2h lackluster in PvE

daedalusAI

Why is 2h so lackluster compared to bow or dual wield in PvE?

I really want to like 2h because I really dislike bow and need a 2nd bar to accompany dual wield but the facts aren't in favor of 2h:

Cleave:

• mediocre aoe damage and bleed
• dual wield offers a way stronger single target bleed which gets even stronger vs. enemies below 25% hp
• dual wield offers the best stamina aoe with whirlwind and once again getting stronger vs. enemies below 25% hp
• bow offers a similar damage amplification vs low hp enemies with poison injection
• bow offers a strong aoe with volley and another one with arrow spray

Critical Charge:

• a gap closer which you use once in a fight

Uppercut:

• good damage with an awkward as hell 1sec cast time

Reverse Slash:

• single target finisher which is quite handy - though pales in comparison to whirlwind even with its lower damage multiplier

Momentum:

• decent self heal and providing you with major brutatliy

Passives:

• the passives are really lackluster when compared to its sister melee spec being dual wield
• splash for 25% hitting 2 enemies during light/heavy attacks <-> 20% more damage vs. enemies below 25% hp
• a small bonus according to weapon-type used <-> lower bonuses when dual wielding but getting crit when using daggers
• reduced stamina cost <-> same reduced stamina cost
• damage bonus after a fully charged heavy attack <-> weapon damage increased by 6% of off-hands weapon damage
• stamina regen after kill <-> damage bonus vs. cc'd enemies

Ultimate: Berserker Strike

• rather lackluster damage which ignores resistances and grants you the equal amount <-> Lacerate from dual wield offering a massive aoe bleed which heals you for 50% of the damage dealt

Did I miss something?
So far really lackluster and I'm only leveling 2h until I've unlocked momentum and thus still need a useful 2nd bar.

kessik221

I would say 2h is fairly balanced and feels right where its supposed to be PvE wise. With molten weapons I rarely see a heavy attack under 20k and a wrecking blow after hits even harder. With a maelstrom weapon crit rush does some decent damage and execute is where it shines. Rally is one of the best moves in the game imo nice hot with major brutality attached. As a dk i get my aoe from my class ability breath of fire which also give major fracture to all enemies.

The issues i have are with the ultimates they arent designed for pve dps. Also you lose an item set unless you are using maelstrom.

acw37162

Brawler a susbustantial shield when hitting a mob

Crit Rush, one of only two skills in the game to gutantee a crit.

Reverse Slice, exceptional AoE splash damage on kill.
Executioner, execution damage buff

Momentum non rally morph; the best and longest snare removal in the game and a nice heal over time on top of that

Rally one of two stamina based heals in the game the other you have to PVP to get all that and a large burst heal if timed right

Wrecking Blow dizzying swing one empowers the nwctcattack the other is one of the most pain in the CC's in the game.

Passover 30 % stamina regen after a kill are you kidding, stacks on top of major and minor endurance

2h is ridiculous and has needed some large adjusting of the nerf variety for a long time namely momentum and it's morphs being moved to someplace any stam user has access without being tied to a 2h weapon.

Asardes

2H is only good in single target damage, for example a boss who has no adds and/or you need self heals from rally. But for everything else, a DD should in deed use 2W with bow on back bar for AoE and utility skills slotted there.

daedalusAI

acw37162 wrote: »

Brawler a susbustantial shield when hitting a mob

Crit Rush, one of only two skills in the game to gutantee a crit.

Reverse Slice, exceptional AoE splash damage on kill.
Executioner, execution damage buff

Momentum non rally morph; the best and longest snare removal in the game and a nice heal over time on top of that

Rally one of two stamina based heals in the game the other you have to PVP to get all that and a large burst heal if timed right

Wrecking Blow dizzying swing one empowers the nwctcattack the other is one of the most pain in the CC's in the game.

Passover 30 % stamina regen after a kill are you kidding, stacks on top of major and minor endurance

2h is ridiculous and has needed some large adjusting of the nerf variety for a long time namely momentum and it's morphs being moved to someplace any stam user has access without being tied to a 2h weapon.

It seems you missed that I only looked at 2h from a PvE perspective.

Brawler does offer shield while doing damage similar to whirlwind with a weak dot and the damage does not scale at all - the only thing that scales is the shield provided by hitting more enemies.

Charge: you critical charge only a limited amount during a fight so that guaranteed crit is rather weak.

Reverse Slice: you first need to bring an enemy low and execute him for the splash to even be applied - and even then it's only 63% splash damage. <-> dual wield can execute all day <= 25% hp and whirlwind being aoe on top of that.

Executioner is indeed a strong execute ability - but still only single target and I would dual wield whirlwind dance every day of the week even with a lower multiplier because it's an aoe execute.

Momentum is good as I mentioned.

Spamming wrecking blow on a single target is far from what I call a satisfying rotation and with a 1sec cast on top of that.

Sure 30% stamina regen is pretty good on paper - but how would you properly use it since it's tied to using 2h and 2h itself offering negligible aoe abilities?
Spamming uppercut for 1sec cast time each while going from one enemy to the next while keeping brawler shield and dot up on multiple enemies?

Sounds rather pathetic compared to dual wield.

Erock25

It be how it do because of what it is.

UrBaN_RaNgErZz

Yes 2h is terrible in PvE, speaking from experience I ran a 2h on my first vet trial run with my PvE guild, they soon corrected me with a few laughs and told me next time respec to DW.
Ever since changing over to DW and understanding the rotation on my Stam Dk safe to say my dps has pretty much doubled.
Any Dpsers out there who are still running 2h I would recommend switching and working on your rotation the difference is unbelievable.

CultOfMMO

UrBaN_RaNgErZz wrote: »

Yes 2h is terrible in PvE, speaking from experience I ran a 2h on my first vet trial run with my PvE guild, they soon corrected me with a few laughs and told me next time respec to DW.
Ever since changing over to DW and understanding the rotation on my Stam Dk safe to say my dps has pretty much doubled.
Any Dpsers out there who are still running 2h I would recommend switching and working on your rotation the difference is unbelievable.

this. know that your guild mates are saints, i'd kick and ignore you right away if you bring 2h to a vet trial

double in single target

triple in aoe, bare minimum, and some of the hardest PVE content involves adds

2h in PVE is only viable up to normal trials and the trade off is damage for survivability. Thing is survivability is something that improves with experience and skill, whereas damage comes from simple math and number crunching, and the math just works out in favor of DW, big time.

Integral1900

If two handed and dual wield were even the pve dps builds would use it ... they don't...

I use two handed because it is such a gorgeous cinimatic weapon but I've learnt to avoid group stuff with those alts as I'm sick of the relentless criticisms of 2handed. I hate dual wield with a passion but until the damage output is on par it's always going to be relagated to the buff bar

Oreyn_Bearclaw

The silver lining of 2h being lousy in PVE is that no one is forced to run a wrecking blow build.

Yes, OP. In PVE, it is garbage. It can certainly be useful as a buff bar for farting around, but no competitive DPS build uses it that I am aware of.

bellanca6561n

But it looks cool....

Xvorg

Asardes wrote: »

2H is only good in single target damage, for example a boss who has no adds and/or you need self heals from rally. But for everything else, a DD should in deed use 2W with bow on back bar for AoE and utility skills slotted there.

Carve gives you ulti like raindrops on a tropical storm and Brawler gives you quiet a good shield... and it's the earlier AoE you get.

old_mufasa

daedalusAI wrote: »

Why is 2h so lackluster compared to bow or dual wield in PvE?

I really want to like 2h because I really dislike bow and need a 2nd bar to accompany dual wield but the facts aren't in favor of 2h:

Cleave:

• mediocre aoe damage and bleed
• dual wield offers a way stronger single target bleed which gets even stronger vs. enemies below 25% hp
• dual wield offers the best stamina aoe with whirlwind and once again getting stronger vs. enemies below 25% hp
• bow offers a similar damage amplification vs low hp enemies with poison injection
• bow offers a strong aoe with volley and another one with arrow spray

Critical Charge:

• a gap closer which you use once in a fight

Cleave gives you a aoe shield that practically makes you in invincible in large aoe fights....

Critical Charge... If you're only using this 1 times a fight... then you're doing it wrong.. every time you avoid AOE in a boss fight you use it to get back at the boss faster... and every time you are getting a crit.... As well as it works well with other knock back effects from wrecking blow or bow knock back...

DPS numbers are not the be all and end all of game play.. the cleave shield is very effective and allows to the healer to focus on other players because your pretty much immune to damage in large packs.. critical charge can be used a lot with many boss mechanics that force melee to roll away from them.

Xvorg

old_mufasa wrote: »

daedalusAI wrote: »

Why is 2h so lackluster compared to bow or dual wield in PvE?

I really want to like 2h because I really dislike bow and need a 2nd bar to accompany dual wield but the facts aren't in favor of 2h:

Cleave:

• mediocre aoe damage and bleed
• dual wield offers a way stronger single target bleed which gets even stronger vs. enemies below 25% hp
• dual wield offers the best stamina aoe with whirlwind and once again getting stronger vs. enemies below 25% hp
• bow offers a similar damage amplification vs low hp enemies with poison injection
• bow offers a strong aoe with volley and another one with arrow spray

Critical Charge:

• a gap closer which you use once in a fight

Cleave gives you a aoe shield that practically makes you in invincible in large aoe fights....

Critical Charge... If you're only using this 1 times a fight... then you're doing it wrong.. every time you avoid AOE in a boss fight you use it to get back at the boss faster... and every time you are getting a crit.... As well as it works well with other knock back effects from wrecking blow or bow knock back...

DPS numbers are not the be all and end all of game play.. the cleave shield is very effective and allows to the healer to focus on other players because your pretty much immune to damage in large packs.. critical charge can be used a lot with many boss mechanics that force melee to roll away from them.

crit charge -> roll back -> crit charge-> execute FTW

Strider_Roshin

You know why the 2H is a thing? Because of Rally. Otherwise the weapon wouldn't get used. I use the 2H on my Nightblade, and my Stamplar. On my DK and stam sorc however I use DW because they have a means of acquiring major brutality elsewhere. It's not being used because it's competitive, it's being used because it's a necessary evil. The 2H desperately needs a damage buff. Not only does it gives lower weapon damage, but it also limits you big time on item sets. If you have an alternative means of acquiring major brutality, there is absolutely no reason to use the 2H.

charley222

i think most player use 2 hand for buff and not for is main attack Uppercut. this is my main issue , so conan the barbarian in eso have low dps and get always is ass beat in pvp because is main attack suck


I GUESS HERE CONAN THE BARBARIAN DONT HAVE IS CASTING DELAY

Integral1900

I'm sticking with two handed, I've had to give up vet content as I'm so tired of the negative reaction it gets, but I have two things the dual wielders will never have... I look cool, and I'm plausible at the same time

Integral1900

Conan ftw, god I love that movie, the recent remake was pure garbage

Asardes

I've completed VICP and VWGT as 2H/Bow DD on my main. For speed runs. But the other DD had some pretty good AoE and I focused mainly on the big and dangerous targets like harvesters, flesh atronachs and crematorial guards, as well as the bosses, where a fast execute was needed. I wouldn't try VRoM or VCoS with that setup though. Had a 2H stamplar in the latter and he was pretty weak.

Cherryblossom

I have to say I disagree, I like the 2 hander, I think I will swap on my stam sorc and see the DPS difference. I'll let you know.

Strider_Roshin

@Alcast @Deltia you guys know a thing or two about PvE right? Please feel free to chime in, and tell us how competitive the 2H is in PvE.

Autolycus

@Strider_Roshin It's a very clear verdict tbh, you need only to equip it once to see for yourself how 2H is exceedingly poor in all aspects of pve, aside from leveling. VMA weapons only further the disparity, but it's not the cause. 2H is simply designed for pvp, and depending on the context, it can be incredibly lackluster there too.

CultOfMMO

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

@Alcast @Deltia you guys know a thing or two about PvE right? Please feel free to chime in, and tell us how competitive the 2H is in PvE.

I'd be so pissed to be called upon in such a trivial topic with an already well established answer that anyone can easily test for themselves.

it is NOT viable, period

Strider_Roshin

Autolycus wrote: »

@Strider_Roshin It's a very clear verdict tbh, you need only to equip it once to see for yourself how 2H is exceedingly poor in all aspects of pve, aside from leveling. VMA weapons only further the disparity, but it's not the cause. 2H is simply designed for pvp, and depending on the context, it can be incredibly lackluster there too.

CultOfMMO wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

@Alcast @Deltia you guys know a thing or two about PvE right? Please feel free to chime in, and tell us how competitive the 2H is in PvE.

I'd be so pissed to be called upon in such a trivial topic with an already well established answer that anyone can easily test for themselves.

it is NOT viable, period

And yet, there are plenty of people that are debating otherwise, and in many cases outright against any buffs for the 2H whatsoever. The 2H is only good for its major brutality, and quite frankly ZOS needs to make it so you're not so incredibly handicapped by having to use it over DW.

Asardes

Autolycus wrote: »

@Strider_Roshin It's a very clear verdict tbh, you need only to equip it once to see for yourself how 2H is exceedingly poor in all aspects of pve, aside from leveling. VMA weapons only further the disparity, but it's not the cause. 2H is simply designed for pvp, and depending on the context, it can be incredibly lackluster there too.

For Nightblades using 2H in PvP is not even necessary since they have a gap closer, cheap spammable and debuff and strong execute, all stamina based as class skills. And for the other classes only critical rush/stampede and executioner/reverse slash are useful, besides the heal from rally. Dizzying Swing/Wrecking Blow can only be used to kill noobs, because the cast time of the latter is so long it's easily avoidable or bashable. Brawler AoE is really weak too. Maybe it can work against a squishy noob zerg entering a resource tower but even that's doubtful.

CultOfMMO

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

@Strider_Roshin It's a very clear verdict tbh, you need only to equip it once to see for yourself how 2H is exceedingly poor in all aspects of pve, aside from leveling. VMA weapons only further the disparity, but it's not the cause. 2H is simply designed for pvp, and depending on the context, it can be incredibly lackluster there too.

CultOfMMO wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

@Alcast @Deltia you guys know a thing or two about PvE right? Please feel free to chime in, and tell us how competitive the 2H is in PvE.

I'd be so pissed to be called upon in such a trivial topic with an already well established answer that anyone can easily test for themselves.

it is NOT viable, period

And yet, there are plenty of people that are debating otherwise, and in many cases outright against any buffs for the 2H whatsoever. The 2H is only good for its major brutality, and quite frankly ZOS needs to make it so you're not so incredibly handicapped by having to use it over DW.

debating otherwise as in they claim 2h can do more dmg? god bless them and anyone who runs in their grp...

as for buffing 2h, i have no problem with 2h counting as 2 set piece but they need to add an extra dummy item that the player needs to obtain as well, otherwise it vastly reduces the grinding time. Perhaps an extra jewelry slot only open if you have a 2h equipped, the 2h itself has half the trait value, and the jewel has the other half. and yes the jewel can drop in prosperous (huehue)

other than that, theres no point in buffing 2h damage because its never meant to do damage, its for solo survivability and utility

Autolycus

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

@Strider_Roshin It's a very clear verdict tbh, you need only to equip it once to see for yourself how 2H is exceedingly poor in all aspects of pve, aside from leveling. VMA weapons only further the disparity, but it's not the cause. 2H is simply designed for pvp, and depending on the context, it can be incredibly lackluster there too.

CultOfMMO wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

@Alcast @Deltia you guys know a thing or two about PvE right? Please feel free to chime in, and tell us how competitive the 2H is in PvE.

I'd be so pissed to be called upon in such a trivial topic with an already well established answer that anyone can easily test for themselves.

it is NOT viable, period

And yet, there are plenty of people that are debating otherwise, and in many cases outright against any buffs for the 2H whatsoever. The 2H is only good for its major brutality, and quite frankly ZOS needs to make it so you're not so incredibly handicapped by having to use it over DW.

Asardes wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

@Strider_Roshin It's a very clear verdict tbh, you need only to equip it once to see for yourself how 2H is exceedingly poor in all aspects of pve, aside from leveling. VMA weapons only further the disparity, but it's not the cause. 2H is simply designed for pvp, and depending on the context, it can be incredibly lackluster there too.

For Nightblades using 2H in PvP is not even necessary since they have a gap closer, cheap spammable and debuff and strong execute, all stamina based as class skills. And for the other classes only critical rush/stampede and executioner/reverse slash are useful, besides the heal from rally. Dizzying Swing/Wrecking Blow can only be used to kill noobs, because the cast time of the latter is so long it's easily avoidable or bashable. Brawler AoE is really weak too. Maybe it can work against a squishy noob zerg entering a resource tower but even that's doubtful.

From the sounds of it, it seems we're all in agreement on this. There is no doubt in my mind that there are plenty of people using 2H in a pve setting. I genuinely wish that it was a viable option (edit: *viable option in competitive content), as someone who used to run a 2H brawler build in pve. As soon as vMA weapons were introduced, however, the disparity between dps potential for a 2H vs. literally every other combination became too great. Simply switching to DW at that point increased by dps by 25%, and this is without vMA weapons.

Once I had vMA weapons, along with various other skills and passives, etc. my net increase to dps since the day I switched is approximately 75-80% more than with 2H. And I'm not even at the top of the dps food chain, I usually fall somewhere between 32-35k, sometimes a bit more in an ideal, fully-buffed raid setting. But keep in mind this was awhile ago. I'm pretty sure 2H builds today could pull more than I did back then, but in all of my maths and theorycrafting I've yet to find any way to place 2H dps on-par with any other weapon combination.

Alcast

Can you do most content with a 2H Build? Yes
Is it optimal? no
Does it really matter? Depends on your goals in the game

For vet dungeons a 2H build is totally fine, ofcourse you will pull less dps then a dude with DW/bow but w/e. Maybe I should do a 2H/DW or 2H/bow build for vet dungeons or solo questing?

CP Allocation will be different mostly if you use a 2H build, plus Werewolf also benefits more from the CP Allocation of a 2H Build I guess.

Now the question is, on what class?

Strider_Roshin

Alcast wrote: »

Can you do most content with a 2H Build? Yes
Is it optimal? no
Does it really matter? Depends on your goals in the game

For vet dungeons a 2H build is totally fine, ofcourse you will pull less dps then a dude with DW/bow but w/e. Maybe I should do a 2H/DW or 2H/bow build for vet dungeons or solo questing?

CP Allocation will be different mostly if you use a 2H build, plus Werewolf also benefits more from the CP Allocation of a 2H Build I guess.

Now the question is, on what class?

Stamblade would be the best choice. All of the other classes benefit too much from the thaumaturge passive.

Asmael

No spammable Stam DK

---

5x TBS, 2x Kra'gh, 3x VO, 1x Maelstrom 2h, 1x Maelstrom bow

Thief & Shadow mundus / Max HP & stam food / All armor divines, weapon damage glyphs on jewelry, sharpened weapons / Khajiit or Redguard

2H
1. Venomous Claw
2. Noxious Breath
3. Carve
4. Critical Rush
5. Flame of Oblivion
R. Flawless Dawnbreaker

Bow
1. Rearming Trap
2. Endless Hail
3. Poison Injection
4. Acid Spray
5. Expert Hunter (any morph)

Bring your friendly DK tank to provide you with Major Brutality. Simply rotate thru abilities. Watch out, it's an extremely complex rotation:

1, 2, 3, 4, 5 (swap), 1, 2, 3, 4 (swap). Repeat until your target is dead. Weave in light attacks of course.

For AoE, drop Endless Hail, Rearming Trap, Carve, then spam Acid Spray.

There goes the no-spammable (only single target tho) stam DK DD, that's some quality derp build right here, and wouldn't recommend it unless you have a lot of time on your hands.

On the bright side, just use 2x Maelstrom daggers, change abilities, and you're back to BiS build.

Alucardo

It's a shame, reverse slice is so great at dropping trash mobs. Other than that there's nothing really too useful in there for PVE. That's not to say it can't be done, even in vet dungeons. A DW/Bow guy will outclass you in every aspect, but as long as you get the job done and have fun, who cares?