The recent changes to VMA daggers. My thoughts.

FeaR Turbo

Let me start off by saying I love this game and APPERICATE all the new content. And the hard work that the people behind this game.

I wanted to address the new change to VMA daggers/Axes.

I understand that they were best in slot. Really boosted the damage of stamina through dot builds. The idea and execution was very well done. Hard to get weapons that really rewarded with damage. A right of passage if you will.

With that being said I notice a lot of changes come from a PVP stand point as this effects players the most. Which makes sense. Players vs players.

The mobs in a Trial can't report us for being OP (:

Anyway I am unaware of any VMA dot builds turning heat in pvp. Although I am not a pvp expert. I just haven't heard of it.


So the change can only be determined cause of the lack of damage from magicka classes on forms compared to stamina and the reason is many things.  Such as the change to many skills to focus on scaling better for stamina through what type of damage they do. Also going off physical penetration.

And the VMA daggers improving those skills.


But changing the damage for those weapons doesn't render magicka more damage or even bring them closers. Stamina builds will still be really good even the best.

The different is stamina gets more pen from support sets. Along with more WD scaling which is 100 WD =1050 stamina roughly.
Also 8% reduce costs VO. Makes sustain easier and let's you dps the heck out of stuff.

Next patch shooting star is probably still the best ult.

Those are really strong points but the biggest of them all which I feel is over looked is that stamina can get 10% crit from having daggers. While magicka gets heavy attack bonus ?

One of stamina's best Dot is also it's source of minor force. 12% CHD which pairs nicely with daggers.

And my last point. The first skill for destruction staff can't even compare to rending slashes or poison injection... which is 2 skills to 1 for Magicka.
Magicka has 1 weapon skill line.

Is poison injection game breaking for pvp? I haven't heard that and some builds don't even use it in pvp.

So why not make the first skill for destruction. Staff like injection ?

Also make fire Rune do more damage over time and less damage up front. And grant minor force for Magicka builds.


I think these are healthy changes and shouldn't be game breaking for pvp. Now the different in support sets and armor passive are an issue but those can be looked at or not changed at a later date. The skills and access to these skills talked about earlier is almost a must in my opinion.


I just wanted to give my 2 cents on the recent changes and overview.
I see the idea for the change to the VMA daggers but I feel as if they just take away from groups overall dps instead of group balance.

Like I said at the start. I love this game. I am not mad. I just wanted to talk about something I hope the rest of the comments are civil and enlightening.

Love you guys. 

FeaR Turbo.

FeaR Turbo

Sorry if this is sloppy I am on my phone at work

Joy_Division

IMHO:

I occasionally see people use these in PvP, but they aren't the source of imbalance because:

• 2H offers everything a PvPers wants in a nice package: mobility, burst, heals, execute. It's the perfect weapon.
• It's a lot of micromanagement to put an effective vMA DoT rotation on a player.
• Stam is strong because of favorable gear procs, it can combine high healing and high damage in the same package, is not reliant on bad weapons for defense (read: resto staff), has excellent burst in a Meta where pretty much the only way you can kill people is through burst.

Some of your observations I agree with in that nerfing these weapons wont solve PvE issues and more profitable solutions ultimately lie in major reform of terrible magicka weapons and abilities.

The one thing I don't think people who dislike the vMA dagger nerf consider is not the gap between stam and magicka, but the gap between stam players who use these weapons and those who do not. Sure, if you buff magicka, the magicka players stop complaining, but if these weapons are so good, then all stam have to use them which kills any sense of diversity.

I do think the logic of them being BiS makes sense, the reward as you say, but if the magnitude in which they are BiS is too great, then that closes off all alternatives which is not healthy.

Bandit1215

I run a dual wield build with double vMA axes because it is different and interesting. It may not be the perfect build or the "meta", but I love it because I created it and it is something new for me. I can run it pretty well in PvP, but nowhere near to the effectiveness of a 2H and bow build. I really dislike this because it is making an already under-performing and minority build even weaker and even more in the minority of usage in PvP.

FeaR Turbo

Joy_Division wrote: »

IMHO:

I occasionally see people use these in PvP, but they aren't the source of imbalance because:

• 2H offers everything a PvPers wants in a nice package: mobility, burst, heals, execute. It's the perfect weapon.
• It's a lot of micromanagement to put an effective vMA DoT rotation on a player.
• Stam is strong because of favorable gear procs, it can combine high healing and high damage in the same package, is not reliant on bad weapons for defense (read: resto staff), has excellent burst in a Meta where pretty much the only way you can kill people is through burst.

Some of your observations I agree with in that nerfing these weapons wont solve PvE issues and more profitable solutions ultimately lie in major reform of terrible magicka weapons and abilities.

The one thing I don't think people who dislike the vMA dagger nerf consider is not the gap between stam and magicka, but the gap between stam players who use these weapons and those who do not. Sure, if you buff magicka, the magicka players stop complaining, but if these weapons are so good, then all stam have to use them which kills any sense of diversity.

I do think the logic of them being BiS makes sense, the reward as you say, but if the magnitude in which they are BiS is too great, then that closes off all alternatives which is not healthy.

I think there is a misconception between VMA daggers and non. Gear plays a big part in it along with rotation. Buffs etc. 2-6k dps boost depending on those factors. I think it's reasonable.

I agree with everything else.

hedna123b14_ESO

FeaR Turbo wrote: »

Let me start off by saying I love this game and APPERICATE all the new content. And the hard work that the people behind this game.

I wanted to address the new change to VMA daggers/Axes.

I understand that they were best in slot. Really boosted the damage of stamina through dot builds. The idea and execution was very well done. Hard to get weapons that really rewarded with damage. A right of passage if you will.

With that being said I notice a lot of changes come from a PVP stand point as this effects players the most. Which makes sense. Players vs players.

The mobs in a Trial can't report us for being OP (:

Anyway I am unaware of any VMA dot builds turning heat in pvp. Although I am not a pvp expert. I just haven't heard of it.


So the change can only be determined cause of the lack of damage from magicka classes on forms compared to stamina and the reason is many things.  Such as the change to many skills to focus on scaling better for stamina through what type of damage they do. Also going off physical penetration.

And the VMA daggers improving those skills.


But changing the damage for those weapons doesn't render magicka more damage or even bring them closers. Stamina builds will still be really good even the best.

The different is stamina gets more pen from support sets. Along with more WD scaling which is 100 WD =1050 stamina roughly.
Also 8% reduce costs VO. Makes sustain easier and let's you dps the heck out of stuff.

Next patch shooting star is probably still the best ult.

Those are really strong points but the biggest of them all which I feel is over looked is that stamina can get 10% crit from having daggers. While magicka gets heavy attack bonus ?

One of stamina's best Dot is also it's source of minor force. 12% CHD which pairs nicely with daggers.

And my last point. The first skill for destruction staff can't even compare to rending slashes or poison injection... which is 2 skills to 1 for Magicka.
Magicka has 1 weapon skill line.

Is poison injection game breaking for pvp? I haven't heard that and some builds don't even use it in pvp.

So why not make the first skill for destruction. Staff like injection ?

Also make fire Rune do more damage over time and less damage up front. And grant minor force for Magicka builds.


I think these are healthy changes and shouldn't be game breaking for pvp. Now the different in support sets and armor passive are an issue but those can be looked at or not changed at a later date. The skills and access to these skills talked about earlier is almost a must in my opinion.


I just wanted to give my 2 cents on the recent changes and overview.
I see the idea for the change to the VMA daggers but I feel as if they just take away from groups overall dps instead of group balance.

Like I said at the start. I love this game. I am not mad. I just wanted to talk about something I hope the rest of the comments are civil and enlightening.

Love you guys. 

FeaR Turbo.

I think the change was primarily made to:
1. Bring overall stam damage down
2. Bring DK's more in line with the other classes, since DK's suffer the biggest damage reduction from this change.

FeaR Turbo

1) yeah it did just that,
2) every class uses them.

hedna123b14_ESO

FeaR Turbo wrote: »

1) yeah it did just that,
2) every class uses them.

Correct but DK's benefit from them the most because they have 2 extra DoT's that can be empowered. For example My DK's damage will go down by roughly 11% versus 4.8 on my stamplar because my stamplar's empowered DoT's account for a much smaller percentage of my overall damage than my DK.

Izaki

I wholeheartedly agree with you.

BurritoESO

The only reason why stamina is so op right now is because black rose allows people to be tanky, build full damage because you get sustain from constitution, and have really high damage and heals because you can completely negate building for sustain... just nerf black rose and PvP balance between stam and magicka will be fine

FeaR Turbo

BurritoESO wrote: »

The only reason why stamina is so op right now is because black rose allows people to be tanky, build full damage because you get sustain from constitution, and have really high damage and heals because you can completely negate building for sustain... just nerf black rose and PvP balance between stam and magicka will be fine

Talking pve but i agree (;
I dislike the tanky meta thing going on. ^_^

FeaR Turbo

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

FeaR Turbo wrote: »

1) yeah it did just that,
2) every class uses them.

Correct but DK's benefit from them the most because they have 2 extra DoT's that can be empowered. For example My DK's damage will go down by roughly 11% versus 4.8 on my stamplar because my stamplar's empowered DoT's account for a much smaller percentage of my overall damage than my DK.

Right but stamplar as a class is the main problem. IMO. lack of dots, PoL not being able to crit, (like relentless focus for nb)
lack of burning light proxing only from jabs... no class dot in that tree for stamina. Lack of unique ult for stamina for dps. ( Standard- Soul harvest- Negate) are all unique that deal something non stamina focused but are very useful.

if they changed the magicka return morph of shards to a stamina dot of some kind, and made burning light 10% chance to prox on everything else and pol crit. this would change pve stamplar and gave them crescent sweep ult something sick like pen on target for yourself or damage bonus for aoe skills something cool.

obv values should reflect balance just giving ideas

hedna123b14_ESO

FeaR Turbo wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

FeaR Turbo wrote: »

1) yeah it did just that,
2) every class uses them.

Correct but DK's benefit from them the most because they have 2 extra DoT's that can be empowered. For example My DK's damage will go down by roughly 11% versus 4.8 on my stamplar because my stamplar's empowered DoT's account for a much smaller percentage of my overall damage than my DK.

Right but stamplar as a class is the main problem. IMO. lack of dots, PoL not being able to crit, (like relentless focus for nb)
lack of burning light proxing only from jabs... no class dot in that tree for stamina. Lack of unique ult for stamina for dps. ( Standard- Soul harvest- Negate) are all unique that deal something non stamina focused but are very useful.

if they changed the magicka return morph of shards to a stamina dot of some kind, and made burning light 10% chance to prox on everything else and pol crit. this would change pve stamplar and gave them crescant sweep ult something sick like pen on target for yoruself or damgae bonus for aoe skills something cool.

Couldnt agree more...I definitely dont touch DK parses with mine but where ourr DK's pull 50k I pull 44...and Im still learning the class...i think with the next patch ill be able to hit 40-42 with the DK's pulling 44-46. The debuff from PoL benefits the whole raid plus someone has to run NM:)

FeaR Turbo

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

FeaR Turbo wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

FeaR Turbo wrote: »

1) yeah it did just that,
2) every class uses them.

Correct but DK's benefit from them the most because they have 2 extra DoT's that can be empowered. For example My DK's damage will go down by roughly 11% versus 4.8 on my stamplar because my stamplar's empowered DoT's account for a much smaller percentage of my overall damage than my DK.

Right but stamplar as a class is the main problem. IMO. lack of dots, PoL not being able to crit, (like relentless focus for nb)
lack of burning light proxing only from jabs... no class dot in that tree for stamina. Lack of unique ult for stamina for dps. ( Standard- Soul harvest- Negate) are all unique that deal something non stamina focused but are very useful.

if they changed the magicka return morph of shards to a stamina dot of some kind, and made burning light 10% chance to prox on everything else and pol crit. this would change pve stamplar and gave them crescant sweep ult something sick like pen on target for yoruself or damgae bonus for aoe skills something cool.

Couldnt agree more...I definitely dont touch DK parses with mine but where ourr DK's pull 50k I pull 44...and Im still learning the class...i think with the next patch ill be able to hit 40-42 with the DK's pulling 44-46. The debuff from PoL benefits the whole raid plus someone has to run NM:)

yeah its nice debuff but man just think if it could crit!!!! and prox burning light from seomthing otther than jabs. i love stamplar.

hedna123b14_ESO

FeaR Turbo wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

FeaR Turbo wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

FeaR Turbo wrote: »

1) yeah it did just that,
2) every class uses them.

Correct but DK's benefit from them the most because they have 2 extra DoT's that can be empowered. For example My DK's damage will go down by roughly 11% versus 4.8 on my stamplar because my stamplar's empowered DoT's account for a much smaller percentage of my overall damage than my DK.

Right but stamplar as a class is the main problem. IMO. lack of dots, PoL not being able to crit, (like relentless focus for nb)
lack of burning light proxing only from jabs... no class dot in that tree for stamina. Lack of unique ult for stamina for dps. ( Standard- Soul harvest- Negate) are all unique that deal something non stamina focused but are very useful.

if they changed the magicka return morph of shards to a stamina dot of some kind, and made burning light 10% chance to prox on everything else and pol crit. this would change pve stamplar and gave them crescant sweep ult something sick like pen on target for yoruself or damgae bonus for aoe skills something cool.

Couldnt agree more...I definitely dont touch DK parses with mine but where ourr DK's pull 50k I pull 44...and Im still learning the class...i think with the next patch ill be able to hit 40-42 with the DK's pulling 44-46. The debuff from PoL benefits the whole raid plus someone has to run NM:)

yeah its nice debuff but man just think if it could crit!!!! and prox burning light from seomthing otther than jabs. i love stamplar.

Yes please...lets sneak that into the next CoR meeting

Artis

I think one more problem is that magicka weapons don't really synergize with class skills. Just look at the destruction staff passives. Who wants to use a fully charged heavy attack? And it'll give you crit for destro spells only - why? Not everyone spams those abilities. Besides, rotations with fully charged attacks feel a bit awkward imo.

FeaR Turbo

Artis wrote: »

I think one more problem is that magicka weapons don't really synergize with class skills. Just look at the destruction staff passives. Who wants to use a fully charged heavy attack? And it'll give you crit for destro spells only - why? Not everyone spams those abilities. Besides, rotations with fully charged attacks feel a bit awkward imo.

AGREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED.