The Black Rose- Lore?

Savos_Saren

With most sets in this game- there seems to be a background lore story to them. (ie- Kagrenac, Hunding, etc...) Does anyone know if Black Rose actually pertains to any Elder Scrolls lore? Or is it just a cool name that ZoS came up with? Thanks!

RinaldoGandolphi

Ebonarm.

He wore a suit of ebony armor and shield with a rose insignia on them. He is the God of War of Tamriel until Talos supercedes him later on.

Jim_Pipp

BlackRose is a really interesting city in Argonia

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Blackrose

Home of the (now missing) fox people.

susmitds

It is about Reymon Ebonarm, the Black Knight who wore a black armor with a rose insignia. And, he is Yokudan God of War and practically an enemy of every Daedra except Sheogorath and also the enemy of most Aedra, like Stendarr and Arkay. And no he was not replaced by Talos, he was not one of the Eight to begin with. He was a god of Yokudan religion, which is significantly different from the main Tamrilian religion. He was also one of man-gods or a human being who transcended to godhood. The Warrior, some believe, to be an aspect of him.

Savos_Saren

See? And this is why I love the ESO community. Thanks guys!

RinaldoGandolphi

Reyman Ebonarm isn't exactly a Yokudan God(Sure they worshipped him), but he has been around much much much longer then that, and was revered by a different name in the Age's Before Men.

1. How do we know Reyman Ebonarm isn't an Yokudan God?

Answer: In the book King Edward Part X, Ebonarm is refered to as "Elven God" along with Mara, Springseed.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:King_Edward,_Part_X

"No! My Lord Ebonarm, no!" The cry was wrenched from Lucky's heart. "I cannot. I implore you. Do not ask it of me ... leave me something of my own! Why must I always give it all to others? I'm tired of it! You promised me a life, and what you gave me, that endless wandering, was not a life!" The black knight Ebonarm scowled back at Lucky.

"We are a gentle folk," the wood elf bard said in his musical voice, "yet Zenithar can no longer be restrained. And if he wars against you, the other elven gods stand with him! If the gods war, Tamriel itself may be destroyed. You may find daedra to stand with you; they love chaos. But I think you will find that not even Springseed, Ebonarm and Mara will fight for you if you defy them further."

Other is taken in context meaning" The rest of". So Ebonarms roots are "Elvish" in nature not Yokudan.

2. Who iis Ebonarm?

Answer: The short version. He is a mantling/fusion of Trinimac and Remen Cyrodiil.

The Long Version:

Ebonarm is clad in Ebony Armor. What is Ebony?

Answer: Ebony is the Blood of Lorkhan.

Who tore out Lorhkan Heart?

Answer: Trinimac

“Finally Trinimac, Auri-El's greatest knight, knocked Lorkhan down in front of his army and reached in with more than hands to take his Heart…” – Excerpt From ‘The Monomyth’

Tearing out someone elses heart is a bloody affair, Trinimac being covered in Lorhkan's Blood it fused becoming the 1st ever set of Ebony Armor. The Ebony Mail(Boethiah's Daedric Artifact) Is infact Trinimac/Ebonarm's Ebony Armor.(More on that later, this will make sense in a minute)

How did this happen?

After Trinimac killed Lorhkan, and tore out his heart, was wearing his blood, and was telling everyone Lorhkan was a trickster and a fraud, this made Boethiah MAD as Lorhkan is Boethiah's Brother/Sister! So Boethith tricked Trinimac and banished him to the Ash Pits and assumed his form speaking blashphemies and Trinimac became the hateful Daedric Prince of spurned and the ostracized, the keeper of the Sworn Oath, and the Bloody Curse. After vanquishing Trinimac, Boethiath took poession of Trinimac's Ebony Armor(Blood of his brother Lorhkan) and took it as his own, and it would later become the Ebony Mail..one of Boethiath's Daedric Artifacts.

This transformation of Trinimac into Malacath left the Sphere of Influence occupied by Trinimac(strength, honor, and unity, and war) unfilled. As he was also Auri-El strongest knight and the strongestl of the Aedra.

How does Remen Cyrodiil fit into this?

Remen Cyrodiil is a bit of a mystery.(I'll get to shortly) He was born as a union between King Hrol and the spirit of St.Alessia. This union killed King Hrol, but gave rise to Remen who was found on a hilltop that had formed later on the place of his creation, with Chim-el Adabal that had been lost for centuries.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Remanada

But after nine months that mound of mud became as a small mountain, and there were whispers among the shepherds and bulls. A small community of believers gathered around that growing hill during the days of its first churning, and they were the first to name it the Golden Hill, Sancre Tor. And it was the shepherdess Sed-Yenna who dared climb the hill when she heard his first cry, and at its peak she saw what it had yielded, an infant she named Reman, which is "Light of Man."

And in the child's forehead was the Chim-el Adabal, alive with the dragon-fires of yore and divine promise, and none dared obstruct Sed-Yenna when she climbed the steps of White-Gold Tower to place the babe Reman on his Throne, where he spoke as an adult, saying I AM CYRODIIL COME.

As an infant he was able to speak as an adult, and ruled Cyrodiil.

Pelinal Whitestrake met Remen thousands of years before his birth, this is talked about in the songs of Pelinal:

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/skyrim-song-pelinal

Pelinal Whitestrake was the enemy of all elfkind that lived in Cyrod in those days. Mainly, though, he took it upon himself to slay the sorcerer-kings of the Ayleids in pre-arranged open combats rather than at war; the fields of rebellion he left to the growing armies of the Paravania and his bull nephew. Pelinal called out Haromir of Copper and Tea into a duel at the Tor, and ate his neck-veins while screaming praise to Reman, a name that no one knew yet.- Song of Pelinal v3

Pelinal and Remen are kinda tied together and its kinda a mystery, As we know Pelinal Whitestrake, Harald Hairy Breeks, Hans The Fox, Wulfharth, Ysmir, etc were all Shezarrines(Avatars sent by Shor) and Remen is tied to these Shezarines. Hence why Remen was given the name "Wordly God" and "Light of Man"

During the events of Remen life, He inadvertently "Mantled" Trinimac. Upon his death, what was left of Trinimac's sphere of influence and ideals(The good aspects of Trinimac) melded together with Remen(The Worldly God and Light of Man) forming Ebonarm.(This is why Malacath is not lying when he says Trinimac is gone)

After the events of the Warp in the West, Talos superscedes Ebonarm and absorbs most of his sphere of influence becomes part of the Talos Oversoul

(Remember, Wulfharth, Zurin Arctus, and Tiber Septim make up that Oversoul. Wulfhath is part of Pelinal Whitestrake, Harald Hairy Breeks, Hans the Fox, etc Shezzarines)

In the 4th Era, an avatar of Ebonarm(The Ebony Warrior) challenges the Last Dragonborn to a fight to the death. Its a test to see if the Last Dragonborn is worthy of becoming part of the Talos Oversoul. He is a Redguard(Ebonarm was revered in Hammerfell and Illiac Bay)This aspect of Ebonarm is able to shout with the Th'uum because he is taking on his Remen personality. (Remen was able to Shout at the battle of Pale Pass causing the Akaviri to surrender)

I know this is a lot of text, but the in game books from Daggerfall onwards give us hints on what happened to Ebonarm. After the Warp in the West, He still exists as an aspect of the Talos Oversoul, but he is no longer his own individual deity. During the events of ESO(Before Talos birth) He is still a mantling of Remen and Trinimac, and the Warrior is an aspect of him.

I hope this makes sense, its a lot to take in, but the ingame books leave a lot to allegory and symbolism. I think so many questions about Ebonarm is what made Bethesda put the Ebony Warrior in Skyrim, making him a Redguard yet he is able to shout like Remen.

WalksonGraves

This is why elderscrolls has always been one of my favorite rpgs, the amazing level of world crafting that went into the lore. I spent half my time in Morrowind reading books.

OutLaw_Nynx

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

BlackRose is a really interesting city in Argonia

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Blackrose

Home of the (now missing) fox people.

Fox people

wenchmore420b14_ESO

OutLaw_Nynx wrote: »

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

BlackRose is a really interesting city in Argonia

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Blackrose

Home of the (now missing) fox people.

Fox people

"The Lilmothiit (meaning "one who is from Lilmoth" in Ta'agra), also called the Fox-Folk, were a vulpine (fox-like) beast race who once inhabited Black Marsh. They were said by some to be related to the Khajiit of Elsweyr. The Lilmothiit were a nomadic tribal group, and left few enduring signs of their existence. They founded the settlement of Blackrose, the ruins of which were later turned into a prison by the Akaviri Potentate Versidue-Shaie in the Second Era.
Similar to the Kothringi, the Lilmothiit became extinct following the devastation of the Knahaten Flu in the mid-Second Era.

Jim_Pipp

Interesting Fox-Folk-Fact.

They are presumed to die out during the knatchean flu (probably mispelled that). At the time of the elder scrolls the flu is still spreading, so it is not certain they are extinct yet..

Cinbri

And while we here I have question that bother me for long time: what does Kagrenac's Hope set name means? Does it imply to wearer of set as last hope of kagrenac? If so, hope for what? if not, does set itself server as hope or what meaning of hope in this set?

wenchmore420b14_ESO

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

Interesting Fox-Folk-Fact.

They are presumed to die out during the knatchean flu (probably mispelled that). At the time of the elder scrolls the flu is still spreading, so it is not certain they are extinct yet..

The Knahaten Flu ran from 2E560-561, which is about 30years before ESO, so they are probably gone by now..

WhiteCoatSyndrome

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

Interesting Fox-Folk-Fact.

They are presumed to die out during the knatchean flu (probably mispelled that). At the time of the elder scrolls the flu is still spreading, so it is not certain they are extinct yet..

The Knahaten Flu ran from 2E560-561, which is about 30years before ESO, so they are probably gone by now..

IIRC there were still pockets of it after that. I seem to remember the fellow making the 'Improved Emperor's Guide to Tamriel' ran across...I think it was Goblins?...that had been infected. *checks* Yup; here we are. And the Author's Foreward has the date in the year 578.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

Interesting Fox-Folk-Fact.

They are presumed to die out during the knatchean flu (probably mispelled that). At the time of the elder scrolls the flu is still spreading, so it is not certain they are extinct yet..

The Knahaten Flu ran from 2E560-561, which is about 30years before ESO, so they are probably gone by now..

IIRC there were still pockets of it after that. I seem to remember the fellow making the 'Improved Emperor's Guide to Tamriel' ran across...I think it was Goblins?...that had been infected. *checks* Yup; here we are. And the Author's Foreward has the date in the year 578.

Awesome! Thank you for info! Huzzah!

Jim_Pipp

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

Interesting Fox-Folk-Fact.

They are presumed to die out during the knatchean flu (probably mispelled that). At the time of the elder scrolls the flu is still spreading, so it is not certain they are extinct yet..

The Knahaten Flu ran from 2E560-561, which is about 30years before ESO, so they are probably gone by now..

You are probably right, the last case of knahaten flu is in 2E603, but in all likelihood the damage is done by then.

Enodoc

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

2. Who iis Ebonarm?

Answer: The short version. He is a mantling/fusion of Trinimac and Remen Cyrodiil.

The Long Version:

[...]

Pelinal and Remen are kinda tied together and its kinda a mystery, As we know Pelinal Whitestrake, Harald Hairy Breeks, Hans The Fox, Wulfharth, Ysmir, etc were all Shezarrines(Avatars sent by Shor) and Remen is tied to these Shezarines. Hence why Remen was given the name "Wordly God" and "Light of Man"

During the events of Remen life, He inadvertently "Mantled" Trinimac. Upon his death, what was left of Trinimac's sphere of influence and ideals(The good aspects of Trinimac) melded together with Remen(The Worldly God and Light of Man) forming Ebonarm.(This is why Malacath is not lying when he says Trinimac is gone)

After the events of the Warp in the West, Talos superscedes Ebonarm and absorbs most of his sphere of influence becomes part of the Talos Oversoul

Some interesting stuff there! I don't think I see the connection between Reman and the Shezarrines, though. Is it due to his theorised unnatural conception, or something else? That only mentions Alessia, which only solidifies Reman's legitimacy as a Dragonborn heir, not any connection to Shezarrines that I can see. What are the sources for the theory that Reman mantled Trinimac?