Physical penetration, how much is too much?

Valykc

Hey everyone, I wanted to ask the community a question here to get a better understanding of physical penetration. Is there any downside to stacking it very high for a PVP build? Is there a point where too much penetration is overkill and not worth it? Just curious because I've been brainstorming a build today that has some outrageous physical penetration numbers, saying I did all the math right, and is still capable of pulling moderately high weapon damage. Let me hear all your thoughts!

P.s. No sexual puns intended.

Arora

I am curious to see responses to this. I would also like to know the answer to this.

Minalan

Same here, except for spell penetration in PVP.

Obviously because of the new 'spinner' set. Is the 3.8K spell penetration actually worth it? Because against a light armor or shield user it doesn't help.

PS4_ZeColmeia

Armor pen needs to be reduced or armor cap needs to be removed with easier options to raise armor values across the board.

This also may seem hypocritical given what I just said, but LA really needs higher pen. Pen&Crit are the damage methods for LA yet Pen is outclassed by one sharpened weapon.

My preference is to lower sharpened values and slightly raise LA's value. I also think LA needs to be slighly closer to MA in armor value. I think right now LA is 1/3 for HA, while MA is either 2/3 or 3/4 of HA. I think LA needs to the be the same difference between LA and MA as MA is HA. So if MA is 3/4 of HA, then LA would 9/16 of HA or roughly half.

Not a major buff, but would go a long way to helping alight magicka imbalance imho.

Rohaus

DOT builds are pretty strong against HA users. Now people can stack penetration with the new monster helm set plus the 5 piece set that increases physical penetration.

Build diversity has never had this kind of potential. There are so many counters to all builds... at this point, if you want to be truly tanky, you really have to build appropriately for it.

I have mostly been PvE grinding to obtain the new sets... only PvPed a little so far... what I have seen is people dying ridiculously fast! My own damage, combined with appropriate sets, is crazy high burst. I have only seen a couple people that can actually tank some damage... but even they are not as tanky as they were.

It just feels like HA is the only option at this point due to the insane burst damage that is occurring... even that won't save you against 2 to 3 good players that focus fire.

I have seen a couple templars that can take quite a beating before they eventually succumb.

Jaronking

It doesn't matter as long as you have one 3 proc sets you can instant kill anyone with a light attack.

hrothbern

You are talking PVP
My damage shield Sorc and Blazing Templar will love to hear as advice: "the higher the better"

Reorx_Holybeard

It depends on what content you are playing and with who. Right I'm assuming most mobs (both trash and bosses) have 18.2k resistances:

• Solo = As much as you can get, or at least up to 18k.
• Casual/PUG Dungeon/Vet Dungeon = Perhaps 10-12k.
• Trials = No more than 10k (sometimes less).
• PVP = As much as you can get? Depends on the type of armor the people you typically fight against.

The reason you don't want too much physical/spell penetration is that once you reduce the armor of your target to 0 you get no benefit from further penetration. This was the reason that Precise was the preferred trait in prior updates when trash had 0 (or near 0) resistances.

Some typical sources of penetration are:

• Sharpened = 5160 for x2 1H or 2H
• Light Armor = 4884 Spell with 5 pieces
• Destruction Staff = 10% of Target
• 2H Mace = 20% of Target
• Crusher Enchant = 1622
• Elemental Drain = 5088 Spell
• Puncture = 5280 Physical
• CP = up to 5088

For example, I get 10791 Spell Penetration with a Sharpened Destruction and some CP. In a trial situation with someone casting Elemental Drain and the tank using a Crusher Enchantment that's a total of 17501 Spell Penetration which reduces the target's resistance to almost 0. I wouldn't benefit much from putting more into spell penetration in a trial setting. In a group/solo setting, however, not everyone is using the Crusher Enchantment or Elemental Drain as much so I might benefit from a little more penetration.

Julianos

My advice for pvp dont stack and focus only 1 stat just get everything balanced. Sustain, weapon damage, penetration, armor and enough health and ofcourse full impenetrable if you dont wanna die in 3 sec.

idk

PS4_ZeColmeia wrote: »

Armor pen needs to be reduced or armor cap needs to be removed with easier options to raise armor values across the board.

This also may seem hypocritical given what I just said, but LA really needs higher pen. Pen&Crit are the damage methods for LA yet Pen is outclassed by one sharpened weapon.

My preference is to lower sharpened values and slightly raise LA's value. I also think LA needs to be slighly closer to MA in armor value. I think right now LA is 1/3 for HA, while MA is either 2/3 or 3/4 of HA. I think LA needs to the be the same difference between LA and MA as MA is HA. So if MA is 3/4 of HA, then LA would 9/16 of HA or roughly half.

Not a major buff, but would go a long way to helping alight magicka imbalance imho.

Unless things changes via update 12 spell pen is much easier to cap than physical pen.

From what over read from theorycrafters, in light armor and the alkosh debuff on the target precise becomes better than sharpened by an extreemly small fraction of a percentage. Not worth making the change since alkosh isn't always used and doesn't have 100% uptime.

Physical pen is harder to come by as it's not built into medium armor. Adding NMG to alkosh and there is still room for more. How much, idk.

It's nice that medium armor provides difrerent buffs to us than light. As a result there are sets that provide good armor debuffs for physical so in the end it's not much of a differnce.

RazielSR

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

It depends on what content you are playing and with who. Right I'm assuming most mobs (both trash and bosses) have 18.2k resistances:

• Solo = As much as you can get, or at least up to 18k.
• Casual/PUG Dungeon/Vet Dungeon = Perhaps 10-12k.
• Trials = No more than 10k (sometimes less).
• PVP = As much as you can get? Depends on the type of armor the people you typically fight against.

The reason you don't want too much physical/spell penetration is that once you reduce the armor of your target to 0 you get no benefit from further penetration. This was the reason that Precise was the preferred trait in prior updates when trash had 0 (or near 0) resistances.

Some typical sources of penetration are:

• Sharpened = 5160 for x2 1H or 2H
• Light Armor = 4884 Spell with 5 pieces
• Destruction Staff = 10% of Target
• 2H Mace = 20% of Target
• Crusher Enchant = 1622
• Elemental Drain = 5088 Spell
• Puncture = 5280 Physical
• CP = up to 5088

For example, I get 10791 Spell Penetration with a Sharpened Destruction and some CP. In a trial situation with someone casting Elemental Drain and the tank using a Crusher Enchantment that's a total of 17501 Spell Penetration which reduces the target's resistance to almost 0. I wouldn't benefit much from putting more into spell penetration in a trial setting. In a group/solo setting, however, not everyone is using the Crusher Enchantment or Elemental Drain as much so I might benefit from a little more penetration.

So you are saying that for pve dungeons having sharpened plus kragh is more than enough physical penetration? So this spriggan thorn set is a waste?

PS4_ZeColmeia

Other than bosses, if you sum up your pen + groups and it's over 18k it's a waste. That said, bosses and pvp need more in 1T so just depends on what you are fighting.

Own

RazielSR wrote: »

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

It depends on what content you are playing and with who. Right I'm assuming most mobs (both trash and bosses) have 18.2k resistances:

• Solo = As much as you can get, or at least up to 18k.
• Casual/PUG Dungeon/Vet Dungeon = Perhaps 10-12k.
• Trials = No more than 10k (sometimes less).
• PVP = As much as you can get? Depends on the type of armor the people you typically fight against.

The reason you don't want too much physical/spell penetration is that once you reduce the armor of your target to 0 you get no benefit from further penetration. This was the reason that Precise was the preferred trait in prior updates when trash had 0 (or near 0) resistances.

Some typical sources of penetration are:

• Sharpened = 5160 for x2 1H or 2H
• Light Armor = 4884 Spell with 5 pieces
• Destruction Staff = 10% of Target
• 2H Mace = 20% of Target
• Crusher Enchant = 1622
• Elemental Drain = 5088 Spell
• Puncture = 5280 Physical
• CP = up to 5088

For example, I get 10791 Spell Penetration with a Sharpened Destruction and some CP. In a trial situation with someone casting Elemental Drain and the tank using a Crusher Enchantment that's a total of 17501 Spell Penetration which reduces the target's resistance to almost 0. I wouldn't benefit much from putting more into spell penetration in a trial setting. In a group/solo setting, however, not everyone is using the Crusher Enchantment or Elemental Drain as much so I might benefit from a little more penetration.

So you are saying that for pve dungeons having sharpened plus kragh is more than enough physical penetration? So this spriggan thorn set is a waste?

This is my plan

RazielSR

l3alls wrote: »

RazielSR wrote: »

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

It depends on what content you are playing and with who. Right I'm assuming most mobs (both trash and bosses) have 18.2k resistances:

• Solo = As much as you can get, or at least up to 18k.
• Casual/PUG Dungeon/Vet Dungeon = Perhaps 10-12k.
• Trials = No more than 10k (sometimes less).
• PVP = As much as you can get? Depends on the type of armor the people you typically fight against.

The reason you don't want too much physical/spell penetration is that once you reduce the armor of your target to 0 you get no benefit from further penetration. This was the reason that Precise was the preferred trait in prior updates when trash had 0 (or near 0) resistances.

Some typical sources of penetration are:

• Sharpened = 5160 for x2 1H or 2H
• Light Armor = 4884 Spell with 5 pieces
• Destruction Staff = 10% of Target
• 2H Mace = 20% of Target
• Crusher Enchant = 1622
• Elemental Drain = 5088 Spell
• Puncture = 5280 Physical
• CP = up to 5088

For example, I get 10791 Spell Penetration with a Sharpened Destruction and some CP. In a trial situation with someone casting Elemental Drain and the tank using a Crusher Enchantment that's a total of 17501 Spell Penetration which reduces the target's resistance to almost 0. I wouldn't benefit much from putting more into spell penetration in a trial setting. In a group/solo setting, however, not everyone is using the Crusher Enchantment or Elemental Drain as much so I might benefit from a little more penetration.

So you are saying that for pve dungeons having sharpened plus kragh is more than enough physical penetration? So this spriggan thorn set is a waste?

This is my plan

Erm what? To let spriggan be a waste or use it?

mtwiggz

Just the tip.

Airyus

mtwiggz wrote: »

Just the tip.

Is that what she said?

Jsmalls

15k penetration is what you should be aiming for in PvP while never really exceeding 20k. Above 20k you're over penetrating most light armor builds, sightly over penetrating medium builds and have full effect for heavy armor users. But if you are hitting 20k you're putting a lot into the CP star, have the pen set and monster piece, sharpened trait, using a maul, etc which is overkill.

As someone said above me, hit a certain point then start spreading things. My opinion is right between 15k to 20k

Also pen is useless against shields.

But if you are after those heavy armor users stack til you're hearts content.

Valykc

jyates214b14_ESO wrote: »

15k penetration is what you should be aiming for in PvP while never really exceeding 20k. Above 20k you're over penetrating most light armor builds, sightly over penetrating medium builds and have full effect for heavy armor users. But if you are hitting 20k you're putting a lot into the CP star, have the pen set and monster piece, sharpened trait, using a maul, etc which is overkill.

As someone said above me, hit a certain point then start spreading things. My opinion is right between 15k to 20k

Also pen is useless against shields.

But if you are after those heavy armor users stack til you're hearts content.

Ok very good feedback! Thanks everyone!

shezof

PS4_ZeColmeia wrote: »

Armor pen needs to be reduced or armor cap needs to be removed with easier options to raise armor values across the board.

This also may seem hypocritical given what I just said, but LA really needs higher pen. Pen&Crit are the damage methods for LA yet Pen is outclassed by one sharpened weapon.

My preference is to lower sharpened values and slightly raise LA's value. I also think LA needs to be slighly closer to MA in armor value. I think right now LA is 1/3 for HA, while MA is either 2/3 or 3/4 of HA. I think LA needs to the be the same difference between LA and MA as MA is HA. So if MA is 3/4 of HA, then LA would 9/16 of HA or roughly half.

Not a major buff, but would go a long way to helping alight magicka imbalance imho.

this has nothing to do with OP's question.

Omgwtfbbq321

Also, I am pretty sure that damage shields don’t have resistances. So any time an enemy has one up, your penetration isn’t doing anything for you. Though this is less apparent in the LetsAllPlayStamina meta.

Could be wrong though.

WillhelmBlack

5 Black Rose and 2 medium is about 19-20k armour, so 19-20k.

Dracane

Reorx_Holybeard wrote: »

It depends on what content you are playing and with who. Right I'm assuming most mobs (both trash and bosses) have 18.2k resistances:

• Solo = As much as you can get, or at least up to 18k.
• Casual/PUG Dungeon/Vet Dungeon = Perhaps 10-12k.
• Trials = No more than 10k (sometimes less).
• PVP = As much as you can get? Depends on the type of armor the people you typically fight against.

The reason you don't want too much physical/spell penetration is that once you reduce the armor of your target to 0 you get no benefit from further penetration. This was the reason that Precise was the preferred trait in prior updates when trash had 0 (or near 0) resistances.

Some typical sources of penetration are:

• Sharpened = 5160 for x2 1H or 2H
• Light Armor = 4884 Spell with 5 pieces
• Destruction Staff = 10% of Target
• 2H Mace = 20% of Target
• Crusher Enchant = 1622
• Elemental Drain = 5088 Spell
• Puncture = 5280 Physical
• CP = up to 5088

For example, I get 10791 Spell Penetration with a Sharpened Destruction and some CP. In a trial situation with someone casting Elemental Drain and the tank using a Crusher Enchantment that's a total of 17501 Spell Penetration which reduces the target's resistance to almost 0. I wouldn't benefit much from putting more into spell penetration in a trial setting. In a group/solo setting, however, not everyone is using the Crusher Enchantment or Elemental Drain as much so I might benefit from a little more penetration.

Both, elemental drain and Spell erosion grant 5280 pen. It's all the same value
And I just tested on the pts, the glyph of crushing is not working sadly, it just does not add penetration
It works for armor pen, but not for spell pen.

Nidro

My Question is: Maul got 20% phys Penetration from Target - Destro Staffs 10% spell res

It takes away 10%/20% from the 18k~ Resistance in general? (before all other debuffs)

OR is it Like: 18000 - 5280 sharpened - 5280 puntucre/ele drain= 7440 left - 10/20% Destro/Maul = 6696 Penetration left.

I'm console player and i dont see **** in my stats Overall lol.

Would be cool if someone with know how could answer this !!

Thanks

Yours Nidro~~

Reorx_Holybeard

Nidro wrote: »

My Question is: Maul got 20% phys Penetration from Target - Destro Staffs 10% spell res

It takes away 10%/20% from the 18k~ Resistance in general? (before all other debuffs)

OR is it Like: 18000 - 5280 sharpened - 5280 puntucre/ele drain= 7440 left - 10/20% Destro/Maul = 6696 Penetration left.

I'm console player and i dont see **** in my stats Overall lol.

Would be cool if someone with know how could answer this !!

Thanks

Yours Nidro~~

Like a lot of things in ESO it gets "complicated" when you look at the details. This is all from @Asayre's TamrielFoundry thread if you want more info.

The Mitigation formula is:

Mitigation = ((Resist - Debuff) * PenetrationFactor - FlatPenetration) / (Level * 1000)

So the 2H Mace/Staff factors are 'PenetrationFactor' which is applied after any resistance debuffs are applied to the target. In your specific example it would be:

Resist = 18000
Debuff = 5280
2H Maul = 20%
Final Resist = (18000 - 5280) * (1 - 0.20) - 5280 = 4896

So in this case if you were able to have another 5k of flat penetration you would reduce the target's armor to 0.

Dracane

Nidro wrote: »

My Question is: Maul got 20% phys Penetration from Target - Destro Staffs 10% spell res

It takes away 10%/20% from the 18k~ Resistance in general? (before all other debuffs)

OR is it Like: 18000 - 5280 sharpened - 5280 puntucre/ele drain= 7440 left - 10/20% Destro/Maul = 6696 Penetration left.

I'm console player and i dont see **** in my stats Overall lol.

Would be cool if someone with know how could answer this !!

Thanks

Yours Nidro~~

Sadly, destruction staff penetration only works with destruction stuff abilities. So we can as well ignore this argument.

Nidro

Thanks for this awesome data.

But i have another question now.

what is meant with:
- Flat Penetration
- Penetration Factor (is the 20% lowered from Maul i guess)
- And Debuff in General.


What counts as what?!?

i guess sharpened is flat penetration?

alkosh / nmg, e.g is debuff?

Thanks

Nidro

And as what counts the CP Penetration, or the new Set Penetration?

Is it Flat Penetration as well?

Nidro

And the Crusher Glyph xD

MrTarkanian48

@Nidro

Debuffs= Major/Minor Fracture, Major/Minor Breach

Penetration Factor= 20% from Maul, 10% from Destro Staff etc.

Plat Penetration is everything else= Sharpened Weapon, Set Bonuses (Night Mothers Gaze, Alkosh, Sunderflame), Light Armor passive, CP, Crusher glyph etc.

Penetration is good as long as you do not reduce the target past zero. If the target hits zero armor, any further penetration is wasted, and you would be better served with more weapon/spell damage or crit at that point.

Also, penetration has no affect on shields, as they do not have resistances. So if you are heavily specced into penetration, and go up against a sorc spamming shields, you will have a harder time breaking the shields than a heavy weapon damage build.

Dagoth_Rac

Nidro wrote: »

Thanks for this awesome data.

But i have another question now.

what is meant with:
- Flat Penetration
- Penetration Factor (is the 20% lowered from Maul i guess)
- And Debuff in General.


What counts as what?!?

i guess sharpened is flat penetration?

alkosh / nmg, e.g is debuff?

Thanks

Flat Penetration = your own personal ability to pierce armor/spell resist. Sharpened weapons are best example of this, but Spriggans/Spinners set, Light Armor passive, and the 1 piece bonus from Kragh are other examples. These purely affect you. Only you will be able to hit enemy harder.

Armor/Spell Resistance Debuff = reduces armor/spell resist of enemy affected. Major/Minor Fracture debuffs, Might Mother Gaze debuffs, Alkosh synergy proc, Crusher enchant debuff, etc., are examples. These lower enemy armor/spell resist. This allows all players, not just yourself, to hit enemy harder.

Penetration factor = percentage penetration of armor. This comes from some weapon passives in 2H, DW, and Destro Staff. This pierces enemy armor/spell resist by a percentage. It reduces based on enemy's currently active armor/spell resist. This is a type of penetration and only affects player, not enemy. Only you will be able to hit enemy harder because of this. So an enemy with 18200 armor, debuffed by 2580 via Night Mothers Gaze proc, it will have 15620 effective armor. If you have a Sharpened (5160 penetration) 2H Maul (20% penetration) you end up with:

(18200 - 2580 debuff) * (1 -0.20 percentage penetration) - 5160 flat penetration =
15620 * 0.8 - 5160 = 7336

18200 armor = 18200 / 100000) * 2 = 36.4% mitigation
A hit for tooltip 10,000 = 10000 - (1 -.364) = 6363 damage

7336 armor = (7336 / 100000) * 2 = 14.672% mitigation
A hit for tooltip 10,000 = 10000 - (1 -.14672) = 8532 damage

8532 / 6363 = 34% increase in damage.

These are PvE numbers. Armor values and the mitigation they provide have slightly different formulas for players.

Master_Kas

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

5 Black Rose and 2 medium is about 19-20k armour, so 19-20k.

Lol correct since that's what most people are running atm.