soft caps and cp poll

lucky_Sage

cp added and the soft cap removal worst thing in game
I would like soft caps back and a complete rework of cp those are the biggest issues in the game balance

Wifeaggro13

yes - just for cp rework

The CP system is a very shallow system that was exploited early by a portion of the community. There are some very messy aspects of this games structure. Needing pvp abilities for end game pve, though you level strictly in Cyrodiil and Excell in endgame pve with crafted gear due to High cp and gear drops in VR 4 man's being garbage . The CP system needs to have actives that unlock and some class bonus aspects. This cp system just allows you to build an unkillable pvp chr that is a one shot master.

lucky_Sage

yes - for cp rework and soft caps added back

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

The CP system is a very shallow system that was exploited early by a portion of the community. There are some very messy aspects of this games structure. Needing pvp abilities for end game pve, though you level strictly in Cyrodiil and Excell in endgame pve with crafted gear due to High cp and gear drops in VR 4 man's being garbage . The CP system needs to have actives that unlock and some class bonus aspects. This cp system just allows you to build an unkillable pvp chr that is a one shot master.

don't forget super regen and in pve it allows you to basically ignore all boss mechanics in vet dungeons and solo some

Wifeaggro13

yes - just for cp rework

lucky_Sage wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

The CP system is a very shallow system that was exploited early by a portion of the community. There are some very messy aspects of this games structure. Needing pvp abilities for end game pve, though you level strictly in Cyrodiil and Excell in endgame pve with crafted gear due to High cp and gear drops in VR 4 man's being garbage . The CP system needs to have actives that unlock and some class bonus aspects. This cp system just allows you to build an unkillable pvp chr that is a one shot master.

don't forget super regen and in pve it allows you to basically ignore all boss mechanics in vet dungeons and solo some

Vigor for the win

lucky_Sage

yes - for cp rework and soft caps added back

lucky_Sage wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

The CP system is a very shallow system that was exploited early by a portion of the community. There are some very messy aspects of this games structure. Needing pvp abilities for end game pve, though you level strictly in Cyrodiil and Excell in endgame pve with crafted gear due to High cp and gear drops in VR 4 man's being garbage . The CP system needs to have actives that unlock and some class bonus aspects. This cp system just allows you to build an unkillable pvp chr that is a one shot master.

don't forget super regen and in pve it allows you to basically ignore all boss mechanics in vet dungeons and solo some

@Wifeaggro13
yes I'm all for a cp rework and make it actually specialize not be all in one like it is now
it would fix so much a nightblade who is burst shouldn't be able to do it more than 2 to 3 times without resource gone or any other class

Glurin

yes - for cp rework and soft caps added back

Of the available options, I do think CP could use a rework, but having soft caps put back in would by itself be hugely beneficial.

Wifeaggro13

yes - just for cp rework

Glurin wrote: »

Of the available options, I do think CP could use a rework, but having soft caps put back in would by itself be hugely beneficial.

System needs to be completely redoen its worse then EQ 1 AA system. something a bit more along the lines of EQ2 would be more modern and and keep people form becoming godly . they would have to specialize

Rune_Relic

I cant agree specifically to any of it.

1. Soft caps fix the buff stacking, but eliminate variation and uniqueness in the process. I dont see anything other than a strength+weakness system being viable.
2. The general concept of CP only needs tweaking to fix...the worst culprit being the +stamina/magicka/health. The other is the unlocks are badly balanced and vertical. They need proper balancing and selectable in the horizontal sense. Much like levelling up skills/passives and unlocking any skills at 50+ skill level. 1 unlock @ 10, 2 unlock @ 30, 3 unlock @ 75, 4 unlock @ 120. What options you select is upto you.

lucky_Sage

yes - for cp rework and soft caps added back

Rune_Relic wrote: »

I cant agree specifically to any of it.

1. Soft caps fix the buff stacking, but eliminate variation and uniqueness in the process. I dont see anything other than a strength+weakness system being viable.
2. The general concept of CP only needs tweaking to fix...the worst culprit being the +stamina/magicka/health. The other is the unlocks are badly balanced and vertical. They need proper balancing and selectable in the horizontal sense. Much like levelling up skills/passives and unlocking any skills at 50+ skill level. 1 unlock @ 10, 2 unlock @ 30, 3 unlock @ 75, 4 unlock @ 120. What options you select is upto you.

@Rune_Relic

the problem with CP is you get resistance, sustain and Damage it doesn't make you give up stuff for anything other than stam or magicka

Rune_Relic

lucky_Sage wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

I cant agree specifically to any of it.

1. Soft caps fix the buff stacking, but eliminate variation and uniqueness in the process. I dont see anything other than a strength+weakness system being viable.
2. The general concept of CP only needs tweaking to fix...the worst culprit being the +stamina/magicka/health. The other is the unlocks are badly balanced and vertical. They need proper balancing and selectable in the horizontal sense. Much like levelling up skills/passives and unlocking any skills at 50+ skill level. 1 unlock @ 10, 2 unlock @ 30, 3 unlock @ 75, 4 unlock @ 120. What options you select is upto you.

@Rune_Relic

the problem with CP is you get resistance, sustain and Damage it doesn't make you give up stuff for anything other than stam or magicka

Then invoke a strength+weakness system there too instead of just the strength.
I know what you are saying....but the attribute system is almost as meaningless when you can escape/heal/mitigate/damage all with the same one resource anyway...and scale off it.
You'd need a complete moratorium to fix that mess....and pretty much start from scrap.

Sheuib

no - for cp rework and soft caps added back

Soft caps are not needed. Most unbalanced builds do not survive long in cyrodiil. So basically the constantly dieing will force people to balance.

Rune_Relic

Sheuib wrote: »

Soft caps are not needed. Most unbalanced builds do not survive long in cyrodiil. So basically the constantly dieing will force people to balance.

Sighs. I think the point has flown past at high speed and altitude.
Should we just write off 90% of builds because only 10% are competitive or make all of them competitive ?

threefarms

no

Saint_Bud

yes - for cp rework and soft caps added back

All this builds and sets what people make cry in pvp would no problem with soft caps and a good cp disign ( eye of the storm is a other thing) . It will also help when just the cp buffs are reduced from +25% to like 10% ore so. For pve a lot of people will think that the are gimpt, but it will help them, because the dps differant from the top to casual players will be much lower. That will make content much easier do ballance, just look at vmol. ( btw i have cleared all vet trials and dont whant the easy way, its just good players and groups proffit much more from high dps numbers)

idk

no - for cp rework and soft caps added back

@lucky_Sage

So why do you think removal of soft caps and the CP system were the worst think for your gaming experience?


Also, the forum polls are just for entertainment purposes and do not offer usable information to Zos since it doesn't provide Zos with the thoughts of the gaming community, just those that visit the forums and choose to ire this thread and follow up with voting.

dday3six

no - for cp rework and soft caps added back

Some people keep saying that the removal Softcaps was terrible, but they never actually articulate why that was the case.

Still_Mind

yes - just for soft caps added back

I'm in favour of softcaps. Make them high, make them "soft" (unlike at release), allow players to make a meaningful choice between superspecialization and hybridization.

Glurin

yes - for cp rework and soft caps added back

dday3six wrote: »

Some people keep saying that the removal Softcaps was terrible, but they never actually articulate why that was the case.

Because it leaves you in the position of "Specialize or die." With soft caps, you can specialize and do a bit more damage, or you can put a few points in other things and shore up some weaknesses or gain some extra utility yet still be viable. Without soft caps, if you spend any resources on anything other than your primary focus, you are severely gimping your character and you will be left in the dust.

Hence it is the lack of soft caps that eliminates variation and uniqueness. Not their presence.

hrothbern

no - for cp rework and soft caps added back

If ESO would be a simple game, soft caps could be used.

But we have a game very rich in choices..... a complex game.... more complex game than you can practically control in every detail.
Therefore soft caps had to be removed...
just like you remove the two little side wheels from your first bike when you start learning to bike as a little child.


Look at the enormous variety of living organism that populate every ecological niche on earth.
In nature there are no artificial boundaries....
only natural diminishing returns and vulnerability for organisms that strongly specialise and stack for certain niches
often driven by economical cost effects

Artificial boundaries, regulations, are human made
rooted in the idea of makeability and that we can control it all
But the more complex the total situation, the more chance these artifacts backfire, cause side effects, only causing finer regulating the game.
The more is handled by root balancing, the less intervention (which soft caps are) is needed.

Regarding the CP tree.
My guess is that we will see some tweaking there in the future.
But not because it is wrong, but because the progressive feedback and insight on the totality will naturally lead to improving tweaks.

dday3six

no - for cp rework and soft caps added back

Glurin wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Some people keep saying that the removal Softcaps was terrible, but they never actually articulate why that was the case.

Because it leaves you in the position of "Specialize or die." With soft caps, you can specialize and do a bit more damage, or you can put a few points in other things and shore up some weaknesses or gain some extra utility yet still be viable. Without soft caps, if you spend any resources on anything other than your primary focus, you are severely gimping your character and you will be left in the dust.

Hence it is the lack of soft caps that eliminates variation and uniqueness. Not their presence.

You mean a position of choice to be a Magicka or a Stamina build? Cause all it seems like your saying is a return to pre-Stamina builds, with Magicka builds being able to pump Stamina to receive extra utility via more sprinting, dodging, break-free and blocking thanks to an increased Stamina pool.

I don't see much uniqueness and variation coming from that. I see more a return to only Magicka builds. All of the utility that comes from a larger Stamina pool is part of what makes Stamina builds possible.

Qbiken

Where is the option: Keep it as it is??

idk

no - for cp rework and soft caps added back

Glurin wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Some people keep saying that the removal Softcaps was terrible, but they never actually articulate why that was the case.

Because it leaves you in the position of "Specialize or die." With soft caps, you can specialize and do a bit more damage, or you can put a few points in other things and shore up some weaknesses or gain some extra utility yet still be viable. Without soft caps, if you spend any resources on anything other than your primary focus, you are severely gimping your character and you will be left in the dust.

Hence it is the lack of soft caps that eliminates variation and uniqueness. Not their presence.

@Glurin

While an interesting read, your post is incorrect.

All soft caps did was have us put some attribute points into health. That was it.

Pure builds always outperformed any sort of hybridization. Hybrids do not have a chance to compete with pure builds due to the base design of the game.

Flameheart

no - for cp rework and soft caps added back

I thought we would be over that by now. This game gives already enough freedom of choice concerning builds and the ability to fullfill roles.

The base design of the game favors pure builds, be there soft caps or not. Without softcaps the effect is just stronger.

Waffennacht

I hate your options

Glurin

yes - for cp rework and soft caps added back

dday3six wrote: »

You mean a position of choice to be a Magicka or a Stamina build?

Exactly. You either go Magicka or you go Stamina. That's it. No variation. No real choice beyond that. Just one or the other. It's all just a matter of which FotM you want to use today, because anything else is simply not viable and/or wildly under performs in comparison.

Glurin

yes - for cp rework and soft caps added back

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Glurin wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Some people keep saying that the removal Softcaps was terrible, but they never actually articulate why that was the case.

Because it leaves you in the position of "Specialize or die." With soft caps, you can specialize and do a bit more damage, or you can put a few points in other things and shore up some weaknesses or gain some extra utility yet still be viable. Without soft caps, if you spend any resources on anything other than your primary focus, you are severely gimping your character and you will be left in the dust.

Hence it is the lack of soft caps that eliminates variation and uniqueness. Not their presence.

@Glurin

While an interesting read, your post is incorrect.

All soft caps did was have us put some attribute points into health. That was it.

Pure builds always outperformed any sort of hybridization. Hybrids do not have a chance to compete with pure builds due to the base design of the game.

They don't have a chance now that soft caps have been removed. Yes a pure build will out perform a hybrid under simple metrics like DPS. That's the point of going pure build. The point of soft caps was to make sure pure builds didn't outperform them to such a degree that anything other than a pure build is simply not viable at all for end game content.

Rune_Relic

hrothbern wrote: »

If ESO would be a simple game, soft caps could be used.

But we have a game very rich in choices..... a complex game.... more complex game than you can practically control in every detail.
Therefore soft caps had to be removed...
just like you remove the two little side wheels from your first bike when you start learning to bike as a little child.


Look at the enormous variety of living organism that populate every ecological niche on earth.
In nature there are no artificial boundaries....
only natural diminishing returns and vulnerability for organisms that strongly specialise and stack for certain niches
often driven by economical cost effects

Artificial boundaries, regulations, are human made
rooted in the idea of makeability and that we can control it all
But the more complex the total situation, the more chance these artifacts backfire, cause side effects, only causing finer regulating the game.
The more is handled by root balancing, the less intervention (which soft caps are) is needed.

Regarding the CP tree.
My guess is that we will see some tweaking there in the future.
But not because it is wrong, but because the progressive feedback and insight on the totality will naturally lead to improving tweaks.

Agreed
Except everything is subject to the 1st law of thermodynamics.
There is only change from mass to energy and vice versa.
..or newtons second law if you prefer.
The equation must balance...regardless of uniqueness.

Waffennacht

Rune_Relic wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

If ESO would be a simple game, soft caps could be used.

But we have a game very rich in choices..... a complex game.... more complex game than you can practically control in every detail.
Therefore soft caps had to be removed...
just like you remove the two little side wheels from your first bike when you start learning to bike as a little child.


Look at the enormous variety of living organism that populate every ecological niche on earth.
In nature there are no artificial boundaries....
only natural diminishing returns and vulnerability for organisms that strongly specialise and stack for certain niches
often driven by economical cost effects

Artificial boundaries, regulations, are human made
rooted in the idea of makeability and that we can control it all
But the more complex the total situation, the more chance these artifacts backfire, cause side effects, only causing finer regulating the game.
The more is handled by root balancing, the less intervention (which soft caps are) is needed.

Regarding the CP tree.
My guess is that we will see some tweaking there in the future.
But not because it is wrong, but because the progressive feedback and insight on the totality will naturally lead to improving tweaks.

Agreed
Except everything is subject to the 1st law of thermodynamics.
There is only change from mass to energy and vice versa.
..or newtons second law if you prefer.
The equation must balance...regardless of uniqueness.

Which wouldn't that then refute string theory? I think so...

(Now Eso verse is awesome - actually no stars, no sun, no balls of nuclear explosions, they are literally holes in the plane created by spirits) the appearance of men looking similar to mer (same with argonians) are purely coincidence, as I belwmen are close related to bears in tes.

Edziu

yes - for cp rework and soft caps added back

if I good remember before cp implemented ZOS was saying cp will give very very small bonuses while now 100 point into 1 skill, to damage its 25% bonus damage (300 cp total) and this is a huge gap difference + just of max stats as I have seen, cap cp, 561 points, 186 per colourt, with buff food 35k max stamina and without cp on azura almost 30k max stamina, additional 5k+ max atribute points in this 180 cp per coulourt also is huge difference to dps

cp planned to give very small bonuses to be a balance, not huge difference between begginers and veteran players but now this gaop between 160 cp playr and cap cp player is very huge gape which should be much smaller as it was planned

Saint_Bud

yes - for cp rework and soft caps added back

Edziu wrote: »

if I good remember before cp implemented ZOS was saying cp will give very very small bonuses while now 100 point into 1 skill, to damage its 25% bonus damage (300 cp total) and this is a huge gap difference + just of max stats as I have seen, cap cp, 561 points, 186 per colourt, with buff food 35k max stamina and without cp on azura almost 30k max stamina, additional 5k+ max atribute points in this 180 cp per coulourt also is huge difference to dps

cp planned to give very small bonuses to be a balance, not huge difference between begginers and veteran players but now this gaop between 160 cp playr and cap cp player is very huge gape which should be much smaller as it was planned

But no one would grind cps back in 1.6 if bonus is very small. Its the same with bis gear. When the differant is very small moast people will stop grinding and then they have nothing to do. Good thing for ZOS to force people playing old content.

AzuraKin

yes - just for soft caps added back

Rune_Relic wrote: »

I cant agree specifically to any of it.

1. Soft caps fix the buff stacking, but eliminate variation and uniqueness in the process. I dont see anything other than a strength+weakness system being viable.
2. The general concept of CP only needs tweaking to fix...the worst culprit being the +stamina/magicka/health. The other is the unlocks are badly balanced and vertical. They need proper balancing and selectable in the horizontal sense. Much like levelling up skills/passives and unlocking any skills at 50+ skill level. 1 unlock @ 10, 2 unlock @ 30, 3 unlock @ 75, 4 unlock @ 120. What options you select is upto you.

actually it would improve variation as there would be a limit on max resources and weapon/spell power.