nMA, nDSA: Provide Stepping-stone Weapons for Stepping-stone Players

Savos_Saren

With the fuss in the forums about whether it's a ban-able offense to have someone run vMA for someone else (I guess there's a loop hole if it's "sharing the game" vs "sharing an account")- I'd propose that ZoS should do as they did before One Tamriel: They should offer lower-level Master/Maelstrom weapons for completion on normal mode. (ie: you can only get CP150 on normal mode... even if you're a CP160 character)

Before people begin to tar and feather me, here's the logic behind it:

"Normal modes" are supposed to be a stepping stone to get you to "Veteran mode". There's plenty of players who are "casuals" that would like to work their way up to the "elite" status. They should be rewarded with a "casual" version of the Master/Maelstrom weapon and then they can use said weapon to work their way through the veteran version.

- It makes the game more enjoyable for people who aren't dedicated gamers.
- A non-elite player can bring better DPS to dungeons or trials. (and bring better DPS when attempting to learn veteran trials)
- It may preemptively keep people from paying others for completion of the veteran arena. Thus keeping them from having a false title, Stormproof, and bringing crappy game mechanics to dungeons and trials.
- Elite players with Master/Maelstrom weapons create a large DPS gap between normal players with normal weapons. Put a normal version of a Maelstrom weapon in a normal player's hands... and they can bring much better DPS to a trial... helping close the DPS gap from 15-20k DPS and 40k DPS. I'd think that a normal player with a normal MA staff could reach 30k. (a nice compromise that would help the whole group)
- The Maelstrom Arena is a DPS race. Period. You don't run it on tanks. You don't run it on healers. There are players out there who are dedicated tanks or healers. Maelstrom drops a tank sword and a healer staff. A dedicated tank or healer can, at least, create a DPS character and attempt nMA or nDSA to get their sword/staff. Eventually, they can build their DPS character to attempt vDSA/vMA. This would also encourage players to branch out and try new roles... without the disheartening effect of a healer attempting vMA for a Maelstrom Resto staff.

...I'd much rather play with someone who isn't "elite" running a CP150 Master/Maelstrom weapon (who actually earned it through their own skill) than to have someone who paid someone else to complete the arena... because now they're just inexperienced players with crappy mechanics and a nice weapon (which they'll probably use as a crutch to support their crappy mechanics).

As this forum has said over and over when it comes to titles, weapons, and skills: If you want it, earn it. It's okay if you earn a weaker version of a Maelstrom or DSA weapon. That's fine! At least you earned it! This game is about progress and building up your character and abilities. A CP150 Master/Maelstrom weapon helps build your character to become a better character.

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_RichLambert

Edited to only say "CP150" since "CP140" wouldn't really be helpful at all. Thanks for the correction!

Paulington

A CP140-150 Master or Maelstrom weapon would give you less damage than a normal CP160 version of a crafted set.

People keep having to say it, but you do not need a Maelstrom weapon to do good levels of damage which nullifies this entire argument.

Do you want to do good DPS? Find a guide on Tamriel Foundry for your class/spec and get that gear with some small modifications. Even stamina can do more than enough DPS to complete every single Veteran trial in the game without Maelstrom weapons and for magicka you can do essentially equivalent DPS.

Woeler

Having maelstrom weapons is not magically going to turn bad players into good players.

Reorx_Holybeard

I've always wanted to see something like this that provides a bridge to obtaining vMA weapons. I've never really understood the wide hatred of any idea that is brought up relating to making vMA obtainable to a larger population. Its like everryone thinks that "I had to slog through 500 rounds of vMA to get my sharpened Inferno staff so everyone else in the future of ESO has to as well".

cp140 or cp150 vMA weapons from normal seems like a fine idea and still gives a notable advantage to completing vMA over nMA. Another option would be to create a "lesser" vMA weapon/enchantment that nMA would reward (easier to balance but more work for the devs). I'd also love to see another mode for Maelstrom in-between what veteran and normal is now. Perhaps make veteran a little easier and introduce "hard mode" Maelstrom along with an appropriately better reward (tokens or a choice in weapon and/or trait to make farming easier).

Erock25

cp150 gear is USELESS. As someone else said, you're better off running a setless cp160 weapon than a master/maelstrom cp150 weapon. This is coming from a guy who desperately needs cp 160 masters sword (sharpened) and cp 160 maelstrom axe/dagger (sharpened). cp150 EVERYTHING works besides weapons. For some reason ZOS decided it would be a huge weapon dmg bump from gold cp150 to gold cp160 while armor values and set bonuses stay relatively the same.

Wollust

Why do people still believe that those weapons are gonna help them in any way? If you are bad, you are still gona be bad even with those weapons. And CP 140 MSA weapons are not even worth it compared to random CP160 weapons.

SJD_Phoenix

Everyone who completed vMA did so once without maelstrom weapons. Obviously then it can be done with the right build and skill. If you cannot complete it it's either your build or a L2P issue (this is coming from someone who hasn't completed it themself.

Drummerx04

Paulington wrote: »

A CP140-150 Master or Maelstrom weapon would give you less damage than a normal CP160 version of a crafted set.

People keep having to say it, but you do not need a Maelstrom weapon to do good levels of damage which nullifies this entire argument.

Do you want to do good DPS? Find a guide on Tamriel Foundry for your class/spec and get that gear with some small modifications. Even stamina can do more than enough DPS to complete every single Veteran trial in the game without Maelstrom weapons and for magicka you can do essentially equivalent DPS.

I really couldn't have said this better myself. And honestly if you are concerned about people not having earned vMA/vDSA weapons, then seeing them equip a lower level version of the items is almost as dishonest.

A few other things:

• vMA resto staff and tank weapons are borderline pointless.
• vMA desto staves only add around 2k ST dps if light weaving isn't broken that day.
• vDSA resto staff is nice but really isn't that powerful. Better than a setless staff for sure, but not by much.
• vDSA tank sword is again nice but can end up taking the slot of a more group beneficial 5-piece bonus.

Essentially, no. With 1T there are so many sets that are readily available. Just use those.

Savos_Saren

Woeler wrote: »

Having maelstrom weapons is not magically going to turn bad players into good players.

That's not what I'm saying at all. It's supposed to support normal, decent players on their way to becoming excellent players.

Savos_Saren

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

I've always wanted to see something like this that provides a bridge to obtaining vMA weapons. I've never really understood the wide hatred of any idea that is brought up relating to making vMA obtainable to a larger population. Its like everryone thinks that "I had to slog through 500 rounds of vMA to get my sharpened Inferno staff so everyone else in the future of ESO has to as well".

cp140 or cp150 vMA weapons from normal seems like a fine idea and still gives a notable advantage to completing vMA over nMA. Another option would be to create a "lesser" vMA weapon/enchantment that nMA would reward (easier to balance but more work for the devs). I'd also love to see another mode for Maelstrom in-between what veteran and normal is now. Perhaps make veteran a little easier and introduce "hard mode" Maelstrom along with an appropriately better reward (tokens or a choice in weapon and/or trait to make farming easier).

Exactly my point. For some reason, forum junkies have a tendency to believe that there's only "bad players" and "elite players". There's "normal" players, too. Good tanks, good healers, and good DPSes. Maybe they aren't ready for vet trials... but they damn sure can hold their own in vet dungeons and normal trials.

There's plenty of builds that could run a CP160 5pc set with CP160 3pc jewelry and CP160 2pc Monster set... with a CP150 Master/Maelstrom weapon. That's perfectly fine!

Just like a PVP tank running two CP160 5pc sets, a single CP160 monster piece, and a CP150 Master's Sword would be good, too. Not because of the damage... but because of the self heal and extra health.

DRXHarbinger

Seriously. If you can't beat vma then go without. It's not hard at all once you've done it. It's a year old now and seriously anyone playing for over a year should have smashed it over and over. If not...then Christ only knows what the hell you've been doing for the past year.

PVP argument on having to pve...you get plenty of pvp only sets so gtfo and make do, you're evidently not as beast as you think you are.

Savos_Saren

Wollust wrote: »

Why do people still believe that those weapons are gonna help them in any way? If you are bad, you are still gona be bad even with those weapons. And CP 140 MSA weapons are not even worth it compared to random CP160 weapons.

See? It's this garbage logic that poisons these forums. "If you are bad, you are still gona be bad even with those weapons."

What if you're GOOD? Can't a CP150 Master's Sword or Resto Staff make your build a little better? Or a CP150 Maelstrom bow or 2H could help a decent player be better...

Why is it that people always default to thinking people are bad players? There's a such thing as good players that bridge the gap between bad players and excellent (elite) players.

I do agree though, on second thought, a CP140 Master/Maelstrom weapon would be garbage. Perhaps CP150 as a nMA/nDSA drop would be better.

Edit: I'll edit my initial post to say "CP150 Master/Maelstrom weapon".

Erock25

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Paulington wrote: »

A CP140-150 Master or Maelstrom weapon would give you less damage than a normal CP160 version of a crafted set.

People keep having to say it, but you do not need a Maelstrom weapon to do good levels of damage which nullifies this entire argument.

Do you want to do good DPS? Find a guide on Tamriel Foundry for your class/spec and get that gear with some small modifications. Even stamina can do more than enough DPS to complete every single Veteran trial in the game without Maelstrom weapons and for magicka you can do essentially equivalent DPS.

I really couldn't have said this better myself. And honestly if you are concerned about people not having earned vMA/vDSA weapons, then seeing them equip a lower level version of the items is almost as dishonest.

A few other things:

• vMA resto staff and tank weapons are borderline pointless.
• vMA desto staves only add around 2k ST dps if light weaving isn't broken that day.
• vDSA resto staff is nice but really isn't that powerful. Better than a setless staff for sure, but not by much.
• vDSA tank sword is again nice but can end up taking the slot of a more group beneficial 5-piece bonus.

Essentially, no. With 1T there are so many sets that are readily available. Just use those.

@Drummerx04 why is vma resto useless? Magicka on rapid regen crit is pretty nice, no?

Sallington

" I'd think that a normal player with a normal MA staff could reach 30k. "

Thanks OP, this gave me a good laugh.

Sallington

jaburns wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

Why do people still believe that those weapons are gonna help them in any way? If you are bad, you are still gona be bad even with those weapons. And CP 140 MSA weapons are not even worth it compared to random CP160 weapons.

See? It's this garbage logic that poisons these forums. "If you are bad, you are still gona be bad even with those weapons."

What if you're GOOD? Can't a CP150 Master's Sword or Resto Staff make your build a little better? Or a CP150 Maelstrom bow or 2H could help a decent player be better...

Why is it that people always default to thinking people are bad players? There's a such thing as good players that bridge the gap between bad players and excellent (elite) players.

I do agree though, on second thought, a CP140 Master/Maelstrom weapon would be garbage. Perhaps CP150 as a nMA/nDSA drop would be better.

Edit: I'll edit my initial post to say "CP150 Master/Maelstrom weapon".

CP150 weapons would still be garbage. The difference between a gold cp150 and cp160 weapon is too huge.

And even if this type of player was handed cp160 vMA weapons, if they are not a good enough player to clear vMA, then they won't be hitting 30-40k dps I dont care what gear they're wearing.

Meowmeow13

As someone above rightly pointed out, the people who have beaten vMA already, did it without these cp 150 versions of the gear. So if that's the case, isn't it more insulting to the "normal" players, as you put it, that their only way to beat vMA is by having a new set of gear added to help them?

vMA is hard the 1st time, sure that's a given, it took me 4 months of trying to get it done the 1st time. Most people I play with got it done with a few weeks of practice. Now they can comfortably clear it in a few hours.

Saying it is a DPS race to is disingenuous. My 1st clear was on a tanky character pulling 10k dps and a max of 15k burst. This is more then enough to clear each arena if you learn the mechanics. These mechanics are shown in normal mode so you could study them with a few runs in that form.

vMA weapons will not solve all your problems, sitting down and trying it, struggling, failing and learning from your mistakes will help you far more in the long run.

So to sum up, don't expect to get stuff changed or given to you to clear something that can be done with any class. as long as you have cp 160+ and cp 160 gear and a willing attitude, vMA is beatable.

Jim_Pipp

COMPLETELY AGREE -

This 'stepping stone' approach offers a lot to more casual players without undermining the achievements of veteran content.

I would have suggested the lower-level rewards are CP 160 with reduced enchantments, so the rewards are viable, and would allow casual players to experiment with one-piece ability altering effects.

Destruent

jaburns wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

Why do people still believe that those weapons are gonna help them in any way? If you are bad, you are still gona be bad even with those weapons. And CP 140 MSA weapons are not even worth it compared to random CP160 weapons.

See? It's this garbage logic that poisons these forums. "If you are bad, you are still gona be bad even with those weapons."

What if you're GOOD? Can't a CP150 Master's Sword or Resto Staff make your build a little better? Or a CP150 Maelstrom bow or 2H could help a decent player be better...

If you equip CP150 weapons instead of C160 weapons you will decrease your DPS/performance. How does this help at all?

You also do not get a better player by wearing better gear, you just get better results (but not in this case ). Learn your class/roll and you will get a better player...not by equipping different things...

Hamiltonmath

Well, to play Devil's Advocate here - If CP150 gear doesn't help at all, why not give it to them then?

I've shared my story and I will say that the first time you beat it is disgusting hard, and then you get better and then you start beating it without trying. It's a great feeling. Don't rob yourself of that feeling just because you want easy mode. It has made my game so much better.

Destruent

Hamiltonmath wrote: »

Well, to play Devil's Advocate here - If CP150 gear doesn't help at all, why not give it to them then?

I've shared my story and I will say that the first time you beat it is disgusting hard, and then you get better and then you start beating it without trying. It's a great feeling. Don't rob yourself of that feeling just because you want easy mode. It has made my game so much better.

Sure, just give it to them. But there are already enough useless items in the game. Why should we need even more?

Drummerx04

Erock25 wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Paulington wrote: »

A CP140-150 Master or Maelstrom weapon would give you less damage than a normal CP160 version of a crafted set.

People keep having to say it, but you do not need a Maelstrom weapon to do good levels of damage which nullifies this entire argument.

Do you want to do good DPS? Find a guide on Tamriel Foundry for your class/spec and get that gear with some small modifications. Even stamina can do more than enough DPS to complete every single Veteran trial in the game without Maelstrom weapons and for magicka you can do essentially equivalent DPS.

I really couldn't have said this better myself. And honestly if you are concerned about people not having earned vMA/vDSA weapons, then seeing them equip a lower level version of the items is almost as dishonest.

A few other things:

• vMA resto staff and tank weapons are borderline pointless.
• vMA desto staves only add around 2k ST dps if light weaving isn't broken that day.
• vDSA resto staff is nice but really isn't that powerful. Better than a setless staff for sure, but not by much.
• vDSA tank sword is again nice but can end up taking the slot of a more group beneficial 5-piece bonus.

Essentially, no. With 1T there are so many sets that are readily available. Just use those.

@Drummerx04 why is vma resto useless? Magicka on rapid regen crit is pretty nice, no?

I said it was borderline pointless, not completely useless.

iirc it restores something like 400 magicka to the caster on regeneration crit with a 4-6 second cooldown. In something like a trial, you'd need to sacrifice a valuable bar slot to obtain this effect which amounts to maybe an extra 200 magicka regen.

I was healing vMoL and vAA last night with about 1700 mag regen on my templar healer. And the lowest my magicka ever got was 50% while throwing out orbs/shards/combat prayer/springs/BoL in a fairly continuous stream. The occasional trash pot was all that was needed to push my magicka back into "safe" ranges. The extra crit is nice I guess, but I would prefer spell damage personally.

So the effect just isn't necessary or helpful imo. I use a vMA resto staff only because I got one in gold from weekly rewards. I don't run regeneration so right now the enchant is only giving me crit.

LadyNalcarya

and they can bring much better DPS to a trial... helping close the DPS gap from 15-20k DPS and 40k DPS. I'd think that a normal player with a normal MA staff could reach 30k. (a nice compromise that would help the whole group)

Umm... You dont have vMA staff, right?
It only adds 2-3k dps with already good rotation. I doubt it would be more that 1k for those who pull 15k-ish.
Not to mention that many top tier builds only use it on offbar.

I think that they should just revert that silly "BoP only" change for trial gear, so people who just started raiding would be motivated. Remember how popular the trials were when you could loot something like Elegant sword or Worm Cult jewelry from them?

Lukums1

Man oh MAN.

I did my first clear CP 220 ok fine it was magicka sorc but whatever.

I now ( believe it not CHOOSE not to run it with maelstrom weapons x2 sharpen daggers ) thats right I choose! NOT TO.

Having 5 vo, 5 nightmothers, 2 sellistrix in my opinion is more optimum and kinda more fun!


Ever feel disheartened? Watch my twitch stream with full prosperous blue gear clearing it fun times.

IwakuraLain42

Paulington wrote: »

Do you want to do good DPS? Find a guide on Tamriel Foundry for your class/spec and get that gear with some small modifications. Even stamina can do more than enough DPS to complete every single Veteran trial in the game without Maelstrom weapons and for magicka you can do essentially equivalent DPS.

For stamina build (esp. stamblades) that is a myth. Virtually all build out there require the use of either vMSA or vDSA weapons. If there are alternatives mentioned then it's usually one of the same old HR/Agility/Monsterset variation.

In my (very personal) opinion that's because these weapons are strong that nobody really bothers looking for alternatives anymore. I had hoped that One Tamriel would change that, but apparently that hasn't happened (yet ?).

Destruent

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

Paulington wrote: »

Do you want to do good DPS? Find a guide on Tamriel Foundry for your class/spec and get that gear with some small modifications. Even stamina can do more than enough DPS to complete every single Veteran trial in the game without Maelstrom weapons and for magicka you can do essentially equivalent DPS.

For stamina build (esp. stamblades) that is a myth. Virtually all build out there require the use of either vMSA or vDSA weapons. If there are alternatives mentioned then it's usually one of the same old HR/Agility/Monsterset variation.

In my (very personal) opinion that's because these weapons are strong that nobody really bothers looking for alternatives anymore. I had hoped that One Tamriel would change that, but apparently that hasn't happened (yet ?).

Use 2 5pc-sets + monstersets --> Do DPS. easy as that. There are more than enough possibilites to have good gear without msa-weapons. If you can't do good DPS without MSA-weapons, you won't do good DPS with them either.

IwakuraLain42

Destruent wrote: »

Use 2 5pc-sets + monstersets --> Do DPS. easy as that. There are more than enough possibilites to have good gear without msa-weapons. If you can't do good DPS without MSA-weapons, you won't do good DPS with them either.

You're missing my point. Either the build usees some of the new sets+MSA weapons or the same old sets like HR or NMG. Yes you can do good dps with these, but you are usually constricted to a dps rate between 20-25 k (assuming a flawless rotation).
That is a glass ceiling that nobody tries to break because the MSA weapons are so overpowered that few people care. This makes running a stamina class very boring ...

Destruent

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Use 2 5pc-sets + monstersets --> Do DPS. easy as that. There are more than enough possibilites to have good gear without msa-weapons. If you can't do good DPS without MSA-weapons, you won't do good DPS with them either.

You're missing my point. Either the build usees some of the new sets+MSA weapons or the same old sets like HR or NMG. Yes you can do good dps with these, but you are usually constricted to a dps rate between 20-25 k (assuming a flawless rotation).
That is a glass ceiling that nobody tries to break because the MSA weapons are so overpowered that few people care. This makes running a stamina class very boring ...

No, that's wrong. You can do far more than 20...25k DPS. Your DPS will not skyrocket just bc you have maelstrome-weapons. It may go up to 30k DPS...maybe a little bit more (depending on build/class).

DannyLV702

Let normal drop cp140 weapons and I'll be cool with that.

Savos_Saren

I think people are missing the point of this post. I know I've mentioned DPS in here... but let's not restrict the discussion to DPS only. Tell me this:

-How would it hurt a PVE group for their healer to run a 5pc CP160 gear set, 3pc CP160 jewelry set, 2 pc Monster Helm, and a CP150 Maelstrom Resto Staff?

-How would it hurt a PVP tank to run with a 5pc CP160 gear set, another 5pc CP160 gear set, a single pc of a Monster set, and a CP150 Master's Sword?

Destruent

jaburns wrote: »

I think people are missing the point of this post. I know I've mentioned DPS in here... but let's not restrict the discussion to DPS only. Tell me this:

-How would it hurt a PVE group for their healer to run a 5pc CP160 gear set, 3pc CP160 jewelry set, 2 pc Monster Helm, and a CP150 Maelstrom Resto Staff?

-How would it hurt a PVP tank to run with a 5pc CP160 gear set, another 5pc CP160 gear set, a single pc of a Monster set, and a CP150 Master's Sword?

Healer: less healing than with a random CP160 staff

Tank: no crusher enchant (less support) + less offdps/healing

Savos_Saren

Destruent wrote: »

jaburns wrote: »

I think people are missing the point of this post. I know I've mentioned DPS in here... but let's not restrict the discussion to DPS only. Tell me this:

-How would it hurt a PVE group for their healer to run a 5pc CP160 gear set, 3pc CP160 jewelry set, 2 pc Monster Helm, and a CP150 Maelstrom Resto Staff?

-How would it hurt a PVP tank to run with a 5pc CP160 gear set, another 5pc CP160 gear set, a single pc of a Monster set, and a CP150 Master's Sword?

Healer: less healing than with a random CP160 staff

Tank: no crusher enchant (less support) + less offdps/healing

But you'd have more self-sustainability with those enchantments. Which means that they can heal more often or survive longer.