Proposed Debuff Limit

Asgari

With the coming introduction of dueling and a long needed addition since the introduction of poisons, I am proposing a 5 Debuff Limit be applied through battle spirit to players. This way players arent excessively debuffed through 4 debuffs from possible poisons, along with skill and set debuffs. Currently a player can be debuffed to the point you have zero clue what is actually on you and can cause a lot of confusion as to what is going on.

I know ZOS down the line is planning on adding a tracker for buffs/debuffs , but along with this addition they should honestly consider adding a limit to how many debuffs can be applied to a player. Currently there are just far too many things can be applied at once that overlap. Having it set to 5 will still force players to purge more than once if they have access to it, and those who dont have access to it will not be so overwhelmed by all of the unkown debuffs to them.

Im sure there are going to be people for and against this idea, and my only comment to those who are against it, is that if you have 5 debuffs applied to player and still have issues with killing them then possibly reconsider your build. 5 debuffs is a lot and gives you access to many different debuffs that can attack (healing, armor, resources, dmg done, etc.) all at once.

Having this done through battle spirit will keep it from affecting any PvE related game play.

susmitds

No way, man, DoT builds would go out of the window with this one and Templars would rule supreme.

Asgari

susmitds wrote: »

No way, man, DoT builds would go out of the window with this one and Templars would rule supreme.

What DOT build uses more than 5 DOTs? I am suggesting this based on the fact how many DOTs are applied to players with actually have to use a skill to apply the DOT.

But i dont know of any Class who has to apply more than 5 DOTs if you exclude poisons.

susmitds

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

No way, man, DoT builds would go out of the window with this one and Templars would rule supreme.

What DOT build uses more than 5 DOTs? I am suggesting this based on the fact how many DOTs are applied to players with actually have to use a skill to apply the DOT.

But i dont know of any Class who has to apply more than 5 DOTs if you exclude poisons.

NBs, DKs can easily cross that number. The real issue here are the poisons and need severe readjustment.

Asgari

susmitds wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

No way, man, DoT builds would go out of the window with this one and Templars would rule supreme.

What DOT build uses more than 5 DOTs? I am suggesting this based on the fact how many DOTs are applied to players with actually have to use a skill to apply the DOT.

But i dont know of any Class who has to apply more than 5 DOTs if you exclude poisons.

NBs, DKs can easily cross that number. The real issue here are the poisons and need severe readjustment.

DKs have (Burning/Poison DOT, Embers/Venom, Breath/Engulfing) Where are you getting they easily exceed more than 5? So 3 Class skill debuffs plus 2 weapon skill line debuffs isnt enough? you need more?

Im just trying to understand your point beyond the typical "No" statement that brings zero reasoning.

susmitds

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

No way, man, DoT builds would go out of the window with this one and Templars would rule supreme.

What DOT build uses more than 5 DOTs? I am suggesting this based on the fact how many DOTs are applied to players with actually have to use a skill to apply the DOT.

But i dont know of any Class who has to apply more than 5 DOTs if you exclude poisons.

NBs, DKs can easily cross that number. The real issue here are the poisons and need severe readjustment.

DKs have (Burning/Poison DOT, Embers/Venom, Breath/Engulfing) Where are you getting they easily exceed more than 5? So 3 Class skill debuffs plus 2 weapon skill line debuffs isnt enough? you need more?

Im just trying to understand your point beyond the typical "No" statement that brings zero reasoning.

NBs will have Major Fracture, Minor Maim, Major Defile, Poison Injection, Blood Craze and Beast Trap constantly on with multiple snares and possibly mark as well. Some of them are considered by the game as multiple debuffs from a single skill. Fear has 3 debuffs in it, Incapacitating Strike has 2, Mark has 3, Blood Craze has 2.

Asgari

susmitds wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

No way, man, DoT builds would go out of the window with this one and Templars would rule supreme.

What DOT build uses more than 5 DOTs? I am suggesting this based on the fact how many DOTs are applied to players with actually have to use a skill to apply the DOT.

But i dont know of any Class who has to apply more than 5 DOTs if you exclude poisons.

NBs, DKs can easily cross that number. The real issue here are the poisons and need severe readjustment.

DKs have (Burning/Poison DOT, Embers/Venom, Breath/Engulfing) Where are you getting they easily exceed more than 5? So 3 Class skill debuffs plus 2 weapon skill line debuffs isnt enough? you need more?

Im just trying to understand your point beyond the typical "No" statement that brings zero reasoning.

NBs will have Major Fracture, Minor Maim, Major Defile, Poison Injection, Blood Craze and Beast Trap constantly on with multiple snares and possibly mark as well. Some of them are considered by the game as multiple debuffs from a single skill. Fear has 3 debuffs in it, Incapacitating Strike has 2, Mark has 3, Blood Craze has 2.

Sounds like Stam NBs not getting poisons isn't a bad thing lol. But what if it was 6 instead of 5? You don't think that if you have 6 debuffs on a player and can't kill them then that is a build issue?

susmitds

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

No way, man, DoT builds would go out of the window with this one and Templars would rule supreme.

What DOT build uses more than 5 DOTs? I am suggesting this based on the fact how many DOTs are applied to players with actually have to use a skill to apply the DOT.

But i dont know of any Class who has to apply more than 5 DOTs if you exclude poisons.

NBs, DKs can easily cross that number. The real issue here are the poisons and need severe readjustment.

DKs have (Burning/Poison DOT, Embers/Venom, Breath/Engulfing) Where are you getting they easily exceed more than 5? So 3 Class skill debuffs plus 2 weapon skill line debuffs isnt enough? you need more?

Im just trying to understand your point beyond the typical "No" statement that brings zero reasoning.

NBs will have Major Fracture, Minor Maim, Major Defile, Poison Injection, Blood Craze and Beast Trap constantly on with multiple snares and possibly mark as well. Some of them are considered by the game as multiple debuffs from a single skill. Fear has 3 debuffs in it, Incapacitating Strike has 2, Mark has 3, Blood Craze has 2.

Sounds like Stam NBs not getting poisons isn't a bad thing lol. But what if it was 6 instead of 5? You don't think that if you have 6 debuffs on a player and can't kill them then that is a build issue?

Uh, you don't get what I mean here. Say I mark someone for the Major Fracture, but I will get two more debuffs which I have no use for but they are in the skill. Or, say Fear. When I fear someone for the CC, the person will get a snare and Minor Maim along with the Fear debuff. Incapacitating Strike can give three different debuffs of Major Defile, Minor Defile and extra damage taken. The thing is the player won't get a choice on which debuffs to apply particularly, so say after I mark an enemy and use Incapacitating Strike on him once, I won't be able to fear him or add DoTs on him, if debuffs are limited to 6.

caeliusstarbreaker

susmitds wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

No way, man, DoT builds would go out of the window with this one and Templars would rule supreme.

What DOT build uses more than 5 DOTs? I am suggesting this based on the fact how many DOTs are applied to players with actually have to use a skill to apply the DOT.

But i dont know of any Class who has to apply more than 5 DOTs if you exclude poisons.

NBs, DKs can easily cross that number. The real issue here are the poisons and need severe readjustment.

DKs have (Burning/Poison DOT, Embers/Venom, Breath/Engulfing) Where are you getting they easily exceed more than 5? So 3 Class skill debuffs plus 2 weapon skill line debuffs isnt enough? you need more?

Im just trying to understand your point beyond the typical "No" statement that brings zero reasoning.

NBs will have Major Fracture, Minor Maim, Major Defile, Poison Injection, Blood Craze and Beast Trap constantly on with multiple snares and possibly mark as well. Some of them are considered by the game as multiple debuffs from a single skill. Fear has 3 debuffs in it, Incapacitating Strike has 2, Mark has 3, Blood Craze has 2.

Sounds like Stam NBs not getting poisons isn't a bad thing lol. But what if it was 6 instead of 5? You don't think that if you have 6 debuffs on a player and can't kill them then that is a build issue?

Uh, you don't get what I mean here. Say I mark someone for the Major Fracture, but I will get two more debuffs which I have no use for but they are in the skill. Or, say Fear. When I fear someone for the CC, the person will get a snare and Minor Maim along with the Fear debuff. Incapacitating Strike can give three different debuffs of Major Defile, Minor Defile and extra damage taken. The thing is the player won't get a choice on which debuffs to apply particularly, so say after I mark an enemy and use Incapacitating Strike on him once, I won't be able to fear him or add DoTs on him, if debuffs are limited to 6.

So remove extraneous effects from skills, make it a limit to 1 debuff per skill, why is there minor maim and a snare at the end of fear? Why is there 3 debuffs on incap?

You're not choosing what debuffs you apply now, you're just tossing every available debuff out there anyway cause you can.

Limit 1 debuff to a skill. 2 debuffs of the skill does no damage. Then you can achieve whatever it is you want thereafter through poisons.

caeliusstarbreaker

Not you specifically ... The general you, the royal you.

Sugaroverdose

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

With the coming introduction of dueling and a long needed addition since the introduction of poisons, I am proposing a 5 Debuff Limit be applied through battle spirit to players. This way players arent excessively debuffed through 4 debuffs from possible poisons, along with skill and set debuffs. Currently a player can be debuffed to the point you have zero clue what is actually on you and can cause a lot of confusion as to what is going on.

I know ZOS down the line is planning on adding a tracker for buffs/debuffs , but along with this addition they should honestly consider adding a limit to how many debuffs can be applied to a player. Currently there are just far too many things can be applied at once that overlap. Having it set to 5 will still force players to purge more than once if they have access to it, and those who dont have access to it will not be so overwhelmed by all of the unkown debuffs to them.

Im sure there are going to be people for and against this idea, and my only comment to those who are against it, is that if you have 5 debuffs applied to player and still have issues with killing them then possibly reconsider your build. 5 debuffs is a lot and gives you access to many different debuffs that can attack (healing, armor, resources, dmg done, etc.) all at once.

Having this done through battle spirit will keep it from affecting any PvE related game play.

It remembers me good old days in Lineage2, when you troll competitors by buffing them with trash abilities, which kicks-out useful buffs because of locked buff/debuff numbers
But i would not agree, piercing mark counts as 3 debuffs but it doesn't actually makes killing non-nightblade target much easier

Rohamad_Ali

I have a question instead of a position . Would this make zergs more of a problem with AOE caps and debuff limits ? I understand the reason for the request this is just my only concern is if it will hurt us in long run like AOE caps did .

Thinking more on this it would actually limit the amount of debuffs large groups could put on individual people and may help protect people from large groups . Second cup of Coffee needed here .

Asgari

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I have a question instead of a position . Would this make zergs more of a problem with AOE caps and debuff limits ? I understand the reason for the request this is just my only concern is if it will hurt us in long run like AOE caps did .

Thinking more on this it would actually limit the amount of debuffs large groups could put on individual people and may help protect people from large groups . Second cup of Coffee needed here .

5 debuffs or 20 debuffs doesn't matter vs the massive zergs .. They purge spam and heal so much it would have almost no effect on them.

Rohamad_Ali

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I have a question instead of a position . Would this make zergs more of a problem with AOE caps and debuff limits ? I understand the reason for the request this is just my only concern is if it will hurt us in long run like AOE caps did .

Thinking more on this it would actually limit the amount of debuffs large groups could put on individual people and may help protect people from large groups . Second cup of Coffee needed here .

5 debuffs or 20 debuffs doesn't matter vs the massive zergs .. They purge spam and heal so much it would have almost no effect on them.

This would then help solo and small groups more . I also am in agreement that the amount of debuffs are out of control mostly due to poison introduction . Then again some people seem to have unlimited amounts of sustain from CP and duels go on forever . Maybe this 5 debuff limit in non CP campaigns and not in regular CP campaigns just for starters .

IxSTALKERxI

My personal best is 16 debuffs at once.

IxSTALKERxI

What would happen if you are already at limit of debuffs? would you be immune to caltrops & talons?

Draxys

susmitds wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

No way, man, DoT builds would go out of the window with this one and Templars would rule supreme.

What DOT build uses more than 5 DOTs? I am suggesting this based on the fact how many DOTs are applied to players with actually have to use a skill to apply the DOT.

But i dont know of any Class who has to apply more than 5 DOTs if you exclude poisons.

NBs, DKs can easily cross that number. The real issue here are the poisons and need severe readjustment.

DKs have (Burning/Poison DOT, Embers/Venom, Breath/Engulfing) Where are you getting they easily exceed more than 5? So 3 Class skill debuffs plus 2 weapon skill line debuffs isnt enough? you need more?

Im just trying to understand your point beyond the typical "No" statement that brings zero reasoning.

NBs will have Major Fracture, Minor Maim, Major Defile, Poison Injection, Blood Craze and Beast Trap constantly on with multiple snares and possibly mark as well. Some of them are considered by the game as multiple debuffs from a single skill. Fear has 3 debuffs in it, Incapacitating Strike has 2, Mark has 3, Blood Craze has 2.

Sounds like Stam NBs not getting poisons isn't a bad thing lol. But what if it was 6 instead of 5? You don't think that if you have 6 debuffs on a player and can't kill them then that is a build issue?

Uh, you don't get what I mean here. Say I mark someone for the Major Fracture, but I will get two more debuffs which I have no use for but they are in the skill. Or, say Fear. When I fear someone for the CC, the person will get a snare and Minor Maim along with the Fear debuff. Incapacitating Strike can give three different debuffs of Major Defile, Minor Defile and extra damage taken. The thing is the player won't get a choice on which debuffs to apply particularly, so say after I mark an enemy and use Incapacitating Strike on him once, I won't be able to fear him or add DoTs on him, if debuffs are limited to 6.

Why is it considered okay and balanced for just those skills to apply so many debuffs? You come across like you're trying not to lose an unbalanced set of easily acquired advantages.

I don't really have a problem with damaging abilities being included in this, but it seems like they could be excluded if necessary. For instance, the damage of banner would not count toward the negative effect limit, but the defile would. I wouldn't really trust zos to implement that successfully, but I could see the damage and effects being treated as separate "debuffs" so that builds like stam DKs would still get their damage but not be able to stack 10 debuffs.

Asgari

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

What would happen if you are already at limit of debuffs? would you be immune to caltrops & talons?

imo if the skill does something like dmg or heal etc or a soft CC it would still apply those effects.

As a perfect example, if a target has 5 debuffs on them and is hit with talons they would take the talon dmg and be soft CC but the debuff of burning wouldn't apply to them.

Astanphaeus

No.

Joy_Division

I don't even try to run a debuff build nor do I used poisons and I can put more than 5 on a target on my templar (heal debuff, entropy DoT, two snares, burning, concussed, eclipsed). I think your proposal would really screw over players that actually try to use a debuff/DoT playstyle, which would make even more players opt for burst, set proc cookie-cutter builds.

Also, there is a huge problem and extra server calculations regarding which 5 debuffs are going to be put onto a player. If I can't put a heal debuff on someone I am fighting because some PuG decided to randomly structure entropy that person, then that would royally suck.

Asgari

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't even try to run a debuff build nor do I used poisons and I can put more than 5 on a target on my templar (heal debuff, entropy DoT, two snares, burning, concussed, eclipsed). I think your proposal would really screw over players that actually try to use a debuff/DoT playstyle, which would make even more players opt for burst, set proc cookie-cutter builds.

Also, there is a huge problem and extra server calculations regarding which 5 debuffs are going to be put onto a player. If I can't put a heal debuff on someone I am fighting because some PuG decided to randomly structure entropy that person, then that would royally suck.

5 might be the wrong amount but you have to start somewhere correct?

Astanphaeus

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't even try to run a debuff build nor do I used poisons and I can put more than 5 on a target on my templar (heal debuff, entropy DoT, two snares, burning, concussed, eclipsed). I think your proposal would really screw over players that actually try to use a debuff/DoT playstyle, which would make even more players opt for burst, set proc cookie-cutter builds.

Also, there is a huge problem and extra server calculations regarding which 5 debuffs are going to be put onto a player. If I can't put a heal debuff on someone I am fighting because some PuG decided to randomly structure entropy that person, then that would royally suck.

5 might be the wrong amount but you have to start somewhere correct?

The correct place to start and end is limitless.

lolo_01b16_ESO

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't even try to run a debuff build nor do I used poisons and I can put more than 5 on a target on my templar (heal debuff, entropy DoT, two snares, burning, concussed, eclipsed). I think your proposal would really screw over players that actually try to use a debuff/DoT playstyle, which would make even more players opt for burst, set proc cookie-cutter builds.

Also, there is a huge problem and extra server calculations regarding which 5 debuffs are going to be put onto a player. If I can't put a heal debuff on someone I am fighting because some PuG decided to randomly structure entropy that person, then that would royally suck.

5 might be the wrong amount but you have to start somewhere correct?

No, it's also allowed to realize that an idea wasn't that good and forget about it. The main issue is that there are so many little debuffs that are applied as side effects, that the limit would have to be so high, that it won't prevent most poison builds.

DisgracefulMind

I feel like 5 is too few, but the solution just doesn't seem like it'd be that simple. I do know, however, than anyone who thinks the amount of debuffs that can be applied to you at any given time is okay and totally healthy for the game is a complete idiot.

There are so many debuffs going on that you basically never know wtf is on you. Something needs to change /:

caeliusstarbreaker

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I feel like 5 is too few, but the solution just doesn't seem like it'd be that simple. I do know, however, than anyone who thinks the amount of debuffs that can be applied to you at any given time is okay and totally healthy for the game is a complete idiot.

There are so many debuffs going on that you basically never know wtf is on you. Something needs to change /:

This... Way too many effects/debuffs in this game. Limit them.

Edit: meaning drastically reduce the amount of effects tied to abilities.

zyk

This looks like a "make outnumbered combat easier" thread.

BurritoESO

This is just a proposed bandaid fix to something stupid zenimax implemented into their game, they should just remove poisons all together... oh wait, never mind, everyone who works there is autistic.

AhPook_Is_Here

Rather than limit it, just get with your modders to give you filter options on your UI buff/de-buff display so you can turn off ones that don't merit purge or who's effects are obvious, status, snare, stun, off-balance and so on. Don't care about minor maim or fracture, filter it off the UI.

If ZoS does it, there is no knowing how badly they could mess it up. "Major fracture failed: error, de-buff limit reached!" or "you apply minor maim; major fracture removed, de-buff limit exceeded" or, "error; too many status effects active".

Anyway it's a problem for UI modders to work though, game balance shouldn't be reworked based on UI clutter.

Asgari

zyk wrote: »

This looks like a "make outnumbered combat easier" thread.

Coming from me that is clearly not a goal of mine. Also having a cap on debuffs would help small scale pvp more than zergs. Zergs are already purge and heal spamming endlessly, this would just allow smaller groups the chance at having a better shot wiping these bad groups that just use AOE caps to survive.