Werewolf Tank/Support Toggle: Morph with 30% less Weapon Damage

GrumpyDuckling

TLDR: We have 2 Werewolf morphs that basically do the same thing. I suggest changes to one of those morphs to create a toggle, support/tank morph that adds some versatility to Werewolf game play.

Introduction

For a long time Werewolf-loving players on this forum have asked for and discussed the idea of a Werewolf toggle. I have also spent a lot of time thinking about how a pure Werewolf toggle could be implemented into the game - without breaking balance or ruining the fun that comes with playing as a devotee of Hircine. After years of reading PTS notes and patch updates to try to get an idea about the direction of the game, and spending a lot of time playing as a Werewolf, watching video, and reading feedback about Werewolf gameplay - as well as considering issues of balance, fun, and usefulness - I am unveiling a well-thought-out Werewolf toggle suggestion.

Below, I share the main idea for implementing a toggle, tanking morph and then give specific details about skills and passive changes. Some skills and passives do not change, while others receive changes that make a toggle with significantly reduced damage more useful. I hope you enjoy and find value in what you are about to read.

Note: It would also be great it Werewolves could resurrect allies, as there are times in which a tank must resurrect a fallen ally.

The Idea

• Keep the "Berserker" morph as is, but change the "Pack Leader" morph into a toggle that works like the old version of the Nightblade's skill, "Leeching Strikes." A significant reduction in damage done in exchange for the option to spend infinite time in Werewolf form.
• Make tweaks to specific Werewolf skills and passives that would allow for a support/tank Werwolf by inserting already existing mechanics into the skills - such as taunt, maim, reduced block cost, etc. (full details seen below for each specific skill). This allows for utility/tank gameplay while in Werewolf form.
• Passive abilities have added components that work specifically, and only, for the "Pack Leader," toggle morph. All passives remain the same for the "Berserker" morph.

Pack Leader Change

Pack Leader Morph

• Transform into a beast, fearing up to 3 nearby enemies for 4 seconds. While transformed, your Light Attacks cause enemies to bleed for [x] Physical Damage over 8 seconds and your Physical and Spell Resistance are increased by 9966.
• While slotted, your Stamina Recovery is increased by 15%.
• Summon 2 wolf companions for the duration of your transformation. If killed, they will return after 10 seconds.
• This morph becomes a toggle and reduces weapon damage by 30%. Also summons 2 wolf companions to fight by your side.

Skill Morph Changes

Feral Pounce

• Pounce on an enemy with primal fury to deal [x] Physical Damage and immobilize enemies within 5 meters for 4 seconds.
• Pouncing from at least 10 meters away adds 1 second to the duration of the immobilize.
• Adds immobilize.

Hircine's Fortitude

• Invoke the Huntsman's blessing to heal yourself for [x] and an additional [y] over 8 seconds. Also grants Minor Vitality, increasing healing received by 8% for 8 seconds.
• Adds heal over time effect and grants Minor Vitality.

Ferocious Roar

• Roar with bloodlust to invigorate allies, granting them Major Brutality and Major Sorcery for 30 seconds.
• Grants Major Brutality and Major Sorcery to allies within 28 meters.

Howl of Despair

• Cry out to an enemy with a deafening howl, taunting them to attack you for 15 seconds.
• Also afflicts enemy with Major Fracture and Major Breach, reducing Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by [y] for 12 seconds.
• Taunts and applies Major Fracture and Major Breach to enemy.

Claws of Anguish

• Maul enemies in front of you with your tainted claws, dealing [x] Physical Damage and an additional [x] Disease Damage over 7 seconds.
• Also afflicts enemies with Major Defile, reducing the effectiveness of healing on them by 30% for the effect's duration.
• Targets effected receive less healing.

Additions to Passives (Pack Leader specific)

All passives remain exactly as they are now for Berserker form, and gain specific tooltips that activate while in Pack Leader form.

Pursuit (2 ranks) - Unchanged

• WHILE IN WEREWOLF FORM
• Increases Heavy Attack Stamina return by 50/100%.

Devour (1 rank)

• WHILE IN PACK LEADER WEREWOLF FORM
• Allows you to devour a corpse to add Minor Protection for 30 seconds, reducing your damage taken by 8%.

Blood Rage (2 ranks)

• WHILE IN PACK LEADER WEREWOLF FORM
• Adds Minor Resolve, and Minor Ward for 3 seconds every time you take damage, increasing your Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by 1320. This effect can occur once every 5/3 seconds.

Blood Moon (1 rank) - Unchanged

• Allows player to turn another player into a Werewolf once every 7 days by returning to the Werewolf ritual site.
• Players infected with Vampirism cannot be turned.

Savage Strength (2 ranks)

• WHILE IN PACK LEADER WEREWOLF FORM
• Reduces cost of blocking by 15/30%.

Call of the Pack (2 ranks)

• WHILE IN PACK LEADER WEREWOLF FORM
• Increases your stamina recovery by 1/2% depending on the number of players in your party, up to 4. Players do not have to be in Werewolf form.

Images Source: http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/World+Skills
Last Updated: 2/15/19

Smasherx74

I just use WW for the 15% stam regen on my bow. Pretty useless being activated, if it was a toggle so you can stay WW then it might be more viable or at least cool to walk around as WW.

danno8

It should not have a timer as long as you are in combat. Timer starts once you are out of combat. This way you don't have to feed mid combat and constantly worry about your timer.

Instead of feeding extending the timer it should grant you minor berserk instead for 10 seconds.

sly007

No damage taken while transforming please.

RavenSworn

danno8 wrote: »

It should not have a timer as long as you are in combat. Timer starts once you are out of combat. This way you don't have to feed mid combat and constantly worry about your timer.

Instead of feeding extending the timer it should grant you minor berserk instead for 10 seconds.

That would then mean almost infinite time in PvP. I'm not that much an advocate for PvP but we do need to think about both sides of the coin.

I really like the changes but may I suggest something? Perhaps Howl of Despair will afflict the enemies with minor fracture and breach.

There seems to be this visual bonus for vampires when they are afflicted that werewolves do not have. How about having the Wolf companions as a passive slotted ability aside from the stamina recovery even before they are transformed?

danno8

uniq_faznrb18_ESO wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

It should not have a timer as long as you are in combat. Timer starts once you are out of combat. This way you don't have to feed mid combat and constantly worry about your timer.

Instead of feeding extending the timer it should grant you minor berserk instead for 10 seconds.

That would then mean almost infinite time in PvP.

So? Are werewolves dominating the scene in PvP right now? Hardly.

Werewolves are so limited with what they can do that anyone with an immovability potion will be able to fight them off, since they rely so heavily on the fear->howl burst combo.

If someone wants to spend 300 ultimate to change into a werewolf, having only 1 bar of skills that are all the same to every werewolf with no variability and complete predictability, then I say let them at least not have to worry about timers.

GrumpyDuckling

uniq_faznrb18_ESO wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

It should not have a timer as long as you are in combat. Timer starts once you are out of combat. This way you don't have to feed mid combat and constantly worry about your timer.

Instead of feeding extending the timer it should grant you minor berserk instead for 10 seconds.

That would then mean almost infinite time in PvP. I'm not that much an advocate for PvP but we do need to think about both sides of the coin.

I really like the changes but may I suggest something? Perhaps Howl of Despair will afflict the enemies with minor fracture and breach.

There seems to be this visual bonus for vampires when they are afflicted that werewolves do not have. How about having the Wolf companions as a passive slotted ability aside from the stamina recovery even before they are transformed?

I spent a lot of time trying to "perfect" a balanced Werewolf toggle, but I'm open to suggestions. Adding minor fracture and breach to Howl of Despair would mean that both major and minor would be added. Might be a little too powerful. Unless of course, you mean that the majors should be replaced with the minors?

Cathexis

I suggested this i think it was around the thieves guild update and people lost their freaking minds.


But to me it makes a lot of sense. Werewolf has a high ult cost and there are a lot of times when you need access to other abilities. It would make werewolf skills a lot more utilitary and dynamic

GrumpyDuckling

Cathexis wrote: »

I suggested this i think it was around the thieves guild update and people lost their freaking minds.


But to me it makes a lot of sense. Werewolf has a high ult cost and there are a lot of times when you need access to other abilities. It would make werewolf skills a lot more utilitary and dynamic

Agreed. Werewolf has two ultimate forms that are all about pumping out fast damage. But if just one of those morphs offered a different way to play - support - then Werewolf instantly becomes more interesting.

sneakymitchell

sly007 wrote: »

No damage taken while transforming please.

And that's when DKs come in with the battle roar passive.

IlCanis_LupuslI

The only thing i would like to see is that the Ww timer only goes down when you are in Battle. Would make it much more player friendly in dungeons

idk

Why would anyone want the opportunity to change into WW form at will if it meant they would be weak?

acw37162

I would gladly take an underpowered morph so I could run around in werewolf form while in PVE land.

GrumpyDuckling

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Why would anyone want the opportunity to change into WW form at will if it meant they would be weak?

Because it would be a fun way to experience tanking/support/defiling. Right now there's not much incentive for a tank or defiler build to use Werwolf form. Adding a toggle "tank-like" option for Werewolf form would add a little flavor and fun to the tanking and defiling experience.

Sheuib

A toggle is very much unnecessary because all your have to do is group with other ww. The more ww you have the longer it lasts and at some point it becomes permanent. I think that point is 5.

GrumpyDuckling

Sheuib wrote: »

A toggle is very much unnecessary because all your have to do is group with other ww. The more ww you have the longer it lasts and at some point it becomes permanent. I think that point is 5.

It's more than just a toggle, it's altering some skills to make Werewolf more versatile.

Are you sure that Werewolf can become permanent? I've never heard of that. I know there is a cost reduction for the more Werewolves there are, though.

AmericanSpy

I love this post, as Hircine himself, I love to see WW threads with this much information and creativity. I have posted many of my own, with a current running thread more specific to WW gear sets.

Pack Leader change: instead of 30% wep dmg reduction u should just lose the bleed damage. This will allow your abilities to continue to hurt but the main form of WW dmg will be removed.

Feral Pounce: Dosen't need a change, I would prefer to see BRUTAL pounce receive the immobilize(its already AOE based) would make both skills viable

Hircine's Fortitude: Great adjustment.

Ferocious Roar: I like the slow idea but the original passive of "killing a feared target" is a bad one. I would be interested to see how this ability could act as an AOE slow 50%, disorient, off balance for 10 seconds, No Fear.

Howl of Despair: I would prefer to go in a different direction with this ability mostly because I think granting WW a Major Fracture/Breach is game breaking(even though its intended purpose would be for tanking). I like the fact that its supposed to increase the basic attack damage, the fact its hidden behind an activation is whats wrong. My suggestion:

Howl of Despair – Piercing Howl – Crush enemy with a deafening howl dealing X Physical Damage and knocking them down for 3 seconds. Feeding Frenzy, increase light and heavy attack damage by 10% and increase weapon attack speed by 15% for 10 seconds.

Pursuit: I would like to see this changed BACK to one of the original passives that increased your attack speed based on subsequent attacks on the SAME target(given my idea for Ferocious Roar was not taken).

Devour: Instead of minor protection I would like to see something more active: ie gain Health/Stam/Magicka while devouring. This would be both lore friendly as well as balanced(its very easily interrupted already)

Blood Rage: I like your idea(again intended as the Tanks version). My feeling with this is that it will not balance well with the Berserker version of gain 3 sec in form. I think there would need to be a balance on both ends of the passive.

Savage Strength: I like that it is balanced against the Berserker form, it made me change my idea for your Pack Leader morph.

Call of the Pack: This ability is critical for Berserkers, it must stay unchained. As the pack leader it is still your responsibility to maintain the pack. If anything, it should be changed so that Berserker gets the suggested change.

Great post, and Great ideas. This is what I like to see from the Werewolf Community.

-Hircine-

GrumpyDuckling

Updated the original post for this thread. (10/26/17)

GrumpyDuckling

Update the post again. (11/30/17)

Glaiceana

This is very well thought out, well done!

I do like the ideas. I admit I would be sad that Pack Leader would have its damage reduced by that much, but I also do admit that I chose Pack Leader because of the appearance, over anything else. Therefore, my concern is rather selfish or non serious.
So! For the opportunity to have a toggle wolf form, AND have the chance to tank/support in your form, this is a fair exchange I believe! It would diversify the use of werewolves, and further help us run proper pack groups, for dungeons and trials.

When we did a run of Aetherian Archive as a full group of werewolves, it would have been handy to have an actual tank werewolf. We completed it and did fine, but we were lucky for the final boss, where the axes chose one player, and they just ran them around the room. But if we could control who taunts, that werewolf player could actually do a werewolf tank build, and have heavy armour etc specific to this role.

GrumpyDuckling

Updated original post. (1/3/18)

DocFrost72

Very well thought out, could be cool for pve ( @ZOS_Wrobel ) and pvp ( @ZOS_BrianWheeler ) alike!

Shameless prodding.

ScardyFox

I'd like a toggle... as I have mentioned for 4 years now.

Anyway, if they don't do that (or won't) they could allow us to generate ultimate at a 50% reduction while is werewolf for so reverting won't be so utterly depressing. However, that said I still think a toggle is best without repercussions to werewolf ( I dont think we need nerfing if we had a toggle) and it would open up new passives, a purely werewolf ultimate to use in the were state, give us the ability to sneak, etc.

Like I have been saying for months now - if you give werewolves a great overhaul (not the crappy nerfs we keep getting) you could basically advertise it as another class in the game. Same with vampires.

GrumpyDuckling

Updated the original post today, 2/15/19, with some tweaks specific to Ferocious Roar.

Wuuffyy

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Updated the original post today, 2/15/19, with some tweaks specific to Ferocious Roar.

No.

Aznox

@GrumpyDuckling , My opinion on what you want :

A toggle :
- This has much more implications that you seems to imply on werewolf balance
- A 30% weapon damage malus doesn't even start to cover them.

To allow werewolf tanking
- As much as i agree, ZoS already declared they don't
- I think making tormentor set work with pounce would be a more subtle way to do it.
- You don't need a Toggle morph to achieve that.
- You don't even need the other bonuses you listed to make it viable for 4man content
- WW tanking should only be "somewhat viable" and should never risk to be "BiS"

Moonsorrow

Aznox wrote: »

- I think making tormentor set work with pounce would be a more subtle way to do it.

I really wish it would work, would be enough for ww vet dungeon tanking.

Simple change that would make some fun dungeon runs with ww, but would not make ww "op". Just fun option.

DocFrost72

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

- I think making tormentor set work with pounce would be a more subtle way to do it.

I really wish it would work, would be enough for ww vet dungeon tanking.

Simple change that would make some fun dungeon runs with ww, but would not make ww "op". Just fun option.

Iirc, the reasoning was that werewolf pounce is a "leap" not a "charge", so you don't need to change the set, just make the ability a charge.

Only issue there is if you are rooted you cannot use a charge, I believe.

TheMikrobe

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Aznox wrote: »

- I think making tormentor set work with pounce would be a more subtle way to do it.

I really wish it would work, would be enough for ww vet dungeon tanking.

Simple change that would make some fun dungeon runs with ww, but would not make ww "op". Just fun option.

Iirc, the reasoning was that werewolf pounce is a "leap" not a "charge", so you don't need to change the set, just make the ability a charge.

Only issue there is if you are rooted you cannot use a charge, I believe.

If you use Combat Metrics add-on then you can see that monsters gain the debuff "Charge Snare" when you use Pounce, so it at least in some parts of the game it seems to count as a charge, just not in the calculations for Tormentor. I really wish that set worked with Pounce.

The other change I would like is for Ferocious Roar to be changed from fear to taunt. I think the Roar morphs are the ones that could most use differentiation.

Current: terrify up to 6 nearby enemies, fearing them for 4 seconds and setting them Off Balance for 5 seconds
Change: goad up to 6 nearby enemies, taunting them for 4 seconds and setting them Off Balance for 5 seconds

An AoE taunt that only lasted 4 seconds would still be way worse than the 15 second single target taunts, but it would open up some fun possibilities for a werewolf.