Not enough magicka for templar?

SanSan

I decided to try a magicka templar and i got it to 30. I'm constantly running out of magicka. I played a magicka sorc/nb and haven't been running out as much.
Am i doing something wrong or do they get more magicka later on?

Lexxypwns

Templars best sustain skill and Passives are later in class lines.

WhiteMage

Gonna need more information here. What's your regen? Do you have any cost reduction? Any particular things you are doing when you run out of magicka? Are you using channeled focus? Is this general, overworld play?

SanSan

WhiteMage wrote: »

Gonna need more information here. What's your regen? Do you have any cost reduction? Any particular things you are doing when you run out of magicka? Are you using channeled focus? Is this general, overworld play?

I can't check at the moment. I don't have channel focus yet. Maybe around 1k magicka regen? I'm using regen staff heavy attk passive to get mag back.

WhiteMage

Unaided, 1k regen tends to deplete fairly quickly. At higher levels you will get more tools to maintain your magicka, so suffice to say: yes, you will get more magicka later on. Channeled focus is an effective 480 increase to magicka regen. If you're gearing up for PvP, you will need more than 1k regen which should come from set bonuses and/or jewelry enchants.

newtinmpls

When you get the rhythm of the "alternate everything with heavy attacks" AND don't over-heal - things will be much better.

Drdeath20

Less reliance on BoL helps. Try to get your health over times to help you keep up. They are cheaper

James-Wayne

Actually Templar is probably the worst when it comes to sustain, stamina have Repentence, magicka have Channeled Focus but they are not great for sustaining not compared to other classes anyway.

I've play'ed Templar as my main since beta and can verify this, they can cope in higher levels but are they not great with sustain even at higher levels.

Mojmir

James-Wayne wrote: »

Actually Templar is probably the worst when it comes to sustain, stamina have Repentence, magicka have Channeled Focus but they are not great for sustaining not compared to other classes anyway.

I've play'ed Templar as my main since beta and can verify this, they can cope in higher levels but are they not great with sustain even at higher levels.

I disagree, magicka dk is worse for sustain. Templars can at least drop focus,best dk has is else drain.

Destruent

Mojmir wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

Actually Templar is probably the worst when it comes to sustain, stamina have Repentence, magicka have Channeled Focus but they are not great for sustaining not compared to other classes anyway.

I've play'ed Templar as my main since beta and can verify this, they can cope in higher levels but are they not great with sustain even at higher levels.

I disagree, magicka dk is worse for sustain. Templars can at least drop focus,best dk has is else drain.

It depends on the content. For group PvE magicka templars have the worst sustain. Magicka-DK is easy-mode compared to this. Don't forget about the ultimates...they are great for sustain in pve for DKs...

the_man_of_steal

SanSan wrote: »

I decided to try a magicka templar and i got it to 30. I'm constantly running out of magicka. I played a magicka sorc/nb and haven't been running out as much.
Am i doing something wrong or do they get more magicka later on?

I am a high elf Mag Templar and will tell you, unless you go vamp, your sustain is going to be tough... I am not a vamp (highly considering it) but I use Harness Magicka and 3 Transmutation pieces to offset my horrendous 950 mag regen. With trans and the purple halloween recipe for max mag, max health, and mag regen, I bring that up to almost 1400.

I say these numbers are "horrendous" because on my stamina woodelf, unbuffed I am at 2,000 stam regen without even trying...

James-Wayne

Destruent wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

Actually Templar is probably the worst when it comes to sustain, stamina have Repentence, magicka have Channeled Focus but they are not great for sustaining not compared to other classes anyway.

I've play'ed Templar as my main since beta and can verify this, they can cope in higher levels but are they not great with sustain even at higher levels.

I disagree, magicka dk is worse for sustain. Templars can at least drop focus,best dk has is else drain.

It depends on the content. For group PvE magicka templars have the worst sustain. Magicka-DK is easy-mode compared to this. Don't forget about the ultimates...they are great for sustain in pve for DKs...

Agree. Dks activate a ultimate from Battle Roar and they get 70% of the ultimate's cost on all three attributes. Helping hands restores 5% Stamina, Draw Essence restores Magicka etc

old_mufasa

James-Wayne wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

Actually Templar is probably the worst when it comes to sustain, stamina have Repentence, magicka have Channeled Focus but they are not great for sustaining not compared to other classes anyway.

I've play'ed Templar as my main since beta and can verify this, they can cope in higher levels but are they not great with sustain even at higher levels.

I disagree, magicka dk is worse for sustain. Templars can at least drop focus,best dk has is else drain.

It depends on the content. For group PvE magicka templars have the worst sustain. Magicka-DK is easy-mode compared to this. Don't forget about the ultimates...they are great for sustain in pve for DKs...

Agree. Dks activate a ultimate from Battle Roar and they get 70% of the ultimate's cost on all three attributes. Helping hands restores 5% Stamina, Draw Essence restores Magicka etc

Draw Essence sucks.. its dependent on multi target and that's the one thing that DK's have no issue with is multi target fights.. its single target sustained that's the issue.. and it's by far the worse of any magic class...

You are forced to use cheap ultimate's.. or run a ultimate regen build that lowers dps.. Making banner and detro staff ultimate near worthless in longer fights as you need to keep burning your smaller ultimate's just so you can some what sustain your self... there is nothing in the DK's to lower magic costs as well as having some of the most expensive spam attacks in the game...

Templar has great sustained compared to DK's.. as you can sit on your aura gaining mana every sec as well as just needing to do less heavy weave to get mana back because the spells cost less.. meaning less time trying to regen mana and more time attacking.. if anything its not mana retention that's the magic Templars issue its pre execute damage.. but then again.. Templars can start to execute and 50% vs 30/25% for most other class's...

Right now if any magic class needs help its Magblades lack luster damage and DK's single target magic sustain.

Destruent

old_mufasa wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

Actually Templar is probably the worst when it comes to sustain, stamina have Repentence, magicka have Channeled Focus but they are not great for sustaining not compared to other classes anyway.

I've play'ed Templar as my main since beta and can verify this, they can cope in higher levels but are they not great with sustain even at higher levels.

I disagree, magicka dk is worse for sustain. Templars can at least drop focus,best dk has is else drain.

It depends on the content. For group PvE magicka templars have the worst sustain. Magicka-DK is easy-mode compared to this. Don't forget about the ultimates...they are great for sustain in pve for DKs...

Agree. Dks activate a ultimate from Battle Roar and they get 70% of the ultimate's cost on all three attributes. Helping hands restores 5% Stamina, Draw Essence restores Magicka etc

Draw Essence sucks.. its dependent on multi target and that's the one thing that DK's have no issue with is multi target fights.. its single target sustained that's the issue.. and it's by far the worse of any magic class...

You are forced to use cheap ultimate's.. or run a ultimate regen build that lowers dps.. Making banner and detro staff ultimate near worthless in longer fights as you need to keep burning your smaller ultimate's just so you can some what sustain your self... there is nothing in the DK's to lower magic costs as well as having some of the most expensive spam attacks in the game...

Templar has great sustained compared to DK's.. as you can sit on your aura gaining mana every sec as well as just needing to do less heavy weave to get mana back because the spells cost less.. meaning less time trying to regen mana and more time attacking.. if anything its not mana retention that's the magic Templars issue its pre execute damage.. but then again.. Templars can start to execute and 50% vs 30/25% for most other class's...

Right now if any magic class needs help its Magblades lack luster damage and DK's single target magic sustain.

That's so much wrong information...dunno where to start.

I played my DK and my templar with 2pc Kena until OT. Sustain was easy on DK (thx to ele-drain and battle roar), but i still had problems sustaining on templer. You don't need to invest anything into regen as a DK (and as a templar aswell in endgame pve). You will also ALWAYS want to use your banner, bc it's the most DPS possible. If you struggle with ressources your group support is extremely bad or your build/CP is completely crap

DKs whip has a basecost of 2.7k, templars sweeps have 2952 magicka cost. On top of this, whip triggers ele-drain (~500 magicka) which lowers the cost far more than the 4% cost reduction from templars. Better inform yourself before spreading false information! (oh, concealed weapon has the same cost as whip, only funnel is cheaper, but NBs usually use force pule, which has a 2.7k basecost aswell...)

Templarsustain comes from lower cost (yay...4%) and concentrating focus (casing it is a dps-loss...) whereas DKs can make a great use of ele-drain which works a lot better than what a templar has.

Templars don't need any help in DPS, the damage is great and in some fights they provide the best possible DPS. You also will not start executing at 50%, you still have to wait till 30...35% and sometimes even untill 25% or lower, depending on the fight.

Noone (DPS-wise) (except sorc-heavy-attack builds or maybe lighting heavy for aoe) is using heavy attacks for sustain. If you need to, your healers need to l2p.

I agree with mageblades needing some help for ST-DPS.

old_mufasa

Destruent wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

Actually Templar is probably the worst when it comes to sustain, stamina have Repentence, magicka have Channeled Focus but they are not great for sustaining not compared to other classes anyway.

I've play'ed Templar as my main since beta and can verify this, they can cope in higher levels but are they not great with sustain even at higher levels.

I disagree, magicka dk is worse for sustain. Templars can at least drop focus,best dk has is else drain.

It depends on the content. For group PvE magicka templars have the worst sustain. Magicka-DK is easy-mode compared to this. Don't forget about the ultimates...they are great for sustain in pve for DKs...

Agree. Dks activate a ultimate from Battle Roar and they get 70% of the ultimate's cost on all three attributes. Helping hands restores 5% Stamina, Draw Essence restores Magicka etc

Draw Essence sucks.. its dependent on multi target and that's the one thing that DK's have no issue with is multi target fights.. its single target sustained that's the issue.. and it's by far the worse of any magic class...

You are forced to use cheap ultimate's.. or run a ultimate regen build that lowers dps.. Making banner and detro staff ultimate near worthless in longer fights as you need to keep burning your smaller ultimate's just so you can some what sustain your self... there is nothing in the DK's to lower magic costs as well as having some of the most expensive spam attacks in the game...

Templar has great sustained compared to DK's.. as you can sit on your aura gaining mana every sec as well as just needing to do less heavy weave to get mana back because the spells cost less.. meaning less time trying to regen mana and more time attacking.. if anything its not mana retention that's the magic Templars issue its pre execute damage.. but then again.. Templars can start to execute and 50% vs 30/25% for most other class's...

Right now if any magic class needs help its Magblades lack luster damage and DK's single target magic sustain.

That's so much wrong information...dunno where to start.

I played my DK and my templar with 2pc Kena until OT. Sustain was easy on DK (thx to ele-drain and battle roar), but i still had problems sustaining on templer. You don't need to invest anything into regen as a DK (and as a templar aswell in endgame pve). You will also ALWAYS want to use your banner, bc it's the most DPS possible. If you struggle with ressources your group support is extremely bad or your build/CP is completely crap

DKs whip has a basecost of 2.7k, templars sweeps have 2952 magicka cost. On top of this, whip triggers ele-drain (~500 magicka) which lowers the cost far more than the 4% cost reduction from templars. Better inform yourself before spreading false information! (oh, concealed weapon has the same cost as whip, only funnel is cheaper, but NBs usually use force pule, which has a 2.7k basecost aswell...)

Templarsustain comes from lower cost (yay...4%) and concentrating focus (casing it is a dps-loss...) whereas DKs can make a great use of ele-drain which works a lot better than what a templar has.

Templars don't need any help in DPS, the damage is great and in some fights they provide the best possible DPS. You also will not start executing at 50%, you still have to wait till 30...35% and sometimes even untill 25% or lower, depending on the fight.

Noone (DPS-wise) (except sorc-heavy-attack builds or maybe lighting heavy for aoe) is using heavy attacks for sustain. If you need to, your healers need to l2p.

I agree with mageblades needing some help for ST-DPS.

Wrong... so much wrong

For one Puncturing Sweeps is 2070 mana at max rank... its also a 1.1 sec channel vs Whip that is 2118 mana and a instant. You should be in your Rune of Focus that's giving you back 120 mana every .5 sec that in effects reduces the cost of Puncturing Sweeps by 240 over the duration of the channel.. and because you should be weaving a light attack in between sweeps it should be procing 3 times reducing the cost by 360 mana as 1 sweep + light takes about 1.5 sec meaning that the real cost of sweeps is 1710 mana.. Whip has no synergy in the DK tree.. elemental drain is NOT a dk skill.. but for arguments even if you add it.. in 1.5 sec you can get off 2 to 3 whips.. that's between 4236 to 6654 mana per same time rotation.. even if you were to get 500 back every attack.. which you wont but lets say you do.. that's only a gain of 1000 to 1500 mana over the use of 3236 to 5154 in the same 1.5 sec time period... so no you are totally wrong when it comes to mana cost and sustain between the two class's when it comes to skill cost vs mana retention and this also does not take into account that you will be gaining health while using sweeps as well.

Also I said you can start executing at 50% and vs adds you should be as you can burn them faster and will kill them in one beam vs using other attacks.

The fact you even try to argue magic Templar DPS is great is what's really funny here.. Templars are not even in a ball park compared to other class's in dps.. Sorcs and Magdks are far much better in dps compared to a Templar..

The fact is the devs agree with my view on Mage DK mana sustain issues.. not yours.. as they have come out saying that in patch 13 that they will be addressing the lack of sustain mana issues with DKs... the way you talk it seems you do not even have a max level DK..

Destruent

old_mufasa wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

Actually Templar is probably the worst when it comes to sustain, stamina have Repentence, magicka have Channeled Focus but they are not great for sustaining not compared to other classes anyway.

I've play'ed Templar as my main since beta and can verify this, they can cope in higher levels but are they not great with sustain even at higher levels.

I disagree, magicka dk is worse for sustain. Templars can at least drop focus,best dk has is else drain.

It depends on the content. For group PvE magicka templars have the worst sustain. Magicka-DK is easy-mode compared to this. Don't forget about the ultimates...they are great for sustain in pve for DKs...

Agree. Dks activate a ultimate from Battle Roar and they get 70% of the ultimate's cost on all three attributes. Helping hands restores 5% Stamina, Draw Essence restores Magicka etc

Draw Essence sucks.. its dependent on multi target and that's the one thing that DK's have no issue with is multi target fights.. its single target sustained that's the issue.. and it's by far the worse of any magic class...

You are forced to use cheap ultimate's.. or run a ultimate regen build that lowers dps.. Making banner and detro staff ultimate near worthless in longer fights as you need to keep burning your smaller ultimate's just so you can some what sustain your self... there is nothing in the DK's to lower magic costs as well as having some of the most expensive spam attacks in the game...

Templar has great sustained compared to DK's.. as you can sit on your aura gaining mana every sec as well as just needing to do less heavy weave to get mana back because the spells cost less.. meaning less time trying to regen mana and more time attacking.. if anything its not mana retention that's the magic Templars issue its pre execute damage.. but then again.. Templars can start to execute and 50% vs 30/25% for most other class's...

Right now if any magic class needs help its Magblades lack luster damage and DK's single target magic sustain.

That's so much wrong information...dunno where to start.

I played my DK and my templar with 2pc Kena until OT. Sustain was easy on DK (thx to ele-drain and battle roar), but i still had problems sustaining on templer. You don't need to invest anything into regen as a DK (and as a templar aswell in endgame pve). You will also ALWAYS want to use your banner, bc it's the most DPS possible. If you struggle with ressources your group support is extremely bad or your build/CP is completely crap

DKs whip has a basecost of 2.7k, templars sweeps have 2952 magicka cost. On top of this, whip triggers ele-drain (~500 magicka) which lowers the cost far more than the 4% cost reduction from templars. Better inform yourself before spreading false information! (oh, concealed weapon has the same cost as whip, only funnel is cheaper, but NBs usually use force pule, which has a 2.7k basecost aswell...)

Templarsustain comes from lower cost (yay...4%) and concentrating focus (casing it is a dps-loss...) whereas DKs can make a great use of ele-drain which works a lot better than what a templar has.

Templars don't need any help in DPS, the damage is great and in some fights they provide the best possible DPS. You also will not start executing at 50%, you still have to wait till 30...35% and sometimes even untill 25% or lower, depending on the fight.

Noone (DPS-wise) (except sorc-heavy-attack builds or maybe lighting heavy for aoe) is using heavy attacks for sustain. If you need to, your healers need to l2p.

I agree with mageblades needing some help for ST-DPS.

Wrong... so much wrong

For one Puncturing Sweeps is 2070 mana at max rank... its also a 1.1 sec channel vs Whip that is 2118 mana and a instant. You should be in your Rune of Focus that's giving you back 120 mana every .5 sec that in effects reduces the cost of Puncturing Sweeps by 240 over the duration of the channel.. and because you should be weaving a light attack in between sweeps it should be procing 3 times reducing the cost by 360 mana as 1 sweep + light takes about 1.5 sec meaning that the real cost of sweeps is 1710 mana.. Whip has no synergy in the DK tree.. elemental drain is NOT a dk skill.. but for arguments even if you add it.. in 1.5 sec you can get off 2 to 3 whips.. that's between 4236 to 6654 mana per same time rotation.. even if you were to get 500 back every attack.. which you wont but lets say you do.. that's only a gain of 1000 to 1500 mana over the use of 3236 to 5154 in the same 1.5 sec time period... so no you are totally wrong when it comes to mana cost and sustain between the two class's when it comes to skill cost vs mana retention and this also does not take into account that you will be gaining health while using sweeps as well.

Also I said you can start executing at 50% and vs adds you should be as you can burn them faster and will kill them in one beam vs using other attacks.

The fact you even try to argue magic Templar DPS is great is what's really funny here.. Templars are not even in a ball park compared to other class's in dps.. Sorcs and Magdks are far much better in dps compared to a Templar..

The fact is the devs agree with my view on Mage DK mana sustain issues.. not yours.. as they have come out saying that in patch 13 that they will be addressing the lack of sustain mana issues with DKs... the way you talk it seems you do not even have a max level DK..

When talking about whip you should also factor in light attacks (which also triggers ele-drain). And when talking about endgame PvE (which i stated in my first post) you will have ele-drain. Regarding templar-DPS, if you say they lack DPS you just have no clue what you are talking about. But maybe it is, bc you are starting to execute at 50%, which is far to early for top-DPS. Our templars don't have any problems to pull as much DPS as other classes, if not even more on some fights.
About Runefocus: sure, i can use it, but it's a dps-loss to cast, whereas DKs can get better sustain from ele-drain which they don't have to cast theirselves.
I only can speak about my endgame-trials-experience, where DKs have an easier time to sustain compared to templars. If you don't believe me, that's ok...but it doesn't make it true.

old_mufasa

Destruent wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

Actually Templar is probably the worst when it comes to sustain, stamina have Repentence, magicka have Channeled Focus but they are not great for sustaining not compared to other classes anyway.

I've play'ed Templar as my main since beta and can verify this, they can cope in higher levels but are they not great with sustain even at higher levels.

I disagree, magicka dk is worse for sustain. Templars can at least drop focus,best dk has is else drain.

It depends on the content. For group PvE magicka templars have the worst sustain. Magicka-DK is easy-mode compared to this. Don't forget about the ultimates...they are great for sustain in pve for DKs...

Agree. Dks activate a ultimate from Battle Roar and they get 70% of the ultimate's cost on all three attributes. Helping hands restores 5% Stamina, Draw Essence restores Magicka etc

Draw Essence sucks.. its dependent on multi target and that's the one thing that DK's have no issue with is multi target fights.. its single target sustained that's the issue.. and it's by far the worse of any magic class...

You are forced to use cheap ultimate's.. or run a ultimate regen build that lowers dps.. Making banner and detro staff ultimate near worthless in longer fights as you need to keep burning your smaller ultimate's just so you can some what sustain your self... there is nothing in the DK's to lower magic costs as well as having some of the most expensive spam attacks in the game...

Templar has great sustained compared to DK's.. as you can sit on your aura gaining mana every sec as well as just needing to do less heavy weave to get mana back because the spells cost less.. meaning less time trying to regen mana and more time attacking.. if anything its not mana retention that's the magic Templars issue its pre execute damage.. but then again.. Templars can start to execute and 50% vs 30/25% for most other class's...

Right now if any magic class needs help its Magblades lack luster damage and DK's single target magic sustain.

That's so much wrong information...dunno where to start.

I played my DK and my templar with 2pc Kena until OT. Sustain was easy on DK (thx to ele-drain and battle roar), but i still had problems sustaining on templer. You don't need to invest anything into regen as a DK (and as a templar aswell in endgame pve). You will also ALWAYS want to use your banner, bc it's the most DPS possible. If you struggle with ressources your group support is extremely bad or your build/CP is completely crap

DKs whip has a basecost of 2.7k, templars sweeps have 2952 magicka cost. On top of this, whip triggers ele-drain (~500 magicka) which lowers the cost far more than the 4% cost reduction from templars. Better inform yourself before spreading false information! (oh, concealed weapon has the same cost as whip, only funnel is cheaper, but NBs usually use force pule, which has a 2.7k basecost aswell...)

Templarsustain comes from lower cost (yay...4%) and concentrating focus (casing it is a dps-loss...) whereas DKs can make a great use of ele-drain which works a lot better than what a templar has.

Templars don't need any help in DPS, the damage is great and in some fights they provide the best possible DPS. You also will not start executing at 50%, you still have to wait till 30...35% and sometimes even untill 25% or lower, depending on the fight.

Noone (DPS-wise) (except sorc-heavy-attack builds or maybe lighting heavy for aoe) is using heavy attacks for sustain. If you need to, your healers need to l2p.

I agree with mageblades needing some help for ST-DPS.

Wrong... so much wrong

For one Puncturing Sweeps is 2070 mana at max rank... its also a 1.1 sec channel vs Whip that is 2118 mana and a instant. You should be in your Rune of Focus that's giving you back 120 mana every .5 sec that in effects reduces the cost of Puncturing Sweeps by 240 over the duration of the channel.. and because you should be weaving a light attack in between sweeps it should be procing 3 times reducing the cost by 360 mana as 1 sweep + light takes about 1.5 sec meaning that the real cost of sweeps is 1710 mana.. Whip has no synergy in the DK tree.. elemental drain is NOT a dk skill.. but for arguments even if you add it.. in 1.5 sec you can get off 2 to 3 whips.. that's between 4236 to 6654 mana per same time rotation.. even if you were to get 500 back every attack.. which you wont but lets say you do.. that's only a gain of 1000 to 1500 mana over the use of 3236 to 5154 in the same 1.5 sec time period... so no you are totally wrong when it comes to mana cost and sustain between the two class's when it comes to skill cost vs mana retention and this also does not take into account that you will be gaining health while using sweeps as well.

Also I said you can start executing at 50% and vs adds you should be as you can burn them faster and will kill them in one beam vs using other attacks.

The fact you even try to argue magic Templar DPS is great is what's really funny here.. Templars are not even in a ball park compared to other class's in dps.. Sorcs and Magdks are far much better in dps compared to a Templar..

The fact is the devs agree with my view on Mage DK mana sustain issues.. not yours.. as they have come out saying that in patch 13 that they will be addressing the lack of sustain mana issues with DKs... the way you talk it seems you do not even have a max level DK..

When talking about whip you should also factor in light attacks (which also triggers ele-drain). And when talking about endgame PvE (which i stated in my first post) you will have ele-drain. Regarding templar-DPS, if you say they lack DPS you just have no clue what you are talking about. But maybe it is, bc you are starting to execute at 50%, which is far to early for top-DPS. Our templars don't have any problems to pull as much DPS as other classes, if not even more on some fights.
About Runefocus: sure, i can use it, but it's a dps-loss to cast, whereas DKs can get better sustain from ele-drain which they don't have to cast theirselves.
I only can speak about my endgame-trials-experience, where DKs have an easier time to sustain compared to templars. If you don't believe me, that's ok...but it doesn't make it true.

OMG... even if you weaved 2 light attacks in 3 whips you still will be using more mana then Temp sweeps + light weave...

Its called math man... its not in your favor.. and again even the DEVs agree with me that mana sustain on mage DK's are low.. so go ahead argue with me, the devs.. all based on your limited experience... vs the math and the developer of the game...

Destruent

old_mufasa wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

Actually Templar is probably the worst when it comes to sustain, stamina have Repentence, magicka have Channeled Focus but they are not great for sustaining not compared to other classes anyway.

I've play'ed Templar as my main since beta and can verify this, they can cope in higher levels but are they not great with sustain even at higher levels.

I disagree, magicka dk is worse for sustain. Templars can at least drop focus,best dk has is else drain.

It depends on the content. For group PvE magicka templars have the worst sustain. Magicka-DK is easy-mode compared to this. Don't forget about the ultimates...they are great for sustain in pve for DKs...

Agree. Dks activate a ultimate from Battle Roar and they get 70% of the ultimate's cost on all three attributes. Helping hands restores 5% Stamina, Draw Essence restores Magicka etc

Draw Essence sucks.. its dependent on multi target and that's the one thing that DK's have no issue with is multi target fights.. its single target sustained that's the issue.. and it's by far the worse of any magic class...

You are forced to use cheap ultimate's.. or run a ultimate regen build that lowers dps.. Making banner and detro staff ultimate near worthless in longer fights as you need to keep burning your smaller ultimate's just so you can some what sustain your self... there is nothing in the DK's to lower magic costs as well as having some of the most expensive spam attacks in the game...

Templar has great sustained compared to DK's.. as you can sit on your aura gaining mana every sec as well as just needing to do less heavy weave to get mana back because the spells cost less.. meaning less time trying to regen mana and more time attacking.. if anything its not mana retention that's the magic Templars issue its pre execute damage.. but then again.. Templars can start to execute and 50% vs 30/25% for most other class's...

Right now if any magic class needs help its Magblades lack luster damage and DK's single target magic sustain.

That's so much wrong information...dunno where to start.

I played my DK and my templar with 2pc Kena until OT. Sustain was easy on DK (thx to ele-drain and battle roar), but i still had problems sustaining on templer. You don't need to invest anything into regen as a DK (and as a templar aswell in endgame pve). You will also ALWAYS want to use your banner, bc it's the most DPS possible. If you struggle with ressources your group support is extremely bad or your build/CP is completely crap

DKs whip has a basecost of 2.7k, templars sweeps have 2952 magicka cost. On top of this, whip triggers ele-drain (~500 magicka) which lowers the cost far more than the 4% cost reduction from templars. Better inform yourself before spreading false information! (oh, concealed weapon has the same cost as whip, only funnel is cheaper, but NBs usually use force pule, which has a 2.7k basecost aswell...)

Templarsustain comes from lower cost (yay...4%) and concentrating focus (casing it is a dps-loss...) whereas DKs can make a great use of ele-drain which works a lot better than what a templar has.

Templars don't need any help in DPS, the damage is great and in some fights they provide the best possible DPS. You also will not start executing at 50%, you still have to wait till 30...35% and sometimes even untill 25% or lower, depending on the fight.

Noone (DPS-wise) (except sorc-heavy-attack builds or maybe lighting heavy for aoe) is using heavy attacks for sustain. If you need to, your healers need to l2p.

I agree with mageblades needing some help for ST-DPS.

Wrong... so much wrong

For one Puncturing Sweeps is 2070 mana at max rank... its also a 1.1 sec channel vs Whip that is 2118 mana and a instant. You should be in your Rune of Focus that's giving you back 120 mana every .5 sec that in effects reduces the cost of Puncturing Sweeps by 240 over the duration of the channel.. and because you should be weaving a light attack in between sweeps it should be procing 3 times reducing the cost by 360 mana as 1 sweep + light takes about 1.5 sec meaning that the real cost of sweeps is 1710 mana.. Whip has no synergy in the DK tree.. elemental drain is NOT a dk skill.. but for arguments even if you add it.. in 1.5 sec you can get off 2 to 3 whips.. that's between 4236 to 6654 mana per same time rotation.. even if you were to get 500 back every attack.. which you wont but lets say you do.. that's only a gain of 1000 to 1500 mana over the use of 3236 to 5154 in the same 1.5 sec time period... so no you are totally wrong when it comes to mana cost and sustain between the two class's when it comes to skill cost vs mana retention and this also does not take into account that you will be gaining health while using sweeps as well.

Also I said you can start executing at 50% and vs adds you should be as you can burn them faster and will kill them in one beam vs using other attacks.

The fact you even try to argue magic Templar DPS is great is what's really funny here.. Templars are not even in a ball park compared to other class's in dps.. Sorcs and Magdks are far much better in dps compared to a Templar..

The fact is the devs agree with my view on Mage DK mana sustain issues.. not yours.. as they have come out saying that in patch 13 that they will be addressing the lack of sustain mana issues with DKs... the way you talk it seems you do not even have a max level DK..

When talking about whip you should also factor in light attacks (which also triggers ele-drain). And when talking about endgame PvE (which i stated in my first post) you will have ele-drain. Regarding templar-DPS, if you say they lack DPS you just have no clue what you are talking about. But maybe it is, bc you are starting to execute at 50%, which is far to early for top-DPS. Our templars don't have any problems to pull as much DPS as other classes, if not even more on some fights.
About Runefocus: sure, i can use it, but it's a dps-loss to cast, whereas DKs can get better sustain from ele-drain which they don't have to cast theirselves.
I only can speak about my endgame-trials-experience, where DKs have an easier time to sustain compared to templars. If you don't believe me, that's ok...but it doesn't make it true.

OMG... even if you weaved 2 light attacks in 3 whips you still will be using more mana then Temp sweeps + light weave...

Its called math man... its not in your favor.. and again even the DEVs agree with me that mana sustain on mage DK's are low.. so go ahead argue with me, the devs.. all based on your limited experience... vs the math and the developer of the game...

k...so raiding on magplar/magDK for more than one year doesn't count....i see.

If you factor in all sustaintools etc you will also have to factor in magicka-return through ultimates. But anyway...your main argument seems to be "the devs see it my way", but the devs are not always perfect in their opinion (see the stambuffs for khajiit)

nordsavage

The game went through an overhaul and costs and other factors changed. You need to take your own sustain into your own hands and not just jam capacity anymore. As for being low level OP work staff attacks into your rotation and use food.

Destruent

nordsavage wrote: »

The game went through an overhaul and costs and other factors changed. You need to take your own sustain into your own hands and not just jam capacity anymore. As for being low level OP work staff attacks into your rotation and use food.

No...you have to work as group for your sustain...if they support you well, you can go full damage on all classes.

old_mufasa

Destruent wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

James-Wayne wrote: »

Actually Templar is probably the worst when it comes to sustain, stamina have Repentence, magicka have Channeled Focus but they are not great for sustaining not compared to other classes anyway.

I've play'ed Templar as my main since beta and can verify this, they can cope in higher levels but are they not great with sustain even at higher levels.

I disagree, magicka dk is worse for sustain. Templars can at least drop focus,best dk has is else drain.

It depends on the content. For group PvE magicka templars have the worst sustain. Magicka-DK is easy-mode compared to this. Don't forget about the ultimates...they are great for sustain in pve for DKs...

Agree. Dks activate a ultimate from Battle Roar and they get 70% of the ultimate's cost on all three attributes. Helping hands restores 5% Stamina, Draw Essence restores Magicka etc

Draw Essence sucks.. its dependent on multi target and that's the one thing that DK's have no issue with is multi target fights.. its single target sustained that's the issue.. and it's by far the worse of any magic class...

You are forced to use cheap ultimate's.. or run a ultimate regen build that lowers dps.. Making banner and detro staff ultimate near worthless in longer fights as you need to keep burning your smaller ultimate's just so you can some what sustain your self... there is nothing in the DK's to lower magic costs as well as having some of the most expensive spam attacks in the game...

Templar has great sustained compared to DK's.. as you can sit on your aura gaining mana every sec as well as just needing to do less heavy weave to get mana back because the spells cost less.. meaning less time trying to regen mana and more time attacking.. if anything its not mana retention that's the magic Templars issue its pre execute damage.. but then again.. Templars can start to execute and 50% vs 30/25% for most other class's...

Right now if any magic class needs help its Magblades lack luster damage and DK's single target magic sustain.

That's so much wrong information...dunno where to start.

I played my DK and my templar with 2pc Kena until OT. Sustain was easy on DK (thx to ele-drain and battle roar), but i still had problems sustaining on templer. You don't need to invest anything into regen as a DK (and as a templar aswell in endgame pve). You will also ALWAYS want to use your banner, bc it's the most DPS possible. If you struggle with ressources your group support is extremely bad or your build/CP is completely crap

DKs whip has a basecost of 2.7k, templars sweeps have 2952 magicka cost. On top of this, whip triggers ele-drain (~500 magicka) which lowers the cost far more than the 4% cost reduction from templars. Better inform yourself before spreading false information! (oh, concealed weapon has the same cost as whip, only funnel is cheaper, but NBs usually use force pule, which has a 2.7k basecost aswell...)

Templarsustain comes from lower cost (yay...4%) and concentrating focus (casing it is a dps-loss...) whereas DKs can make a great use of ele-drain which works a lot better than what a templar has.

Templars don't need any help in DPS, the damage is great and in some fights they provide the best possible DPS. You also will not start executing at 50%, you still have to wait till 30...35% and sometimes even untill 25% or lower, depending on the fight.

Noone (DPS-wise) (except sorc-heavy-attack builds or maybe lighting heavy for aoe) is using heavy attacks for sustain. If you need to, your healers need to l2p.

I agree with mageblades needing some help for ST-DPS.

Wrong... so much wrong

For one Puncturing Sweeps is 2070 mana at max rank... its also a 1.1 sec channel vs Whip that is 2118 mana and a instant. You should be in your Rune of Focus that's giving you back 120 mana every .5 sec that in effects reduces the cost of Puncturing Sweeps by 240 over the duration of the channel.. and because you should be weaving a light attack in between sweeps it should be procing 3 times reducing the cost by 360 mana as 1 sweep + light takes about 1.5 sec meaning that the real cost of sweeps is 1710 mana.. Whip has no synergy in the DK tree.. elemental drain is NOT a dk skill.. but for arguments even if you add it.. in 1.5 sec you can get off 2 to 3 whips.. that's between 4236 to 6654 mana per same time rotation.. even if you were to get 500 back every attack.. which you wont but lets say you do.. that's only a gain of 1000 to 1500 mana over the use of 3236 to 5154 in the same 1.5 sec time period... so no you are totally wrong when it comes to mana cost and sustain between the two class's when it comes to skill cost vs mana retention and this also does not take into account that you will be gaining health while using sweeps as well.

Also I said you can start executing at 50% and vs adds you should be as you can burn them faster and will kill them in one beam vs using other attacks.

The fact you even try to argue magic Templar DPS is great is what's really funny here.. Templars are not even in a ball park compared to other class's in dps.. Sorcs and Magdks are far much better in dps compared to a Templar..

The fact is the devs agree with my view on Mage DK mana sustain issues.. not yours.. as they have come out saying that in patch 13 that they will be addressing the lack of sustain mana issues with DKs... the way you talk it seems you do not even have a max level DK..

When talking about whip you should also factor in light attacks (which also triggers ele-drain). And when talking about endgame PvE (which i stated in my first post) you will have ele-drain. Regarding templar-DPS, if you say they lack DPS you just have no clue what you are talking about. But maybe it is, bc you are starting to execute at 50%, which is far to early for top-DPS. Our templars don't have any problems to pull as much DPS as other classes, if not even more on some fights.
About Runefocus: sure, i can use it, but it's a dps-loss to cast, whereas DKs can get better sustain from ele-drain which they don't have to cast theirselves.
I only can speak about my endgame-trials-experience, where DKs have an easier time to sustain compared to templars. If you don't believe me, that's ok...but it doesn't make it true.

OMG... even if you weaved 2 light attacks in 3 whips you still will be using more mana then Temp sweeps + light weave...

Its called math man... its not in your favor.. and again even the DEVs agree with me that mana sustain on mage DK's are low.. so go ahead argue with me, the devs.. all based on your limited experience... vs the math and the developer of the game...

k...so raiding on magplar/magDK for more than one year doesn't count....i see.

If you factor in all sustaintools etc you will also have to factor in magicka-return through ultimates. But anyway...your main argument seems to be "the devs see it my way", but the devs are not always perfect in their opinion (see the stambuffs for khajiit)

It's called math.. some schools teach it I hear...

Your math is wrong.. your feelings mean nothing when it comes to how the mathematics work... Just because you feel 1+1=3 does not mean it does...

So ya your feelings on how running trials for the last year makes you feel.. they indeed do not count for squat...

Also group content has other buffs that are effecting you.. such as Arcane Well procs that have nothing to do with your own mana regen...

Given your arguing with everyone.. shows a total lack of understanding of the issue..

Destruent

old_mufasa wrote: »

It's called math.. some schools teach it I hear...

Your math is wrong.. your feelings mean nothing when it comes to how the mathematics work... Just because you feel 1+1=3 does not mean it does...

So ya your feelings on how running trials for the last year makes you feel.. they indeed do not count for squat...

Also group content has other buffs that are effecting you.. such as Arcane Well procs that have nothing to do with your own mana regen...

Given your arguing with everyone.. shows a total lack of understanding of the issue..

strictly talking about group PvE here (what i already stated at the beginning of my posts)...

Skillcost= (base *(1-CP-costred.)-flatcostreduction)+(1-costred.)

Whip: 2700*0.84*0.85 =1928 (16% magician, 15% light armor passiv)
sweeps: 2952*0.84*0.81=2008 (same as DK + 4% templarpassiv)

DK will be doing ~3whip + LA every 3 sec ( you cannot do 3 whips in 1.5 sec bc of global cooldowns of ~0.9 sec)
templars maybe doing 2 sweeps + LA in 3 sec
with 42k magicka you get 540 magicka through ele-drain

3x whip-6x ele-drain=2544 mana/3 sec for DK
2x sweeps - 2x ele-drain = 2936 mana /3 sec for templar (IF the templar is using staffmainbar, if not it's 4016, 760 return from focus in 3 sec)

As you see, if the templar is using Staffmainbar DKs are a little bit better with sustain as long as templars are not using focus (casting it is a dps-loss...but anyway). When templars use DW-mainbar (what most templars are doing) even with focus their sustain is worse compared to a DK getting ele-drain from a healer (which you should get 24/7 in groups). But we don't even factored in the ressource-return from ultimates which makes DK-sustain even better.

btw. arcane well does nothing in a bossfight...

old_mufasa

Destruent wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

It's called math.. some schools teach it I hear...

Your math is wrong.. your feelings mean nothing when it comes to how the mathematics work... Just because you feel 1+1=3 does not mean it does...

So ya your feelings on how running trials for the last year makes you feel.. they indeed do not count for squat...

Also group content has other buffs that are effecting you.. such as Arcane Well procs that have nothing to do with your own mana regen...

Given your arguing with everyone.. shows a total lack of understanding of the issue..

strictly talking about group PvE here (what i already stated at the beginning of my posts)...

Skillcost= (base *(1-CP-costred.)-flatcostreduction)+(1-costred.)

Whip: 2700*0.84*0.85 =1928 (16% magician, 15% light armor passiv)
sweeps: 2952*0.84*0.81=2008 (same as DK + 4% templarpassiv)

DK will be doing ~3whip + LA every 3 sec ( you cannot do 3 whips in 1.5 sec bc of global cooldowns of ~0.9 sec)
templars maybe doing 2 sweeps + LA in 3 sec
with 42k magicka you get 540 magicka through ele-drain

3x whip-6x ele-drain=2544 mana/3 sec for DK
2x sweeps - 2x ele-drain = 2936 mana /3 sec for templar (IF the templar is using staffmainbar, if not it's 4016, 760 return from focus in 3 sec)

As you see, if the templar is using Staffmainbar DKs are a little bit better with sustain as long as templars are not using focus (casting it is a dps-loss...but anyway). When templars use DW-mainbar (what most templars are doing) even with focus their sustain is worse compared to a DK getting ele-drain from a healer (which you should get 24/7 in groups). But we don't even factored in the ressource-return from ultimates which makes DK-sustain even better.

btw. arcane well does nothing in a bossfight...

Dude your math is all screwed up.. a mag temp also uses light armor... you seem to forget that.. and nit picked passive and such to lower skills.. on and your costs on whip and sweeps are both wrong.. ele drain is not a DK or TEMP SKILL dur.. please.. go back to hello kitty online as you don't know wtf your talking about in eso...

BTW I already posted base numbers for cost of tier 4 sweeps and whip with light armor.. you also ignored the mana regen off the Templar skill and no DK with there salt runs elemental drain... showing your lack of knowledge of the class's..

PS: you must not do trials as most boss fights have adds..

Destruent

old_mufasa wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

It's called math.. some schools teach it I hear...

Your math is wrong.. your feelings mean nothing when it comes to how the mathematics work... Just because you feel 1+1=3 does not mean it does...

So ya your feelings on how running trials for the last year makes you feel.. they indeed do not count for squat...

Also group content has other buffs that are effecting you.. such as Arcane Well procs that have nothing to do with your own mana regen...

Given your arguing with everyone.. shows a total lack of understanding of the issue..

strictly talking about group PvE here (what i already stated at the beginning of my posts)...

Skillcost= (base *(1-CP-costred.)-flatcostreduction)+(1-costred.)

Whip: 2700*0.84*0.85 =1928 (16% magician, 15% light armor passiv)
sweeps: 2952*0.84*0.81=2008 (same as DK + 4% templarpassiv)

DK will be doing ~3whip + LA every 3 sec ( you cannot do 3 whips in 1.5 sec bc of global cooldowns of ~0.9 sec)
templars maybe doing 2 sweeps + LA in 3 sec
with 42k magicka you get 540 magicka through ele-drain

3x whip-6x ele-drain=2544 mana/3 sec for DK
2x sweeps - 2x ele-drain = 2936 mana /3 sec for templar (IF the templar is using staffmainbar, if not it's 4016, 760 return from focus in 3 sec)

As you see, if the templar is using Staffmainbar DKs are a little bit better with sustain as long as templars are not using focus (casting it is a dps-loss...but anyway). When templars use DW-mainbar (what most templars are doing) even with focus their sustain is worse compared to a DK getting ele-drain from a healer (which you should get 24/7 in groups). But we don't even factored in the ressource-return from ultimates which makes DK-sustain even better.

btw. arcane well does nothing in a bossfight...

Dude your math is all screwed up.. a mag temp also uses light armor... you seem to forget that.. and nit picked passive and such to lower skills.. on and your costs on whip and sweeps are both wrong.. ele drain is not a DK or TEMP SKILL dur.. please.. go back to hello kitty online as you don't know wtf your talking about in eso...

BTW I already posted base numbers for cost of tier 4 sweeps and whip with light armor.. you also ignored the mana regen off the Templar skill and no DK with there salt runs elemental drain... showing your lack of knowledge of the class's..

PS: you must not do trials as most boss fights have adds..

Please read again. I wrote:

regarding ele-drain: "I'm talking about group pve" --> ele-drain will be provided by the healer

regarding costreduction: "Same as DK + 4% templarpassiv" and at the DK cost "16% magician, 15% light armor", if you watch the values, you'll see that both are included

regarding focus: "with staffmainbar + focus the templarsustain is better, with DW-mainbar it is worse" This is without counting the mana-return through ultimates from DK.

regarding me doing trials...watch esoleaderboards.com and you'll find me on some of those rankings. Even if we factor in arcane well...this effects templars and DK at the same...what does it change?
You should really read what others write before you answer.

old_mufasa

Destruent wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

It's called math.. some schools teach it I hear...

Your math is wrong.. your feelings mean nothing when it comes to how the mathematics work... Just because you feel 1+1=3 does not mean it does...

So ya your feelings on how running trials for the last year makes you feel.. they indeed do not count for squat...

Also group content has other buffs that are effecting you.. such as Arcane Well procs that have nothing to do with your own mana regen...

Given your arguing with everyone.. shows a total lack of understanding of the issue..

strictly talking about group PvE here (what i already stated at the beginning of my posts)...

Skillcost= (base *(1-CP-costred.)-flatcostreduction)+(1-costred.)

Whip: 2700*0.84*0.85 =1928 (16% magician, 15% light armor passiv)
sweeps: 2952*0.84*0.81=2008 (same as DK + 4% templarpassiv)

DK will be doing ~3whip + LA every 3 sec ( you cannot do 3 whips in 1.5 sec bc of global cooldowns of ~0.9 sec)
templars maybe doing 2 sweeps + LA in 3 sec
with 42k magicka you get 540 magicka through ele-drain

3x whip-6x ele-drain=2544 mana/3 sec for DK
2x sweeps - 2x ele-drain = 2936 mana /3 sec for templar (IF the templar is using staffmainbar, if not it's 4016, 760 return from focus in 3 sec)

As you see, if the templar is using Staffmainbar DKs are a little bit better with sustain as long as templars are not using focus (casting it is a dps-loss...but anyway). When templars use DW-mainbar (what most templars are doing) even with focus their sustain is worse compared to a DK getting ele-drain from a healer (which you should get 24/7 in groups). But we don't even factored in the ressource-return from ultimates which makes DK-sustain even better.

btw. arcane well does nothing in a bossfight...

Dude your math is all screwed up.. a mag temp also uses light armor... you seem to forget that.. and nit picked passive and such to lower skills.. on and your costs on whip and sweeps are both wrong.. ele drain is not a DK or TEMP SKILL dur.. please.. go back to hello kitty online as you don't know wtf your talking about in eso...

BTW I already posted base numbers for cost of tier 4 sweeps and whip with light armor.. you also ignored the mana regen off the Templar skill and no DK with there salt runs elemental drain... showing your lack of knowledge of the class's..

PS: you must not do trials as most boss fights have adds..

Please read again. I wrote:

regarding ele-drain: "I'm talking about group pve" --> ele-drain will be provided by the healer

regarding costreduction: "Same as DK + 4% templarpassiv" and at the DK cost "16% magician, 15% light armor", if you watch the values, you'll see that both are included

regarding focus: "with staffmainbar + focus the templarsustain is better, with DW-mainbar it is worse" This is without counting the mana-return through ultimates from DK.

regarding me doing trials...watch esoleaderboards.com and you'll find me on some of those rankings. Even if we factor in arcane well...this effects templars and DK at the same...what does it change?
You should really read what others write before you answer.

LOL... oh so now you admit arcane well is a factor.... /facepalm

You already showed the wrong math, wrong mechanic knowledge, wrong build knowledge ( you said that the DK player uses elemental drain), think the Templar can match the DK in damage and lack of understanding of class skills.... disregarded the real math and what the devs have already said on the issue... but you keep digging that pit...

You see the fact is compared to Stamina all magic class's have a issue with regen, cost or damage output.. but mana is not the Templar issue.. its pre execute damage.. while mana regen is the DK mage issue not damage.. where the mage blade issue is massively underperforming damage out put. These are the issue magic users are dealing with and that will be addressed come patch 13.

Destruent

old_mufasa wrote: »

LOL... oh so now you admit arcane well is a factor.... /facepalm

You already showed the wrong math, wrong mechanic knowledge, wrong build knowledge ( you said that the DK player uses elemental drain), think the Templar can match the DK in damage and lack of understanding of class skills.... disregarded the real math and what the devs have already said on the issue... but you keep digging that pit...

You see the fact is compared to Stamina all magic class's have a issue with regen, cost or damage output.. but mana is not the Templar issue.. its pre execute damage.. while mana regen is the DK mage issue not damage.. where the mage blade issue is massively underperforming damage out put. These are the issue magic users are dealing with and that will be addressed come patch 13.

Cmom...please learn2read...i said the healer will use elemental drain in group-PvE.
regarding DPS: i see it all day in raids, that templars do more or less the same DPS compared to DKs. Both of them also don't pull significantly less DPS than stamina nowadays (if not even more than some stamclasses).
And remember...i'm strictly talking about group PvE (mainly raids here).

regarding my math:

whip-cost without costreduction on jewelry/gear, 5 light and full CP:

sweeps cost with the same gear + templar-passive:

magicka-return from ele-drain:

note, this is without warhorn, so it's a little bit higher in raids