Bow Ultimate Is Undodgeable

SanderBuraas

After grinding for a while to morph Rapid Fire, the new bow ultimate, into Toxic Barrage - it turns out that it is dodgeable.


(Source)

This ultimate is a channeled skill, similar to the old Soul Assault, and it can be interrupted. However, the damage from the ultimate can be evaded if you simply dodge roll. This is understandable for the second morph, Ballista, as you are able to fight while it is up, contrary to a channeled ability. Not to mention the delay before you actually deal damage with the ultimate.

Let's have a look at another channeled ability; Radiant Destruction.


(Source)

You can not dodge roll to avoid this skill. This skill is viable to use while the enemy is full health, as it deals increased damage once the target reaches half health and below. It does not matter that this skill is interruptable, as the caster can simply use it again - contrary to an ultimate ability. This skill outperforms every other channel ability, despite the fact that most of them are ultimates.

My primary weapon is a bow, both for pve and pvp. I looked forward to using a new ranged ultimate, but there is no reason to switch from Dawnbreaker since it is dodgeable. On a related note, check out my other thread regarding Dawnbreaker.

NACtron

Also reflectable. Learned that the hard way dueling yesterday against a DK. The ult is useless in PvP but we got plenty of other things to keep us satisfied. Magicka can have the range ults that are effective. I'm okay with that.

itehache

In pve though is cool af

SanderBuraas

itehache wrote: »

In pve though is cool af

It feels a bit clunky, especially with the delay before you deal damage.

itehache

Smepic wrote: »

itehache wrote: »

In pve though is cool af

It feels a bit clunky, especially with the delay before you deal damage.

Hm yeah that is true, and it is also easy to auto interrump yourself xD But i have been doing the pledges these 2 days and when you're in a normal dungeon just chilling it is a reaaally fun ability to use.

I still use the meteor for serious fights haha

Kammakazi

And Biting Jabs is a channel, you can roll through it too lol...

Strider_Roshin

What a load of crap!

akredon_ESO

well Radiant is cleanse able O_o

leepalmer95

NACtron wrote: »

Also reflectable. Learned that the hard way dueling yesterday against a DK. The ult is useless in PvP but we got plenty of other things to keep us satisfied. Magicka can have the range ults that are effective. I'm okay with that.

.....

So it's useless? ok.

leepalmer95

akredon_ESO wrote: »

well Radiant is cleanse able O_o

Radiant isn't a 175 ultimate that requires you to slot a certain weapon..

SublimeSparo

So the bow ult is equally as shite as the destro ult in pvp? Aw diddums poor stamina

dodgehopper_ESO

NACtron wrote: »

Also reflectable. Learned that the hard way dueling yesterday against a DK. The ult is useless in PvP but we got plenty of other things to keep us satisfied. Magicka can have the range ults that are effective. I'm okay with that.

Neither should work. Its an ultimate.

Lexxypwns

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

NACtron wrote: »

Also reflectable. Learned that the hard way dueling yesterday against a DK. The ult is useless in PvP but we got plenty of other things to keep us satisfied. Magicka can have the range ults that are effective. I'm okay with that.

Neither should work. Its an ultimate.

"Its an ultimate" doesn't mean there should be no counterplay, we already broke meteor because of this terrible logic, let's not break other stuff too

dodgehopper_ESO

Lexxypwns wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

NACtron wrote: »

Also reflectable. Learned that the hard way dueling yesterday against a DK. The ult is useless in PvP but we got plenty of other things to keep us satisfied. Magicka can have the range ults that are effective. I'm okay with that.

Neither should work. Its an ultimate.

"Its an ultimate" doesn't mean there should be no counterplay, we already broke meteor because of this terrible logic, let's not break other stuff too

I believe in counterplay, as many of my previous posts should make clear in the forums, what I'm saying is that the bow ultimate is a flurry of shots. You should not be able to for the price of one dodge completely skip the whole flurry. It doesn't make sense. This is why channels beat dodge, or at least I'm assuming that is why generally this was done.

ManDraKE

Good thing is dodgeable, that high damage (plus the caster can keep putting dmg on you with the turrent morph) without the chance of being dodgeable, it would be the most OP ultimate in the game. Just learn how to use it, you can cast the ultimate and CC your target, is a poweful ultimate, but it requires some skill to use.

Only magika based channels are un-doggeable, for example: radiant, soul strike, puncturing sweeps.
Stam base channels, like bitting jabs, are doggeable.

SodanTok

Anyone tried it versus shuffle? It would be laughtable if one shuffle proc dodges whole ulti. Would be interesting to hear reason why soul strike got this special treatment where there is zero counterplay and this ult is avoidable by cheapest, most common form of "damage avoidance" - dodge. Might as well not morph anything but the ballista, and still barely use it

ManDraKE wrote: »

Good thing is dodgeable, that high damage (plus the caster can keep putting dmg on you with the turrent morph) without the chance of being dodgeable, it would be the most OP ultimate in the game. Just learn how to use it, you can cast the ultimate and CC your target, is a poweful ultimate, but it requires some skill to use.

Only magika based channels are un-doggeable, for example: radiant, soul strike, puncturing sweeps.
Stam base channels, like bitting jabs, are doggeable.

Funny how you speak about ballista and CC. You arent even thinking about second morph or absence of CC for bow users. So again something is balanced because it would be OP on stam user not even using bow as main and bow main suffers

SanderBuraas

ManDraKE wrote: »

Good thing is dodgeable, that high damage (plus the caster can keep putting dmg on you with the turrent morph) without the chance of being dodgeable, it would be the most OP ultimate in the game. Just learn how to use it, you can cast the ultimate and CC your target, is a poweful ultimate, but it requires some skill to use.

Only magika based channels are un-doggeable, for example: radiant, soul strike, puncturing sweeps.
Stam base channels, like bitting jabs, are doggeable.

Allow me to quote a part of the original post.

Smepic wrote: »

This ultimate is a channeled skill, similar to the old Soul Assault, and it can be interrupted. However, the damage from the ultimate can be evaded if you simply dodge roll. This is understandable for the second morph, Ballista, as you are able to fight while it is up, contrary to a channeled ability. Not to mention the delay before you actually deal damage with the ultimate.

The old Soul Assault was not the most overpowered ultimate in the game - and it even slowed the target. Dawnbreaker is a low-cost instant ultimate that can not be roll dodged. The bow ultimate will not be the most powerful ultimate in the game if it is fixed (with the exception of Ballista).

Rapid Fire and Toxic Barrage can be roll dodged, reflected and probably blocked. As it stands, it is one of the worst.

Dredlord

I agree this morph of the bow ulti should not be dodgeable.

Tonnopesce

I don't know if is intended or not, but even total dark can reflect the ultimate, by the same logic i want to be able to reflect Radiant Oppression and soul assault...

DeadlyRecluse

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Anyone tried it versus shuffle? It would be laughtable if one shuffle proc dodges whole ulti.

Shuffle/Blur etc. do dodge it, but one proc doesn't negate the entire ulti, just a tick.

Dredlord

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Anyone tried it versus shuffle? It would be laughtable if one shuffle proc dodges whole ulti. Would be interesting to hear reason why soul strike got this special treatment where there is zero counterplay and this ult is avoidable by cheapest, most common form of "damage avoidance" - dodge. Might as well not morph anything but the ballista, and still barely use it

ManDraKE wrote: »

Good thing is dodgeable, that high damage (plus the caster can keep putting dmg on you with the turrent morph) without the chance of being dodgeable, it would be the most OP ultimate in the game. Just learn how to use it, you can cast the ultimate and CC your target, is a poweful ultimate, but it requires some skill to use.

Only magika based channels are un-doggeable, for example: radiant, soul strike, puncturing sweeps.
Stam base channels, like bitting jabs, are doggeable.

Funny how you speak about ballista and CC. You arent even thinking about second morph or absence of CC for bow users. So again something is balanced because it would be OP on stam user not even using bow as main and bow main suffers

What do you mean absence of cc on bow?

It has single target hard cc and aoe soft cc. It is an amazing control weapon in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing.

SodanTok

Dredlord wrote: »

What do you mean absence of cc on bow?

It has single target hard cc and aoe soft cc. It is an amazing control weapon in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing.

You mean short range disorient (canceled by any damage including dots) or nerfed-to-crap bombard (that does nothing to stop you from dodging bow ult). I guess you just hooked on my comment without context. I do use and do like draining shot, but it has no "synergy" with long range bow ult.

Dredlord

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Dredlord wrote: »

What do you mean absence of cc on bow?

It has single target hard cc and aoe soft cc. It is an amazing control weapon in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing.

You mean short range disorient (canceled by any damage including dots) or nerfed-to-crap bombard (that does nothing to stop you from dodging bow ult)

Yeah those ones, great cc options for the right situations.

Maybe i should mention my previous post where i agree that bow ulti morph should NOT be dodgeable?

SodanTok

Dredlord wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Dredlord wrote: »

What do you mean absence of cc on bow?

It has single target hard cc and aoe soft cc. It is an amazing control weapon in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing.

You mean short range disorient (canceled by any damage including dots) or nerfed-to-crap bombard (that does nothing to stop you from dodging bow ult)

Yeah those ones, great cc options for the right situations.

Maybe i should mention my previous post where i agree that bow ulti morph should NOT be dodgeable?

I dont read names when i read comments, so my bad With bombard being useless on snared targets (almost anyone in pvp these days), magnum/draining shot being short range and unreliable and dodgeable channeled bow ult I feel like bow skills arent allowed to make sense...

ManDraKE

Smepic wrote: »

The old Soul Assault was not the most overpowered ultimate in the game - and it even slowed the target. Dawnbreaker is a low-cost instant ultimate that can not be roll dodged. The bow ultimate will not be the most powerful ultimate in the game if it is fixed (with the exception of Ballista).

Rapid Fire and Toxic Barrage can be roll dodged, reflected and probably blocked. As it stands, it is one of the worst.

What they did with soul assult is absurd, and goes against all the well established mechanics of the game, don't get me started with that one lol.
Dawnbreaker is not a channel with 28mts range, is an AoE Cone with short range. Why is undoggeable? no idea, most likely is a leftover effect from when it was a magic damage skill. The other ultimate that is similar is the DK Leap, that is doggeable (not sure if the dmg is dogeable, but you can dodge out of the AoE effect)

The bow ultimate is and should be doggeable, needs to be consistent with the rest of the mechanics in the game, we don't need another soul assault being the exception to the rule. Right now is not useful? not sure, you can always switch bar and stun the target, maybe it needs some adjust to make those combos more reliable, but it should remain doggeable.

SodanTok

ManDraKE wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

The old Soul Assault was not the most overpowered ultimate in the game - and it even slowed the target. Dawnbreaker is a low-cost instant ultimate that can not be roll dodged. The bow ultimate will not be the most powerful ultimate in the game if it is fixed (with the exception of Ballista).

Rapid Fire and Toxic Barrage can be roll dodged, reflected and probably blocked. As it stands, it is one of the worst.

What they did with soul assult is absurd, and goes against all the well established mechanics of the game, don't get me started with that one lol.
Dawnbreaker is not a channel with 28mts range, is an AoE Cone with short range. Why is undoggeable? no idea, most likely is a leftover effect from when it was a magic damage skill. The other ultimate that is similar is the DK Leap, that is doggeable (not sure if the dmg is dogeable, but you can dodge out of the AoE effect)

The bow ultimate is and should be doggeable, needs to be consistent with the rest of the mechanics in the game, we don't need another soul assault being the exception to the rule. Right now is not useful? not sure, you can always switch bar and stun the target, maybe it needs some adjust to make those combos more reliable, but it should remain doggeable.

Please, I need your reason for why it should be dodgeable and when you are at it, why would you ever use 4sec channel ulti if it is dodgeable.

Takes-No-Prisoner

ManDraKE wrote: »

Good thing is dodgeable, that high damage (plus the caster can keep putting dmg on you with the turrent morph) without the chance of being dodgeable, it would be the most OP ultimate in the game. Just learn how to use it, you can cast the ultimate and CC your target, is a poweful ultimate, but it requires some skill to use.

^^^ This

This also means I would need use this ult smartly. If I use it like an idiot I'll get punished. However if I can Fear>Bow Ult my target while hes out of stamina its GGs. The damage on it is scary.

SodanTok

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

Good thing is dodgeable, that high damage (plus the caster can keep putting dmg on you with the turrent morph) without the chance of being dodgeable, it would be the most OP ultimate in the game. Just learn how to use it, you can cast the ultimate and CC your target, is a poweful ultimate, but it requires some skill to use.

^^^ This

This also means I would need use this ult smartly. If I use it like an idiot I'll get punished. However if I can Fear>Bow Ult my target while hes out of stamina its GGs. The damage on it is scary.

So if you jump at fear range and use ranged bow ult on someone who is cced and without stamina you will kill them. Here I thought any DD in pvp can kill someone when they have 4 sec of free time. That scaary damage is ~same DPS as using lethal arrow without even light attack weaving or ench procing.

Cathexis

I dont care if it can be dodged or not, reflected or not, whatever. I just think there should be consistency across ults and mechanics in terms of what you can do to counter them.... So for example, its a channel not a projectile, so why is it reflectable. At the very least it should explicitly say in the tooltip "this channel is reflectable." But really, If you want to make exceptions to rules, thats what having morphs are for.

Takes-No-Prisoner

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

Good thing is dodgeable, that high damage (plus the caster can keep putting dmg on you with the turrent morph) without the chance of being dodgeable, it would be the most OP ultimate in the game. Just learn how to use it, you can cast the ultimate and CC your target, is a poweful ultimate, but it requires some skill to use.

^^^ This

This also means I would need use this ult smartly. If I use it like an idiot I'll get punished. However if I can Fear>Bow Ult my target while hes out of stamina its GGs. The damage on it is scary.

So if you jump at fear range and use ranged bow ult on someone who is cced and without stamina you will kill them. Here I thought any DD in pvp can kill someone when they have 4 sec of free time. That scaary damage is ~same DPS as using lethal arrow without even light attack weaving or ench procing.

Of course the DPS on Lethal Arrow/LA weave is strong, but if we're going to theorycraft this situation-- the target you're firing at is fully mobile and able to react to that. Because you're playing ranged cat n' mouse. The guy running the Bow Ult is going to have to have set ups to get the target in position where he can unload his DPS when its stacked and have it all hit. That's how the Ult is going to have to work in PvP at least. It's good its dodge able it keeps it from being mindlessly used to mow down a opponent for some free AP. I look forward to figuring out tricks for this, because the Ult has some good range on it.

SodanTok

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

Good thing is dodgeable, that high damage (plus the caster can keep putting dmg on you with the turrent morph) without the chance of being dodgeable, it would be the most OP ultimate in the game. Just learn how to use it, you can cast the ultimate and CC your target, is a poweful ultimate, but it requires some skill to use.

^^^ This

This also means I would need use this ult smartly. If I use it like an idiot I'll get punished. However if I can Fear>Bow Ult my target while hes out of stamina its GGs. The damage on it is scary.

So if you jump at fear range and use ranged bow ult on someone who is cced and without stamina you will kill them. Here I thought any DD in pvp can kill someone when they have 4 sec of free time. That scaary damage is ~same DPS as using lethal arrow without even light attack weaving or ench procing.

Of course the DPS on Lethal Arrow/LA weave is strong, but if we're going to theorycraft this situation-- the target you're firing at is fully mobile and able to react to that. Because you're playing ranged cat n' mouse. The guy running the Bow Ult is going to have to have set ups to get the target in position where he can unload his DPS when its stacked and have it all hit. That's how the Ult is going to have to work in PvP at least. It's good its dodge able it keeps it from being mindlessly used to mow down a opponent for some free AP. I look forward to figuring out tricks for this, because the Ult has some good range on it.

But why would you use ult with less burst damage and same or lower DPS than what your skills offer you already. Nobody is ever going to willingly suffer half the channel. In PVP you want to kill people and you will use best weapons possible for it. There is no situation where dodgeable channeled ult is better than sending few snipes with LA/poison injection, etc.

I bet I could slot current soul strike and have better results with it, even though I have 100 points in mighty, run marksman (+8% to bow dmg) and morag tong (+10% to poison dmg).

Also you speak like magicka user, but your sig says you play stamblade. Not sure about you, but most stamblades are using dodges as often as they are breathing.