Combat tutorial quests and in-game ESOpedia

Alagras

Hi everyone

It seems to me that the ESO playerbase is pretty fractured between players who google for infos about the game, or at least are part of some good helping guild, and those who don't. Without surprise the first ones tends to perform much better.

When these 2 kinds of players find themselves playing together, dramas often happen as we all know, weakest players get called noobs, kicked from groups etc.. Each "group" will accuse the other of being the source of the pain, and it's quite a lose-lose situation.

Granted, game isn't that complex, but enough to end up with many not-dumb-at-all people playing very ignorantly, even at 561 CPs. For some people, googling for infos feels like a job, and as they already have one it's not what they want. For them, infos must come from game itself, possibly under the form of... a game.
To be honest, some people should also read tooltips a bit more. They got more clear over time. But judging players isn't even the point, point is: "could it be different?" and I think it could.

Sure there 'll always be hardcore and casual players, but competence gap doesn't have to be so big at all. Game doesn't really teach you how to play, if it did I think you'd see the average competence climb seriously, and we'd all benefit from that, Zenimax included. People playing better = more fun = more players. Or so my Hunt-Mother told me.

So what I think could help is:


1) COMBAT TUTORIAL QUESTS

This could be done in many ways, here's how I see it: In each zone, from the starting one, the Fighters Guild would have a sort of master of arms in its hall. He or she would propose, as a quest, some little tutorial/test, possibly in an istanced cellar if more convenient. In each zone the main quest takes you through, you'd find a new master of arms (MoA) at fighters Guild hall, with a slightly more complex and challenging test each time. Some would be general, others teaching the basics of group roles, Tank, DD, Healer. Little achievements when done and people will do them all.

These tests would be shaped around avoiding the most common mistakes and misconceptions we still see in some high-level players. Wich are those, by the way? Here's my quick top 3, I'd like to know yours:

-Spamming 1-2 skills instead of using the whole "deck"

Some people aren't sure where they bound weapon swap. Incitating them to make fire of all their wood, from start, is very important.


-Spamming over time abilities

Ok many DoTs in ESO also have an initial burst damage, but still. Here the MoA should somehow initiate people to the idea of rotation... without telling them exactly what theirs should be either. Wich may be tricky, but just introduce the "only keep your DoTs up and burst in-between" idea (and practice). Something simple, with only one DoT to begin with.


-killing trash mobs one by one

Learn roughly when to choose AoEs or single target. Exact answer isn't always that obvious, but we see people spamming Snipe on packs this shouldn't be.


-Standing in reds, or walking away instead of roll-dodging.

Here I guarantee that if the tests consists in doing nothing but roll-dodging out of appearing reddies for one minute, with some stam feeding from MoA, people will get seriously better at it very fast


-Tanks not taunting

Great classic, this would go in the role specifics tutos. These could be interesting to shape


There are quests a little like that in Reapers March with an arena, I admit it's been a while and I should redo them. (I'm going to) But we need something much more central.


Post is getting long so the other thing that could imo help is a

2)SOLID IN-GAME ESOPEDIA

Tooltips and Help aren't that bad, but they should be good, very good if possible. Hyperlinks everywhere, clear definitions of all game concepts. Every skill and morph, every set listed, every buff/debuff with where you can get them from etc


Thank you for reading, and sorry for approximative english....

What do you think? How to help those who make no research understand mechanics better?

runagate

There is an astonishing lack of ability to get vital information in-game in ESO.

Nestor

The Help Menus, at least on the PC (and I am sure on the consoles) is quite good. Try those if you ever have a question. They are not perfect, but I am surprise at how much is in there when I remember to pull them up.

As far as combat style and getting better at it, that is pretty much part of the game to learn how to do this on your own. A tutorial might be nice to help some players. The trick would be to make it effective, without it turning into a DPS Test Dummy or Grind Delve. Could not have any Exp/loot for those mobs, and make it instanced so that no one has to wade through grinders to do things.

Asardes

Tool tips and small hints in game are not bad, in fact they are pretty clear. The problem is that a lot of people don't even bother to read those. Do you think they will ever bother to read more complex content? It's already available online on other sites, and it's pretty detailed.

Taleof2Cities

runagate wrote: »

There is an astonishing lack of ability to get vital information in-game in ESO.

Bracing for the incoming console player posts that agree with this sentiment ...

SquareSausage

I very much like the idea of a tutorial in game play for group content.

It can be very daunting for people to try group stuff for the first time with no experience of it prior and it will help brush up on people's skills who simply dont know how to maximise their potential.

Sigtric

Asardes wrote: »

Tool tips and small hints in game are not bad, in fact they are pretty clear. The problem is that a lot of people don't even bother to read those. Do you think they will ever bother to read more complex content? It's already available online on other sites, and it's pretty detailed.

More complex content is in the help menu, and most people ignore it.

runagate

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

runagate wrote: »

There is an astonishing lack of ability to get vital information in-game in ESO.

Bracing for the incoming console player posts that agree with this sentiment ...

Well, seriously - there's a ton of things we forum warriors know that a relatively solo/casual player is unlikely to ever discover. Or at least only gradually and painfully.

What is the rate at which a wall repairs itself in Cyrdodiil as affected by controlled resources and their particular strength?

What are all of the Sets which proc from a fully-charged heavy attack?

I could easily list 100 things off the top of my head that most people wouldn't know and frankly have no way to discover should the question even occur to them.

idk

@Alagras

The diversity of players skills and builds on ESO isn't much different the. Other MMOs just as builds posted online varry in effectiveness.

I've yet to see a decent tutorial in a game to begin with and to accomplish any significant results the tutorial not only needs to be much better than any other tutorial, it really needs to be comprehensive.

Further, some just like to play as they want. Someone said that was what ESO is all about. Nothing will change these people's minds other so let them enjoy.

Alagras

runagate wrote: »

There is an astonishing lack of ability to get vital information in-game in ESO.

Heheh you're a bit severe it has improved with time, give the Help section a new chance you might get surprised xD

But you're right some vital stuff is missing. One exemple: Elder Scrolls games used to allow hybrids mag/stam, and ESO is sold as a "play the way you want" game, but in reality you have to choose betxeen the 2. It takes many people time to get that if they aren't told by guildies or guides. I see 531 stamsorcs using Splashed Lightning.

@Sigtric @Asardes @Nestor

I agree Help isn't bad. But 1) it could be better, with hyperlinks, and exhaustive list of skills, buffs, and sets, where you can get them from etc 2) People would learn better if the "lessons" also took the form of a mini-game, and little by little.

Nestor wrote: »

As far as combat style and getting better at it, that is pretty much part of the game to learn how to do this on your own.

Yes... but we all can see that for many people it doesn't work that well. I'm not blaming nor excusing them, it's not the point, I just see a problem and wonder what could be done. Not explain everything to them, but the basics.

Nestor wrote: »

A tutorial might be nice to help some players. The trick would be to make it effective, without it turning into a DPS Test Dummy or Grind Delve. Could not have any Exp/loot for those mobs, and make it instanced so that no one has to wade through grinders to do things.

Agree, no xp or loot, only an achievement. And yes making it effective would be tricky, but doable, in fact it could be fun to design, and play. I see a few "narration" problems, like NPCs aren't supposed to name skills, or classes (only Cyro boards do afaik), but there are ways I think.

About classes there could even be a lore side quest associated, where you get to know where the combat style came from, who founded the classes basically.

SquareSausage wrote: »

I very much like the idea of a tutorial in game play for group content.

It can be very daunting for people to try group stuff for the first time with no experience of it prior and it will help brush up on people's skills who simply dont know how to maximise their potential.

Can't agree more I think we heavily underestimate the number of people who don't group as they don't feel confident for it, had bad experience etc... And many leave the game soon after finishing main quest if group playing doesn't retain them.

Alagras

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

I've yet to see a decent tutorial in a game to begin with and to accomplish any significant results the tutorial not only needs to be much better than any other tutorial, it really needs to be comprehensive.

I disagree it would need to be comprehensive. I'm not saying it should train new players into champions, only that it could help them not missing the basics.

It's true many games have poor tutorials and rely on community to make guides, but imo it's a mistake as it wouldn't take millions to develop either.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Further, some just like to play as they want. Someone said that was what ESO is all about. Nothing will change these people's minds other so let them enjoy.

As you say those who really don't care about learning mechanics will keep on this way, so I don't think the master of arms would break their fun.

And those who avoid groups not to be pointed as the weaklink don't always enjoy it that much, goal would be to bring them back in the circuit.

CasNation

I agree. Especially for the group roles for the undaunted dungeons. Way too many people simply arent provided the info they need to perform in a group environment.

Hallothiel

Think this is an excellent idea. Especially if could try out different styles needed for pve / pvp / groups.

Have just started pvp after over a year in pve and it has been a steep learning curve in how to play in this part of the game. (And dealing with lag. Good gods can it be bad. Was convinced for a while that skills didnt work the same in Cyrodiil for some reason just because the lag was bad. But I'm rambling off topic. )

It would also help with learning about roles on groups / dungeons / trials. Its all very well being able to run through questlines 'playing as you want' but then you come to groups and suddenly you have to choose a role - and you have no idea as to how that works - you can't really get through the quests alone being mainly a healer for example - so how do you learn to heal effectively? Or tank? So some sort of tutorial would be very beneficial.

Alagras

@CasNation , @Hallothiel

thank you

And yes, skills work the same in Cyro, just... later

TheImperfect

This all sounds like a great idea, anything that helps learning is all for the better. I'd like to see a dungeon guide for every dungeon you can read before queueing that gives you a little map, basic idea of layout and maybe bosses and what to expect. Doesn't have to be a novel, paragraph would do.

Enodoc

I like the idea of the Fighters Guild introducing some of the concepts that weren't covered by the Wailing Prison.

You may also be interested in this concept for introducing Group Dungeon mechanics through the Undaunted:

Enodoc wrote: »

[A solo quest to teach dungeon basics] is a great idea. I think this would be most easily incorporated by making it part of the Undaunted recruitment quest "One of the Undaunted". Change the requirements of that quest so that instead of just having to set foot inside the first zone's Group Dungeon by yourself (you don't even have to clear the dungeon to complete the quest), you are sent to an instanced dungeon with 3 NPCs.

Logically, these NPCs would be Turuk Redclaws, Mighty Mordra, and Kailstig the Axe, as they are the three recruiters. This would be a short instance introducing the group dungeon mechanics and would have you take on the role of tank, healer, ranged DPS and melee DPS in sequence. If you don't have the appropriate weapon/class skills, you would be temporarily given access to a resto staff and Grand Healing for the healer section, a mace/shield and Puncture for the tank section, a bow and Poison Arrow and/or a destro staff and Destructive Touch for the ranged DPS section (your choice of either or both), and a battle axe and Cleave and/or dual daggers and Twin Slashes for the melee DPS section (your choice of either or both). The three recruiters would take on the roles that you are currently not exploring so that the setup is always 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 DPS.

In line with the suggestion above, successful completion of this short tutorial quest would be required to unlock the Dungeon Finder. Additional characters on the same account would not need to complete the quest again, but could if they wanted to.

Asardes

Yep, I agree that there could be a tutorial quest about group roles. For example learn to taunt and CC mobs as a tank, or heal people as a healer.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

I sorta agree with OP.I remember when I first started playing at launch, I was SO lost and such a noob. But I did use the available in-game help which is:
1) Wailing Prison Tutorial~ It got changed about a year or so ago and is different and much better than when I did it. (Except the old one allowed choice of weapons instead of just 2h sword..lol).
2) The Help Tab~ Once I found this, yes, never knew it was there, answered a ton of my questions, and is quite extensive.
3) Tool Tips & Load Screen Tips~ Yes, load screen tips get boring and some times redundant, but there is still useful info there.
4) A Good Guild~ This more than anything I used helped me learn to play. I was lucky and found 2 awesomely helpful guilds with experienced players more than happy to help me and answer my noob questions with out judgment. ( Which became the base philosophy of my own guild).
Out f Game Sources~ There are lots of good web sites, (yes, I know this is the point of OP and these are not in game, but...),
ESO Acadamy, ESOHead, Tamriel Foundries all have great Play Guides for every aspect of the game.
YouTube Video Guides~ @MissBizz , Deltia Gaming and lots of others have some great and detailed videos about everything from crafting, mounts, weapons, dungeons, almost anything you could want to know.

But, the sad fact is, *"You can lead a horse to water, etc, etc,"*. There are SO many players I encounter that just want to hit max level as fast as they can, and never bother to actually "learn to play", no offense meant. I have run with CP531's that don't even know the advantages of bar swapping! Just use 2 skills on one bar.

runagate wrote: »

Well, seriously - there's a ton of things we forum warriors know that a relatively solo/casual player is unlikely to ever discover. Or at least only gradually and painfully.
What is the rate at which a wall repairs itself in Cyrdodiil as affected by controlled resources and their particular strength?
What are all of the Sets which proc from a fully-charged heavy attack?
I could easily list 100 things off the top of my head that most people wouldn't know and frankly have no way to discover should the question even occur to them.

This. If you look at some of the Website Play Guides, they are huge and take tons of pages, and as said most won't use them even if they were in game.

My best advise to new players, find a good, helpful guild.
Thats my 2 Septims...Huzzah!!

Hallothiel

@Enodoc

Such an excellent & well thought out suggestion / solution. Heartily second it.

(Another would be to get rid of the need for set roles but that's a different thread entirely )

Alagras

Enodoc wrote: »

I like the idea of the Fighters Guild introducing some of the concepts that weren't covered by the Wailing Prison.

You may also be interested in this concept for introducing Group Dungeon mechanics through the Undaunted:

Enodoc wrote: »

[A solo quest to teach dungeon basics] is a great idea. I think this would be most easily incorporated by making it part of the Undaunted recruitment quest "One of the Undaunted". Change the requirements of that quest so that instead of just having to set foot inside the first zone's Group Dungeon by yourself (you don't even have to clear the dungeon to complete the quest), you are sent to an instanced dungeon with 3 NPCs.

Logically, these NPCs would be Turuk Redclaws, Mighty Mordra, and Kailstig the Axe, as they are the three recruiters. This would be a short instance introducing the group dungeon mechanics and would have you take on the role of tank, healer, ranged DPS and melee DPS in sequence. If you don't have the appropriate weapon/class skills, you would be temporarily given access to a resto staff and Grand Healing for the healer section, a mace/shield and Puncture for the tank section, a bow and Poison Arrow and/or a destro staff and Destructive Touch for the ranged DPS section (your choice of either or both), and a battle axe and Cleave and/or dual daggers and Twin Slashes for the melee DPS section (your choice of either or both). The three recruiters would take on the roles that you are currently not exploring so that the setup is always 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 DPS.

In line with the suggestion above, successful completion of this short tutorial quest would be required to unlock the Dungeon Finder. Additional characters on the same account would not need to complete the quest again, but could if they wanted to.

Good idea, I also considered hiring the Undaunted for this. Also maybe the Mages guild for mag builds tutos and Fighters for stam, to help players understand that you have to choose one of the two pathes.

Your Undaunted quest reminds me of Skyrim, we did a dungeon with a Companions member after wich we could turn werewolf as I record.
If we had this quest you suggest, I still think that before going Turuk should provide a little mob-free death-free tutorial about group roles, saying something like "I don't trust you new-blood yet, prove me you can hold your role and I might enter this cave with you".
And once in dungeon, they wouldn't refrain from letting you know what they think of your job, hinting at problems while still being overall encouraging.

Also some quests where we go fighting with Lyris, Sai Sahan and Abnur Tharn could be reworked to be organized with roles.

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

I remember when I first started playing at launch, I was SO lost and such a noob.

Same here, ESO is my first MMO and while I wouldn't describe myself as dumb, it... it sometimes takes me time to understand things, that's it. I searched for infos, and agree community makes a great job at regrouping them (wich maybe turn devs lazy about it). But I feel (and just see) the pain of those who dislike the idea of making research on a game.

Reading the OP again, it sounds a bit like "please send all casus to some bootcamp so they stop sucking in PvE PuGs". That's not what I meant. I just ask for what I wish I found in-game when I started, and what could maybe bring back many solo players in the grouping circuit.

[quote="wenchmore420b14_ESO;3441938"

But, the sad fact is, *"You can lead a horse to water, etc, etc,"*. There are SO many players I encounter that just want to hit max level as fast as they can, and never bother to actually "learn to play", no offense meant.
[/quote]

Or who don't leave Old Orsinium before they hit CP 160 once you've showed it to them Well when I'm the horse a mini-game (funny if possible, also some good replies etc) is a good way to make me drink. I still remember Zelda Wind Waker's master of arms and the wood pieces he made me chop maybe 15 years ago.