing leaves it weak in the face of the aldmeri dominion. Maybe it is but no empire lasts for ever.

I enjoyed reading what you put together. Shows that people's experiences influence their perspective on the game.

Skyrim belongs to the nords!! :-)

maboleth

^ Well, I don't think Ulfric is anywhere close to being a true leader. He's totally primitive and racist, his close friends are no better than hill trolls. Also his use of Thu'um is questionable, looks like a coward to me. He's fighting for a good cause though. But without the funds, support and much broader view, I guess there'll be no future for Skyrim with Stormcloaks.

I think Balgruuf is a very smart and diplomatic one. No wonder Whiterun is flourishing despite the crisis. He's probably the only one currently in Skyrim that has both the power and any wisdom left.