Hybrids - How to Effectively Implement Split-Attribute Builds (Seriously)

GrumpyDuckling

Implementing more effective hybrid (split-attribute) builds would make ESO more enjoyable. It's unfortunate that we currently see magicka and stamina divides that create a common binary way to play. Below are two suggestions on how to effectively implement hybrid builds into ESO, and a list of benefits (along with one disadvantage) that would be the result of the recommended changes.

1) Scale magicka and stamina abilities off TOTAL attribute points.
This change would allow players to divide attribute points among health, magicka, and stamina as they see fit - entirely for the purposes of resource management and survival - without penalizing the player's damage and healing for splitting their attribute stack.

2) Tweak damage set bonuses to contain BOTH weapon and spell damage (similar to Molag Kena and Clever Alchemist).
This change would allow players to sustain their damage and healing output without having to split sets.

Benefits
- Hybrid builds are more effective.
- Once level 50 is attained, attributes solely impact resource management and survival.
- Players have access to a larger pool of class skills (no more having to avoid specific damage or healing skills because they do not fit a stamina/magicka binary build).

Disadvantage
- Pelinal's Aptitude 5 piece set bonus would have to be changed. The set seems as if it was an attempt at encouraging hybrid builds, but it's impact is harmed by the current attribute-based scaling system.

Solariken

#1 DEFINITELY needs to happen, or even better, remove damage scaling from max resources altogether.

#2 isn't that big of a deal IMO. They could alternatively remove "weapon damage" and "spell damage" stats completely and replace them with a single "weapon potency" type of stat that affects all damage output. It might then be a good idea to scale healing on max resources such that players would have to choose between improving damage or healing.

GrumpyDuckling

Solariken wrote: »

#1 DEFINITELY needs to happen, or even better, remove damage scaling from max resources altogether.

#2 isn't that big of a deal IMO. They could alternatively remove "weapon damage" and "spell damage" stats completely and replace them with a single "weapon potency" type of stat that affects all damage output. It might then be a good idea to scale healing on max resources such that players would have to choose between improving damage or healing.

Loving your input. You've got me thinking even more about fine tuning.

1) Removing damage scaling would be awesome; however I'm slightly worried that it would put too much emphasis on set bonuses to provide damage and healing. ZOS would probably have to implement an entirely new damage/healing formula to compensate. I wouldn't be opposed to it because it's a great idea, but it might be too much work for ZOS to do, realistically.

2) Your idea of "weapon potency" sounds terrific. Perhaps to make it encompass all skills such as class and guild skills (in addition to weapons) we could call it something like "damage potency" and/or "healing potency."

In a non-champion point world I would agree that keeping healing on a max resource scale would be effective. But with champion points in the mix, putting points into Blessed or Elemental Expert might help players distinguish between damage and healing. Ideally, ZOS would differentiate between healing and spell damage. It's just weird that spell damage currently enhances healing power.

acw37162

#1 I can be behind.
#2 I would have to spend a lot more thought on, my first instinct is not so much.

Gilliamtherogue

Solariken wrote: »

#1 DEFINITELY needs to happen, or even better, remove damage scaling from max resources altogether.

#2 isn't that big of a deal IMO. They could alternatively remove "weapon damage" and "spell damage" stats completely and replace them with a single "weapon potency" type of stat that affects all damage output. It might then be a good idea to scale healing on max resources such that players would have to choose between improving damage or healing.

Your idea for "weapon potency" already exists; it's called "Power". It gives a flat amount of Spell and Weapon damage. Moving to a system that used Power instead of individual stats, while removing scaling of Stamina/Magicka would definitely help Hybrid builds feel more effective.

The main issue then lies in having to very very maticulously balance ability damage coefficients. Each ability in the game has a unique scaling coefficient for each point of stamina/magicka + weapon/spell damage you gain X amount of tooltip increase. Removing resource pools from that scaling would mean you'd have to increase the scaling coeffs on Power, while still requiring an incentive to want to have a heart resource pool.

There would likely have to be a sustain rework where speccing into Stamina/Magicka pools directly correlates to how well you can manage resources (Regen would likely be reworked into a flat % of total Resource pool gain, so the higher resource pool you have the more efficient Regen would be). This then brings an entirely new issue of bringing back perma dodge rolling/shielding/streaking/etc, while also severely hindering tank builds as well, and making healers never oom either.

Lots of balance issues with a rework just to make hybrid builds viable, so I don't think we'll see one any time soon.

threefarms

As chief Wiggum once said: "All hybrids are monitored by the government."

I rest my case.

Espica

Maybe they're planning something, the Maelstrom Daggers and Axes' buff increase weapon & spell damage.
Why spell damage if it activates with a melee skill?

Cinbri

Everything that goes somewhere beside max stat is not effective sadly. I just suggest to wait till update coz Wrobel said they working on new mechanic where max hp will have same meaning as max mg/st.

Baconlad

Eh....pelinals set is fine. It will not compete with high end damage dealing roles. But for casual play or even hardcore PvP building hybrid utlizing pelinals is perfectly fine. Also makes for some VERY interesting dueling builds...

Solariken

Baconlad wrote: »

Eh....pelinals set is fine. It will not compete with high end damage dealing roles. But for casual play or even hardcore PvP building hybrid utlizing pelinals is perfectly fine. Also makes for some VERY interesting dueling builds...

I disagree completely. Wearing that set results in a net loss in every meaningful way. All it does is open up a few gimmick builds like stamina beamplar.

DragonBound

Cinbri wrote: »

Everything that goes somewhere beside max stat is not effective sadly. I just suggest to wait till update coz Wrobel said they working on new mechanic where max hp will have same meaning as max mg/st.

Not sure how hp stat will make hybrids more viable though.

ZakuBeta

Maybe it will have a damage mitigation ability to it. Or a way to effect both Magicka and Stamina damage. Or will be the new means of generating the resource pools that are drawn from. Or maybe even the new count for inflicting damage, and the others only give the resource pool available.

Any way you go, they need to untether the damage from the resource pool, or greatly reduce the effect the stat has on the damage done.

Cherryblossom

1) Scale magicka and stamina abilities off TOTAL attribute points.
This change would allow players to divide attribute points among health, magicka, and stamina as they see fit - entirely for the purposes of resource management and survival - without penalizing the player's damage and healing for splitting their attribute stack.

The abilities scale off max STAT not attribute points, the reason sets like hulking and necropotence work is from increasing the stat.
You plan would mean adding more resources would add nothing, it would mean you need to add Power (damage sets) and resource management. This in my opinion would reduce variability for everyone, just so some people can be sub par hybrid build.

ZakuBeta

Cherryblossom wrote: »

1) Scale magicka and stamina abilities off TOTAL attribute points.
This change would allow players to divide attribute points among health, magicka, and stamina as they see fit - entirely for the purposes of resource management and survival - without penalizing the player's damage and healing for splitting their attribute stack.

The abilities scale off max STAT not attribute points, the reason sets like hulking and necropotence work is from increasing the stat.
You plan would mean adding more resources would add nothing, it would mean you need to add Power (damage sets) and resource management. This in my opinion would reduce variability for everyone, just so some people can be sub par hybrid build.

And they're not limited right now? The current way anyone can be "good" just because of the way things are set up and makes "skill" in the game nearly non-existent.

notimetocare

Hybrids did fine with softcaps... There is an easier Solution

Rune_Relic

None of this will work when you can stack buff upon buff without equal and opposite penalty.
A hybrid has to be the viable default state....with specialists moving away from the central core neutral balanced build.

Buff stacking or differentiation (without equal and opposite penalty) = power gap.
Soft caps reduce the power gaps....but do so by compromising build variation.
You just end up with people maximising most if not every cap instead....and being clone hybrid builds.

We want unlimited variation AND viable hybrids (buff + penalty). .....+X > 0 > -X
We dont want unlimited variaiton (buffs only) OR viable hybrids (imposed softcaps)...... +X > 0
Thats impossible with any current game mechanics as there is no instant penalty system in place.

That doesnt mean I am not sympathetic to your post.

The same needs to be done with atttibutes.
0 invested points has to be the default viable hybrid state.
Investing points into any attribute have to have both buff and penalty associated with it, to ensure the hybrid state always remains viable.

We want balanced differentiation (horizontal progression)....not unbalanced amplification (vertical progression)