Health - Worth the Attribute Points for DPS Builds?

Darkstorne

I've got a level 42 Stam Sorc now, figure I'll be at 50 soon and finally get to see what the Champion system is like! All my attribute points have gone into Stamina so far and she absolutely destroys everything. Build below, and combined with the Thief Stone I'm now at 47% weapon crit, so thanks to the crit heals and defence buff I'm always at max health against normal mobs, even when I'm fighting 5+ group sizes.

2H weapon
Critical Rush for the opener and insta crits when needed
Reverse Slice for AOE spammable damage when a mob drops to 50% health
Expert Hunter for passive weapon crit
Hurricane for passive AOE and the big buffs to defence
Surge for the 20% damage boost and big heals from crits.
Overload when I need to deal huge AOE damage from the start of a fight

The Problem: Some boss type enemies can literally one shot me with their big attacks. Full health, with Hurricane up for buffs, if I don't get my dodge off in time, I'm gone. Now in a way that's kinda fun, especially since I love the Dark Souls series But I'm wondering how much survivability I'd get out of some attribute points in Health? Would 10 points in Health make much difference? I'm at 12.6k health right now, which seems awful, and I don't know how much difference 10 points would make, or if I'm better off investing them in Stamina to further boost my weapon damage so I can simply kill faster and survive that way?

Also worth noting I don't have any particular enchants yet. I've just been grabbing whatever I come across and favouring Stamina. Would 100% Stamina Attributes but enchanting gear with +Health work? I'm not sure which is more efficient. If 7 pieces of gear with +Health is the same as 7 Health Attribute points, maybe I'm better off going with the Attributes...

Thanks for reading

Biro123

At the moment, there isn't a lot of benefit from putting points into health. Keep it all in Stam - but use food. Some decent food will give you an extra 5k health and 5k stam.

The if you find you need a little more health, switch sets/enchants around a little. You can sometimes have too much health, but can never have too much stam.

Although Zos have hinted that they make health a more useful stat in future patches.

Darkstorne

@Biro123 Okay, thanks! I actually want to make this character a Provisioner as well, so that could work out well. Forgot about food buffs, but I've been leaving things like that for post-level 50.

Is there a Health pool size I should be aiming for? I've seen some threads online saying 18k, but they're fairly old so not sure if that's still a good rule of thumb.

fioskal

About 18k after food is a good number.

hrothbern

Biro123 wrote: »

At the moment, there isn't a lot of benefit from putting points into health. Keep it all in Stam - but use food. Some decent food will give you an extra 5k health and 5k stam.

The if you find you need a little more health, switch sets/enchants around a little. You can sometimes have too much health, but can never have too much stam.

Although Zos have hinted that they make health a more useful stat in future patches.

+1 on all points made

and if you are lvl 50 and got CP 160+, it could be a good move to use tri-stat enchants on your armor, depends a bit on what health stat benefit ZOS will implement....
and ofc in how far you want to keep on playing a sharp Dark Souls style

In PVP I would ensure some more health stat, one way or another, until you are seasoned enough in PVP... then it depends on the playstyle you like.

Biro123

Depends on what role you want to take. I'm probably not the best to advise on that score since I mostly PVP, so I'm only really set up for that. But I have solo'd a few vet dungeons and a fair few world bosses on my stamsorc. That's with around 21k health (including food buff) and with purple CP160 gear - so it sounds like you're not all *that* far from it.

Although I do wear heavy armour and a shield..

But as per taking the big boss-hits - the big hits are usually telegraphed in some way so it may just be a case of recognising that.

Oh, and if you like 2-handed, work on getting Rally - you get a great burst heal when re-casting it just before it runs out. Some builds use 2-h just as a buff-bar for that skill alone.

DHale

I think 17 to 18 k health is recommended in pve. Any lower people will give you grief... lots of grief. I did 18 k and the survivability was better but damage was lower.

Darkstorne

Biro123 wrote: »

But as per taking the big boss-hits - the big hits are usually telegraphed in some way so it may just be a case of recognising that.

Oh, and if you like 2-handed, work on getting Rally - you get a great burst heal when re-casting it just before it runs out. Some builds use 2-h just as a buff-bar for that skill alone.

Yep, most of the time I dodge just fine, but earlier today I didn't dodge in time and was amazed to see the screen fade to grey when I was at full health! I'll have to experiment with food buffs. Ideally I'd like to be able to just about survive the big hits, since I can heal up insanely fast when every other attack I make is a crit that instantly heals me for 2k health.

I can use Rally now, but I figured Surge was the better choice for my crit build. Both boost weapon damage by 20%, and both heal. But while Rally is a small heal every 2 seconds (until it runs out, and most battles are usually over by then), Surge's heal is a massive 2k every time I crit, and can proc every single second. With a 47% crit chance, and a guaranteed crit when I need it from Critical Rush, it seemed more reliable.

DHale wrote: »

I think 17 to 18 k health is recommended in pve. Any lower people will give you grief... lots of grief. I did 18 k and the survivability was better but damage was lower.

Thank you Good to see so many people confirming the 18k rule of thumb. I'll see if I can get there with food, and I think I'll top up with armour enchants if I need more.

Biro123

Rally vs Crit surge is a tough choice, there really isn't a lot in it.. I like stamsorc largely because you aren't tied to a 2-hander for major brutality.

My take is that if you have a fair amount of dmg mitigation and another heal (like me with hvy armour, shield, vigour and dark deal), and block rather than dodge, then crit-surge is better as its constantly topping up your health from the smaller hits it keeps taking. If you have low mitigation, when you get hit, it will hurt - so a more bursty heal may be better. Plus the fact that one uses magicka to cast, the other stam could affect your choice too.
I use crit-surge, some prefer rally, some even do both. Go with whichever works best for you.

Dagoth_Rac

Once you start gaining Champion Points, you will get a little extra health every 3rd CP (the red "Warrior" points). First red CP is worth 1% more health. It goes down pretty quickly after that, but full 561 CP (187 in Warrior) is worth about 19% bonus health. So if you feel you are not getting same stats as other players despite same gear, enchants, attributes, etc., it can be a CP issue. Unless you are doing hard mode Trials or something, most endgame content seems balanced around 300 CP (and can be completed well before that as long as you understand mechanics). And the earlier CP come a lot faster than the later ones. So you should still see your health going up, little by little, even after you hit Level 50.

Flowersquisher

If you want those big damage crits, stick with stam. Most stam builds have 0 into health and max 64 stam. Main boss attacks are suppose to hurt, a well timed dodge or block will usually save you. Also, try using max health and stam blue food, at 12k health looks like you're not using any.

Darkstorne

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Once you start gaining Champion Points, you will get a little extra health every 3rd CP (the red "Warrior" points). First red CP is worth 1% more health. It goes down pretty quickly after that, but full 561 CP (187 in Warrior) is worth about 19% bonus health. So if you feel you are not getting same stats as other players despite same gear, enchants, attributes, etc., it can be a CP issue. Unless you are doing hard mode Trials or something, most endgame content seems balanced around 300 CP (and can be completed well before that as long as you understand mechanics). And the earlier CP come a lot faster than the later ones. So you should still see your health going up, little by little, even after you hit Level 50.

Ahhh, yeah I bet that helps a lot once you've spent 300CP Is the Warrior tree worth investing in for Stam Sorcs though? I thought this game was pretty rough for hybrid builds, but maybe Champion Points are different?

Flowersquisher wrote: »

If you want those big damage crits, stick with stam. Most stam builds have 0 into health and max 64 stam. Main boss attacks are suppose to hurt, a well timed dodge or block will usually save you. Also, try using max health and stam blue food, at 12k health looks like you're not using any.

Yeah I've just jumped into the game to check out what kind of food I can craft. Just crafted some green 5.6k health food which should help LOADS already, and I've been using up all the ingredients that have been stashed in the bank to level myself straight to 40 Provisioning!

This thread has been so awesome with all the great advice.

Flowersquisher

you can buy stacks of food in guild stores too, it's actually pretty cheap. Keep those precious skill points for damage skill or whatever, worry about provisioning when you have points to spare.

Dagoth_Rac

Darkstorne wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Once you start gaining Champion Points, you will get a little extra health every 3rd CP (the red "Warrior" points). First red CP is worth 1% more health. It goes down pretty quickly after that, but full 561 CP (187 in Warrior) is worth about 19% bonus health. So if you feel you are not getting same stats as other players despite same gear, enchants, attributes, etc., it can be a CP issue. Unless you are doing hard mode Trials or something, most endgame content seems balanced around 300 CP (and can be completed well before that as long as you understand mechanics). And the earlier CP come a lot faster than the later ones. So you should still see your health going up, little by little, even after you hit Level 50.

Ahhh, yeah I bet that helps a lot once you've spent 300CP Is the Warrior tree worth investing in for Stam Sorcs though? I thought this game was pretty rough for hybrid builds, but maybe Champion Points are different?

You have no choice. The Champion Points rotate: Warrior, then Thief, then Mage. So after 99 CP, you will have 33 in each. You cannot gain 99 CP and put all in Thief or all in Mage. All stars have something of worth to each player, though. Warrior is generally about damage mitigation, Thief about resource management, and Mage about dealing damage.

Darkstorne

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Once you start gaining Champion Points, you will get a little extra health every 3rd CP (the red "Warrior" points). First red CP is worth 1% more health. It goes down pretty quickly after that, but full 561 CP (187 in Warrior) is worth about 19% bonus health. So if you feel you are not getting same stats as other players despite same gear, enchants, attributes, etc., it can be a CP issue. Unless you are doing hard mode Trials or something, most endgame content seems balanced around 300 CP (and can be completed well before that as long as you understand mechanics). And the earlier CP come a lot faster than the later ones. So you should still see your health going up, little by little, even after you hit Level 50.

Ahhh, yeah I bet that helps a lot once you've spent 300CP Is the Warrior tree worth investing in for Stam Sorcs though? I thought this game was pretty rough for hybrid builds, but maybe Champion Points are different?

You have no choice. The Champion Points rotate: Warrior, then Thief, then Mage. So after 99 CP, you will have 33 in each. You cannot gain 99 CP and put all in Thief or all in Mage. All stars have something of worth to each player, though. Warrior is generally about damage mitigation, Thief about resource management, and Mage about dealing damage.

Oh, I see! Sounds fun! I'll definitely read up on it all once I hit 50 and have points to spend

DragonBound

Well it would not hurt to put some into health to be honest you really do not want to be squishy dps as if you go down allot then that is still less dps you are doing.

kessik221

Any mechanic that can one shot you is meant to be avoided. I run 64 stam and have 18.3k health with food up ( you should always have food)

Stannum

Any PvE DPS is most effective with 64-0-0 on her main resource (and blue food)

Asmael

Max CP, correct distribution and 17k health is enough for all PvE content (including all trials HM), even stamina, but that's excluding Warhorn & Ebon buffs. 16k base HP (only food) is really pushing it.

If you're not max CP, nothing prevents you from having a neck / ring with a health enchant instead to compensate for the missing extra health.

slayerwins

18k is a good number. Having an extra set ring with a healthy enchant to switch out to can help with solo or hard content. Sometimes just having that one big piece of armor with a health enchant will be enough. I used to run this but as I got more experienced abilities like blade cloak or a damage shield or a buff to resists would offset the extra health without dps loss.

Code2501

To offer a contrary viewpoint, not to say anyone here is wrong, but I play a magblade and almost exclusively solo, and I'm running with 20 points in health.
I find that having over 24k health combined with siphoning and the occasional shield lets me solo most WB's fairly well. It takes a bit longer to kill than pure DPS, but its much more forgiving when soloing those tough fights.

That said, If I was to group play much I would probably just stack mag and rely more on shields to soak hits.

Sheuib

If you are DPS always put all you points into your main stat. So, magicka players always put all the points into magicka stat and stamina players always put all the points into stamina. I say this because racials and buffs are calculated off the base number. The points into a stat are part of that base number. So a racial that increases stamina will also increase the amount you get from the points but will not increase the amount you get from armor. If you need more health just get it through armor not through your points.