Magicka Builds: I don't see the value in the Black Rose set..

Crown

I've only been playing again for a few weeks, and even then not regularly (2-3 nights / week for a couple hours). It seems as though the number of people using this set is enormous and it has become the defacto standard these days for both stamina and magicka builds. For stamina builds it can make sense to increase survivability and as most are up close and personal in their fighting style, the procs should be regular. For magicka builds, I just don't see the value outside some very niche tanky disruptor builds (for which there should only be one per group regardless).

For those who don't recall, the bonuses from the Black Rose set are as follows:
(2 items) Adds 1064 Max Health
(3 items) Adds 967 Max Stamina
(4 items) Adds 967 Max Stamina
(5 items) Increases the Magicka and Stamina restoration benefit from the Constitution Passive by 50% and increases Weapon and Spell Damage by 154

While wearing 5 heavy, the passives you receive are armour, magic resist, health, health regen, and block cost reduction - all survivability related. The Constitution passive also returns 930 Magicka and Stamina (based on 5 heavy) once every 4 seconds when hit. Being as you'll probably not get the proc exactly every 4 seconds just as the cool down wears off in combat, using 5 seconds for debate purposes makes more sense. That works out to 186 regen per second, or 372 regen every two seconds (how often regen ticks proc).

One can thus look at the Black Rose set as giving you an additional regen value of 186 Magicka and 186 Stamina ONLY while you are actively fighting and getting hit.

Alternatively, if we look at the Amberplasm set obtainable from Ruins of Mazzatun, the bonuses are as follows:
(2 items) Adds 967 Max Magicka
(3 items) Adds 688 Spell Critical
(4 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(5 items) Adds 300 Stamina Recovery (actually 360 if you use 5 light armour)
(5 items) Adds 300 Magicka Recovery (actually 360 if you use 5 light armour)

360 regen all the time, vs 372 regen only while being hit in combat. The better bonus seems rather obvious.

In using this set, you can also get the passives from light armour: Magicka cost reduction, Magicka Regeneration, Spell Resistance, Spell Critical Strike chance, and Spell Penetration. In all except some niche builds, much more effective than the heavy armour passives.

This set is available with jewellery, so you can use a necklace, 2 rings, and 2 pieces of armour (I'm not certain if it comes in weapons) - so you can still wear 5 heavy armour if you want the passives for survivability.

Pairing 5 Amberplasm with 5 Kagrenac's Hope (max magicka, magicka recovery, max health, 225 spell damage, and fast rez speed) in light or heavy (if you're in need of those passive - which skilled movement / play shouldn't require) seems like a much better option than for any magicka build to use Black Rose. The last item if in an 11-piece build would probably be a Molag Kena head or shoulders (for spell damage), or if in a 12-piece build then a monster set that makes sense for whatever you're doing (Valkyn, Blood Spawn, Molag Kena, or other).

Am I missing something critical in my thinking?

EDIT / UPDATE: There are some niche builds such as a defile tank (5 x Fasala + 5 x Black Rose + 2 x BloodSpawn or Malubeth) likely best run by a Magicka DK that this set is very well suited for. I still don't believe it's appropriate for the grand majority of Magicka builds who are using it.

EDIT/ UPDATE 2: @Lexxypwns @caeliusstarbreaker (and others) have given some good thoughts and suggestions, that have prompted me to want to try this set to get a feel for it. The math behind the heavy armour passives doesn't endear me to the set, though there is a lot of subjectivity in value that will be clarified once I test it out.

caeliusstarbreaker

Black rose is a back door to stam regen while blocking.

Edit: higher base stam with which to do so, and if you want the ability to run max health mag blue food to partly off set the lack of stam from tri food stats.

Wollust

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Black rose is a back door to stam regen while blocking.

Edit: higher base stam with which to do so, and if you want the ability to run max health mag blue food to partly off set the lack of stam from tri food stats.

This is it

Crown

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Black rose is a back door to stam regen while blocking.

Edit: higher base stam with which to do so, and if you want the ability to run max health mag blue food to partly off set the lack of stam from tri food stats.

That's still less than one block's worth of stamina (unless they've changed block consumption values since TG)..?

Juhasow

Now compare ways to obtain Black Rose and amberplasm and You'll know why people runs BR. 25k Tel vars and You have impen pieces when if You want to wear amberplasm and still be heavy armor user You need to farm purple jewelery or weapons with proper trait from RoM vet and You'll not get imen armor pieces. 10 minutes against 10 hours if You're lucky

KisoValley

Juhasow wrote: »

Now compare ways to obtain Black Rose and amberplasm and You'll know why people runs BR. 25k Tel vars and You have impen pieces when if You want to wear amberplasm and still be heavy armor user You need to farm purple jewelery or weapons with proper trait from RoM vet and You'll not get imen armor pieces. 10 minutes against 10 hours if You're lucky

I farmed full amberplasm (correct traits) + rings in about 3 runs. Friend of mine farmed it in 2. Others I know of have farmed it in less than 5. It's very easy. RoM is easy, even on vet.

Crown

@Juhasow The time needed to get the set is a good point, but that also brings up an issue I've raised many times, that building tanky in PvP increases your survivability (mostly) for a few seconds. It very rarely makes a difference between winning and losing. The percentage mitigation (see here: http://goo.gl/Zng18G) is not significant enough for most *good* players to give up the performance oriented passives for a slight increase in survivability.

Armitas

I can't speak for all magicka using it but for me on my mDK it means i can run a defile via reverberating bash, or run a breach for penetration while using S/B. The otherpart is that it meshes with blocking which is also important on my mDK because it gives stamina when recovery will not.

Crown

KisoValley wrote: »

I farmed full amberplasm (correct traits) + rings in about 3 runs. Friend of mine farmed it in 2. Others I know of have farmed it in less than 5. It's very easy. RoM is easy, even on vet.

@KisoValley I'm not familiar with the new dungeon BoP + Trading mechanism. Are you able to trade any item within group? Say, if I got 3 friends to run the dungeon with me with the purpose of getting a set to test with, are they able to trade me all the BoP items or only specific ones?

Crown

Armitas wrote: »

I can't speak for all magicka using it but for me on my mDK it means i can run a defile via reverberating bash, or run a breach for penetration while using S/B. The otherpart is that it meshes with blocking which is also important on my mDK because it gives stamina when recovery will not.

@caeliusstarbreaker and @Armitas Good point on the blocking, though that's really a niche build where you want one defile tank (Fasala + Black Rose + a 2-set) in group - not 3/4 of the raid wearing it. A sap-tank (which I think is a complete waste of a player these days) is also a valid use of the set to augment stamina in addition to what you get from Siphoning.

caeliusstarbreaker

Crown wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Black rose is a back door to stam regen while blocking.

Edit: higher base stam with which to do so, and if you want the ability to run max health mag blue food to partly off set the lack of stam from tri food stats.

That's still less than one block's worth of stamina (unless they've changed block consumption values since TG)..?

I believe block was reworked with db patch?

Even still, just half a refund on block, along with return on Magicka, the other heavy passives, in a high burst meta where dropping your block can kill you, has a higher "purpose yield."

If you aren't blocking, then the line is skewed between all the time regen vs being attacked regen.

Lexxypwns

Black Rose plus heavy armor passives add a significant amount of max health, allowing you to survive burst combos from most players. It opens the door to using blue foods, to push magika a bit higher(balancing the loss of magika based set boni) while simultaneously eliminating the strain on managing stamina on a magika build. The sustain you get allows you to build 100% damage on top of a set that already offers you SOME damage. Its ridiculously easy to acquire and it gives you all the resource sustain you need while providing some damage and eliminating the need for purple foods, while Black Rose may not strictly be BiS, for solo/small scale knowing you don't have to worry with stamina/magika sustain while still being able to reach acceptable damage numbers makes it a very solid set.

When you can block that incoming frag, meteor, whatever and not have it wreck your stamina on a mag build then you'll understand why a set that allows blocking as a defensive tool again while providing you some damage and improved mitigation/heals/health is good. I don't think its BiS for all builds, but its quite effective on a number of magika based builds. The reality is, with damage glyphs and wrath you can get around 3700 spell damage on a heavy armor build in combat, allowing you to have all the damage you need while maintaining stamina sustain even if you decide to block.

I think you'll find that running a 5 light armor build requires heavy reliance on dampen magika, whereas, running blackrose eliminates some of the need.

caeliusstarbreaker

Crown wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

I can't speak for all magicka using it but for me on my mDK it means i can run a defile via reverberating bash, or run a breach for penetration while using S/B. The otherpart is that it meshes with blocking which is also important on my mDK because it gives stamina when recovery will not.

@caeliusstarbreaker and @Armitas Good point on the blocking, though that's really a niche build where you want one defile tank (Fasala + Black Rose + a 2-set) in group - not 3/4 of the raid wearing it. A sap-tank (which I think is a complete waste of a player these days) is also a valid use of the set to augment stamina in addition to what you get from Siphoning.

It just makes you tankier and gives resources, when their is caltrops and a bunch of dmg flying around it organically increases sustain/survivability. Burst is pretty easy to come by, the most direct counter is tankier group members, especially since negates can flatline a group real quick.

In a more structured raid, yes you would want people more suitable to different roles. However for builds that make use of block, BR is gonna allow them to do that more. For anything not raid oriented, BR by virtue of its 5 piece could be argued as better bang for you buck.

KisoValley

Crown wrote: »

KisoValley wrote: »

I farmed full amberplasm (correct traits) + rings in about 3 runs. Friend of mine farmed it in 2. Others I know of have farmed it in less than 5. It's very easy. RoM is easy, even on vet.

@KisoValley I'm not familiar with the new dungeon BoP + Trading mechanism. Are you able to trade any item within group? Say, if I got 3 friends to run the dungeon with me with the purpose of getting a set to test with, are they able to trade me all the BoP items or only specific ones?

All of them. In trials next patch BoP sets like Sun/Necro can't be traded, but I think they're keeping dungeons the same (not 100% sure on this).

Crown

@Lexxypwns Good point on enabling a balance to change food/drink. Keeping in mind that I come from a TG at launch magicka NB perspective, it still doesn't feel right. I believe I'm going to have to farm some Telvar and get myself a set to test with. Gold upgrade mats (to get the 40% purple to 50% gold) are insanely expensive these days!

Crown

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

In a more structured raid, yes you would want people more suitable to different roles. However for builds that make use of block, BR is gonna allow them to do that more. For anything not raid oriented, BR by virtue of its 5 piece could be argued as better bang for you buck.

@caeliusstarbreaker That's a good point as well. I tend to have a bias towards and think in terms of synergy within a group of 8-12, or solo magicka NB builds. That's why I made this thread.. Thanks for the input!

Lexxypwns

Crown wrote: »

@Lexxypwns Good point on enabling a balance to change food/drink. Keeping in mind that I come from a TG at launch magicka NB perspective, it still doesn't feel right. I believe I'm going to have to farm some Telvar and get myself a set to test with. Gold upgrade mats (to get the 40% purple to 50% gold) are insanely expensive these days!

Its not for everyone and not everyone uses it correctly, however, when you build to the strengths of a heavy armor based build and then stack damage from your remaining 5-6 set pieces you can get some very solid results, allowing enough damage to burst players while mitigating some of the punishing burst you receive in return.

On a mageblade its definitely not BiS, but in group play it vastly increases your survivability, the added healing passives combined with the extra health allow HoTs to have a greater role in keeping you alive, while allowing you to block quite a lot and still output decent damage, I believe I was sitting at 3800 spell damage with pvp raid buffs on a 1h/s heavy armor build.

caeliusstarbreaker

Crown wrote: »

@Lexxypwns Good point on enabling a balance to change food/drink. Keeping in mind that I come from a TG at launch magicka NB perspective, it still doesn't feel right. I believe I'm going to have to farm some Telvar and get myself a set to test with. Gold upgrade mats (to get the 40% purple to 50% gold) are insanely expensive these days!

@Crown you also have siphoning attacks which in turn gives you leeway to branch out to other sets, if you plan to be blocking, id advocate away from amber plasm, your stam loss can more readily be mitigates with a potion.

Crown

@Lexxypwns @caeliusstarbreaker et all, has anyone done the math (or even gotten a subjective feel) for the difference between Black Rose and Heavy Seducer for the builds that are not completely block-dependent? I've always been partial to permanent buffs/stats rather than proc-based ones (it's the math / statistics background).

Lexxypwns

Crown wrote: »

@Lexxypwns @caeliusstarbreaker et all, has anyone done the math (or even gotten a subjective feel) for the difference between Black Rose and Heavy Seducer for the builds that are not completely block-dependent? I've always been partial to permanent buffs/stats rather than proc-based ones (it's the math / statistics background).

It isn't a matter of being block dependent so much as enabling blocking as a defensive measure that you can use . Without blackrose heavy you can't really block anything on a magika build since the stam loss is going to prevent you from CC breaking.

That being said, heavy seducer supplies similar sustain to black rose but offers none of the damage. It isn't a bad set at all and may even be BiS for heal/tanks. The math behind the heavy armor passives may not seem like the best, but I think if you spend some time playing in it you'll notice a decent increase in survibability.

Also worth noting is that the health passives of heavy armor have very good synergy with Undeath from the vamp line and that constitution procs restore resources even in mist form.

If you're going to run 5 amberplasm/5 kags you're going to give up a decent amount of damage from dropping willpower, almost equal to the difference in damage between running 5 light versus 5 heavy

Edit: Furthermore, blackrose allows you to drop atro stone and run something for more damage(thief usually, though on mageblade shadow may be more effective since you can guarantee crits)

Crown

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

you also have siphoning attacks which in turn gives you leeway to branch out to other sets, if you plan to be blocking, id advocate away from amber plasm, your stam loss can more readily be mitigates with a potion.

@caeliusstarbreaker I'm not playing the NB much anymore.. I take him out for nostalgia, but have been working on my Templar mage (mostly healing) recently. 4/5 x Transmute + 5 x Kagrenac + 2 x BloodSpawn (S&B/Resto) for small-ish groups in 5 light / 1 medium / 1 heavy. I'm very rarely among the first half of the group to die, even when focused by wrecking blow spamming egotistical megalomaniac 1vPotato players ;-) I was advised to try Black Rose, which prompted all this thinking..

Crown

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Also worth noting is that the health passives of heavy armor have very good synergy with Undeath from the vamp line and that constitution procs restore resources even in mist form

@Lexxypwns I've also not yet tried the new mist form that gives cc immunity.. That looks to be rather interesting as an escape as well. I still have nightmare flashbacks to Methusela's emperor dawnbreakers (of smiting) 1-shotting almost entire raids, then everyone going to cure vamp for the night..

caeliusstarbreaker

Crown wrote: »

@Lexxypwns @caeliusstarbreaker et all, has anyone done the math (or even gotten a subjective feel) for the difference between Black Rose and Heavy Seducer for the builds that are not completely block-dependent? I've always been partial to permanent buffs/stats rather than proc-based ones (it's the math / statistics background).

I haven't done the math, however... 8% cost reduction is easy enough to achieve without sacrificing too much cp. atro stone a change to high elf or Breton if you're feeling froggy would make up the differences between seducer, or at least marginalized the gap. I feel a little differently about BR cause it's not really "true proc" based as you're getting the constitution passive wearing heavy as is, BR is just giving it steroids, and some extra stam to mitigate with. It's more of a ymmv situation. Knowing your lead style i would say give it a try, if you feel like you have too much stam or not enough mag sustain, augment off that. It's a pretty forgiving set, which I think is part of the appeal. Stam or mag.

Lexxypwns

Crown wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Also worth noting is that the health passives of heavy armor have very good synergy with Undeath from the vamp line and that constitution procs restore resources even in mist form

@Lexxypwns I've also not yet tried the new mist form that gives cc immunity.. That looks to be rather interesting as an escape as well. I still have nightmare flashbacks to Methusela's emperor dawnbreakers (of smiting) 1-shotting almost entire raids, then everyone going to cure vamp for the night..

new mist form isn't perfect, but its a must have on all non-sorc magika builds imo

Crown

Lexxypwns wrote: »

The math behind the heavy armor passives may not seem like the best, but I think if you spend some time playing in it you'll notice a decent increase in survibability.

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Knowing your lead style i would say give it a try, if you feel like you have too much stam or not enough mag sustain, augment off that.

I'll definitely have to give it a try.. The telvar aren't an issue - one or two good bombs on a group in the centre, though the (8x5=) 40 gold upgrade mats are going to take some farming. I shouldn't have given away most of my stuff months ago..

Thanks again everyone for the input / responses!

caeliusstarbreaker

Crown wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

you also have siphoning attacks which in turn gives you leeway to branch out to other sets, if you plan to be blocking, id advocate away from amber plasm, your stam loss can more readily be mitigates with a potion.

@caeliusstarbreaker I'm not playing the NB much anymore.. I take him out for nostalgia, but have been working on my Templar mage (mostly healing) recently. 4/5 x Transmute + 5 x Kagrenac + 2 x BloodSpawn (S&B/Resto) for small-ish groups in 5 light / 1 medium / 1 heavy. I'm very rarely among the first half of the group to die, even when focused by wrecking blow spamming egotistical megalomaniac 1vPotato players ;-) I was advised to try Black Rose, which prompted all this thinking..

Magplar is just tanky as all hell in heavy atm. BR, Desert Rose, Kags, Seducer, hell even 5 cyro light work well on it.

Scamandros

Amberplasm has amazing stat efficiency, and the jewellry and gear is easy enough to farm however weapons are a real pain in the butt for some reason (for a optimal setup I want to try I require them in weapons. So far have all jewellry and armor slots in good traits, and one single dagger with powered). It should hopefully make mix and matching this set easier next patch when all pieces should drop in impen finally. As it is right now with all the burst and proc sets around you need every scrap of impen and resistance you can muster to avoid being blown apart in light armor while your shields are down.
Although I don't think that many magic builds are running black rose, if they are its likely because it ticks the mitigation and regen boxes at the same time, and allows for more opportunities for blocking as mentioned above.

caeliusstarbreaker

@Crown just run 5 deaths wind

Crown

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Magplar is just tanky as all hell in heavy atm. BR, Desert Rose, Kags, Seducer, hell even 5 cyro light work well on it.

Magplar is tanky as hell even in 5 light / 1 medium / 1 heavy.. Even without blazing shield, unless I get hit by a few people at the same time I seem to live through most situations now. It took a few raids to get back in the habit of good positioning! Last night was quite funny on Azuras with a few DC focusing me in every fight once they realised who I am.. The streamers who were so proud of their kills didn't seem to care about the other dozen DC who were X v 1'ing me at the same time. With heavy armour that would get even more interesting from a survival perspective, though I still feel like I would be decreasing my efficiency as a healer..

Crown

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

@Crown just run 5 deaths wind

I tried that a long time ago.. I hated the 30-second cool down!

caeliusstarbreaker

Crown wrote: »

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

@Crown just run 5 deaths wind

I tried that a long time ago.. I hated the 30-second cool down!

5 piece whitestrakes 5 fasalla BS Templar .. Do it