Why bother leveling or upgrading gear now?

nathan_bri

So I just got into the PTS and did a test between one of my CP531 Nightblades with a Masters Bow and two sets active and a brand-new Nightblade with just the gear given to me. I did some questing to get her to level 4 before thinking of doing this comparison, but she has no CP spent and only has the Stamina points available at level 4 spent.

The CP531 Nightblade does about 1250 per hit of white damage against a humanoid target (a bandit) just to the east of Daggerfall in Glenumbra.

The Level 4 Nightblade does about 1640 per hit of white damage against pretty much the same a humanoid target (also a bandit in the same general area) just to the east of Daggerfall in Glenumbra.

So... tell me again why I should bother leveling my Level 4 and gearing her up just so she can become LESS powerful now?

sadownik

That what i was afraid of... Either this or too hard for new players, guess which Z. chooses?

nathan_bri

Yes, I feared this might happen, which is why I decided to test it.

disintegr8

I think the game is now focused on the short attention span players who buy a new game, want to complete it in a few weeks and move on to the next game. Anything they cannot complete in a couple of attempts is the games fault and they give up saying it is either broken or too hard.

Based on a new DLC every quarter, ZOS hope these players will come beck every few months to buy the DLC, play with for a couple of weeks and move on again.

brandonv516

It's already this way. I leveled my Magicka DK in IC from 30-50 with crafted level 10 gear. My stats were insane the way the game upscaled my character.

But the minute I hit 50, everything dropped and I wasn't worth a skeever's *** afterwards.

Parafrost

nathan_bri wrote: »

So I just got into the PTS and did a test between one of my CP531 Nightblades with a Masters Bow and two sets active and a brand-new Nightblade with just the gear given to me. I did some questing to get her to level 4 before thinking of doing this comparison, but she has no CP spent and only has the Stamina points available at level 4 spent.

The CP531 Nightblade does about 1250 per hit of white damage against a humanoid target (a bandit) just to the east of Daggerfall in Glenumbra.

The Level 4 Nightblade does about 1640 per hit of white damage against pretty much the same a humanoid target (also a bandit in the same general area) just to the east of Daggerfall in Glenumbra.

So... tell me again why I should bother leveling my Level 4 and gearing her up just so she can become LESS powerful now?

uhh... theres a big difference between cp160 gear and lvl4 gear lol especially when u hit lvl50...

Ackwalan

A low level toon geared out with appropriate level gear will have higher hits from unbuffed light and heavy attacks. Since that low level toon does not have as many skill points, his overall damage will be less when all abilities are included. Now if you are thinking about using low level gear on high level toons, your low level gear will not be a effective on high level toons, so you will still have to upgrade your gear as you level.

nathan_bri

I don’t think you people are getting what I am saying here. My level 4 character, without any CP spent, with only 4 Skill Points and like 3 Attribute Points and *** gear can out-DPS my CP531 toon in Trial gear. This points to a problem with their approach with One Tamriel. Do I have a way to do it better off the top of my head? No. But I am certainly disincentivized to level a character that will necessarily just become weaker over time due to the way the scaling works.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

nathan_bri wrote: »

I don’t think you people are getting what I am saying here. My level 4 character, without any CP spent, with only 4 Skill Points and like 3 Attribute Points and *** gear can out-DPS my CP531 toon in Trial gear. This points to a problem with their approach with One Tamriel. Do I have a way to do it better off the top of my head? No. But I am certainly disincentivized to level a character that will necessarily just become weaker over time due to the way the scaling works.

Maybe because you are in the open world, which is NOT end game. Try to run any of the endgame stuff, you will be at a massive disadvantage.

Seriously, the overland stuff is fluff and so easy anyways, most classes can get my with just spamming one skill there. But take it to any dungeon or trial and you will be destroyed.

nathan_bri

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Maybe because you are in the open world, which is NOT end game. Try to run any of the endgame stuff, you will be at a massive disadvantage.

Seriously, the overland stuff is fluff and so easy anyways, most classes can get my with just spamming one skill there. But take it to any dungeon or trial and you will be destroyed.

You are still not addressing the fact that a character becomes comparatively less powerful as they level due to the way artificial scaling is occurring in One Tamriel, of course with the best of intentions due to new players needing a bit of help against what are CP160 mobs. Why am I leveling if not to become more powerful? If I become less powerful over time, I lose one of the major incentives to playing. I can't think of any other game where you become less powerful over time.

Perhaps they can hide this effect by making it appear as if mobs are your level (up to the CP160 mob cap). If I am level 4, put a “4” on the mob. My friend next to me instead sees “12” because he's been playing longer. If I am CP531, put a “CP160” on the mob as it currently is in the game in some areas. This at least gives the appearance of progression and partly explains why a character with more spells and better gear might be working harder and taking longer to kill the same mob.

nathan_bri

Parafrost wrote: »

uhh... theres a big difference between cp160 gear and lvl4 gear lol especially when u hit lvl50...

You are not getting what I am saying. Yes, the gear gets better, but, in One Tamriel, you actually become less powerful against the same CP160 mobs. They are doing more than simply battle-leveling you to CP160 to fight against CP160 mobs. There is some other hidden multiplier in effect which artificially raises your power against the same mob by at least a factor of two when you are low level. That's the only possible explanation for the numbers I am seeing.

Perhaps it's enough for them to make it “seem” as if the mob is my same level. So, for example, I am level 4 and all mobs look like they are level 4 to me. That would make more sense of the results I am seeing. When I reach 50 and switch to CP10, all mobs look like CP10 to me... and so on. It’s nothing more than UI sleight-of-hand, but it would explain the seeming power differential. This is similar to how WoW is now handling Legion: where all mobs are made to look like they are scaled to your level, regardless of what level you actually are between 100 and 110. It‘s all UI sleight of hand, and it does feel like it robs you of something meaningful progression-wise, but it does not feel as if it robs as much as One Tamriel does.

Rosveen

nathan_bri wrote: »

I don’t think you people are getting what I am saying here. My level 4 character, without any CP spent, with only 4 Skill Points and like 3 Attribute Points and *** gear can out-DPS my CP531 toon in Trial gear.

Does this still hold true if you use a full DPS rotation against a boss, not only light attacks on overland mobs?

bebynnag

battle levelling has always given better results than you achieve once you actually reach that level

level 15 stamDK in PvP in blue hunding/nightmother no jewelry oneshot a friend with dragon leap;
the same character at vet10 in purple hunding/night mother endurance jewelry pushing for emp soling resources, keeps and winning 1 v5's
same character at vet16 in gold hunding, kena, 2 leki & 3agility, maxed undaunted 5:1:1 set up, dies to zerg of level 10s in sewers!

Arnorien16

What is the result when A appropriately geared Level 4 and a Appropriately geared CP 160+ dish it out using more than just light/heavy attacks?

Because if I remember correct ... the passives alone make a big difference.

Lord_Eomer

nathan_bri wrote: »

So I just got into the PTS and did a test between one of my CP531 Nightblades with a Masters Bow and two sets active and a brand-new Nightblade with just the gear given to me. I did some questing to get her to level 4 before thinking of doing this comparison, but she has no CP spent and only has the Stamina points available at level 4 spent.

The CP531 Nightblade does about 1250 per hit of white damage against a humanoid target (a bandit) just to the east of Daggerfall in Glenumbra.

The Level 4 Nightblade does about 1640 per hit of white damage against pretty much the same a humanoid target (also a bandit in the same general area) just to the east of Daggerfall in Glenumbra.

So... tell me again why I should bother leveling my Level 4 and gearing her up just so she can become LESS powerful now?

U need to unlock skills level and better gear, if u are level 10 then level 4 gear will not scale well for u.

Thats why higest gear matters, i like scaling changes done by ZOS. +1 for this cheers!

Weapon ultimates for magicka need serious tweaking. Not a favour to nerf stamina weapon ultimates but buff magicka.

Junipus

You state that a level 4 is more effective than a CP531, but I'm pretty sure a level 36 would be just as effective as a level 4. It might drop off once you reach either CP or CP cap but by that point you have all your skills and gear which makes you just as effective.

Mush55

Dont agree with the scaling they may as well let you start the game at max lvl the way it's starting to look. They are slowly taking away all the challenge and making it all dull.

Bryanonymous

Is this really a complaint that the game is easier when you start? You actually play games so you can make them easier? Whatever happened to the attitude that harder is better because it gives you a challenge?

Why level? You tell us. It's your decision to sit at low level and have a crutch if you want. Did you test your level 4 on a vet dungeon? Oh, that's right, you need to unlock those...

ADarklore

Why level? Actually, you DON'T have a choice... you cannot 'turn off' XP gain... so you WILL level regardless. Which means, you will also have to change your gear because there are many calculations involved in the battle leveling process which includes calculating character level and gear equipped.

Adernath

Personally I dislike the idea that every zone is leveled towards your own level, leading to exactly such phenomena the OP was posting and no motivation to level at all.

The entire solo content is way too easy, besides of certain dungeons and areas like the maelstrom arena.

In the past too many people complained about the vet content, so that's what we got now. In the past the only thing which they should have changed was the amount of mobs within the areas (they were strong, but too many IMO).

ADarklore

Adernath wrote: »

Personally I dislike the idea that every zone is leveled towards your own level, leading to exactly such phenomena the OP was posting and no motivation to level at all.

The entire solo content is way too easy, besides of certain dungeons and areas like the maelstrom arena.

In the past too many people complained about the vet content, so that's what we got now. In the past the only thing which they should have changed was the amount of mobs within the areas (they were strong, but too many IMO).

So people are complaining that there is no incentive to reach max level in a week? How dare ZOS make their game last even longer by making the rush to max level a bit less important.

Adernath

ADarklore wrote: »

So people are complaining that there is no incentive to reach max level in a week? How dare ZOS make their game last even longer by making the rush to max level a bit less important.

I don't understand your point

LEGENDARYYY

nathan_bri wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Maybe because you are in the open world, which is NOT end game. Try to run any of the endgame stuff, you will be at a massive disadvantage.

Seriously, the overland stuff is fluff and so easy anyways, most classes can get my with just spamming one skill there. But take it to any dungeon or trial and you will be destroyed.

You are still not addressing the fact that a character becomes comparatively less powerful as they level due to the way artificial scaling is occurring in One Tamriel, of course with the best of intentions due to new players needing a bit of help against what are CP160 mobs. Why am I leveling if not to become more powerful? If I become less powerful over time, I lose one of the major incentives to playing. I can't think of any other game where you become less powerful over time.

Perhaps they can hide this effect by making it appear as if mobs are your level (up to the CP160 mob cap). If I am level 4, put a “4” on the mob. My friend next to me instead sees “12” because he's been playing longer. If I am CP531, put a “CP160” on the mob as it currently is in the game in some areas. This at least gives the appearance of progression and partly explains why a character with more spells and better gear might be working harder and taking longer to kill the same mob.

No way a lvl 4 can out dps a cp531.

maybe on a light attack but not in a full rotation, EVER.

So, you are missing the point here.

In a sustained fight that lvl 4 player may have 15-20k dps maximum, while a fully geared cp531 have up to 50k.

I have leveled chars in Orsinium from lvl 5 and up and the scaling is fine.

This thread smells of bad information.

ADarklore

Adernath wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

So people are complaining that there is no incentive to reach max level in a week? How dare ZOS make their game last even longer by making the rush to max level a bit less important.

I don't understand your point

You were saying there is no incentive to level... currently, new players come in and RUSH to reach max level because that's where they feel they need to be for content. But you're saying with One Tamriel there is 'no longer a reason to level' your character... which means that, theoretically, fewer players will feel the need to 'rush' to reach max level, thus prolonging their gaming experience in lower level zones. But this, of course, is all based upon the notion that new players will feel the 'no need to level characters', when in fact, they will not know any difference because they will have never played pre-One Tamriel. Keep in mind One Tamriel is being designed specifically for NEW players, not existing or returning.

exeeter702

To the op, you are indeed misinformed.

All things considered, a low level character will have higher base attack damage as you have observed, this is true thanks to battle leveling. Your observation that the higher you increase in level, the weaker your base damage becomes, this is also true. What you are not understanding is that the higher level you become, the more passives and active skills you gain access to which contribute to a significantly overall greater value.

Battle leveling is designed this way to compensate for the lack of an available full rotation and passives.

As a side note would you really want to play a level 4 character if it meant greater dps with only 3 skills at your disposal? Leveling is incentivized by giving the player a more robust gameplay experience with skill and build veriety. If a level 4 and a level 40 were in a group together and battle leveling gave the lvl 4 a couple thousand more dps, I would gladly take the lvl 40.

Also none of this matters since end game is where it's at, the over world has never been challenging, and your concerns have a short life span and are ultimately moot.

solangesimondsen

This thread is sort of related to what I came to the forums looking for. Here's my deal:

I had 4 lvl 50 characters. Some I messed around with after 50, but mostly I played my Sorc. Then my vid card died and I stopped playing for several months. I came back a few weeks ago. After reading up on the sorc changes, I allocated my points and started working on her from cp10. I love it. Lots of fun and she is better than ever. BUT! Here's the problem I'm having. My other 3 PCs are now also lvl cp 140-something. I decided I'd work on my Stam Nightblade. He doesn't have the skill lines and guilds leveled that are really needed for cp160 mobs and the damn lil Khajit keeps dying on me! lol

So... I think there is definitely a reason to level. The grind from 1 - 50 has always been easy-fluffy and that's good for noob players and no big deal for more experienced players. But to play at the higher levels you need to practice (and a not-to-demanding grind is helpful) and you need to work up your skill lines. Not having the skill lines on my Nightblade is definitely making progressing him MUCH more difficult.

worsttankever

If anything - leveling is more important. Over time your gear will become *** until you finally hit CP 160 and craft max level gear. Now even basic zones will scale you, accentuating this difference.

Sentinel

I'm addressing the OP directly:

If you log onto the live server right now and bring a level 7 character to fight level 7 mobs, is it any different than the ease in which a level 7 character on the PTS can fight the scaled mobs (in the same zone/area*)?

If no, then there is no problem in all honesty. It's just a psychological issue.
If yes, then what is different between the two scenarios, and how might they be changed?



As a side note, comparing the damage of light attacks does not include the full picture of discrepancies between a level 4 and a max level character. Sure a level 4's light attacks will hit harder, but they have fewer skills and can use them much less often, and a new player will not have min/maxed equipment for further stat gains either.

*(While all zones are equal, some earlier zones are still retain significantly easier mobs than others)

Eocosa

Honestly I may be missing a lot here as I have been gone for a bit, but while I get the OPs point completely and that should definitely be addressed.

However, it seems the OP comparison was simply from white damage and while that does contribute to dps, the lack of actual abilities whether it is damage abilities or utility from other abilities will most definitely be lacking in the lvl4.

Perhaps this can lead to the difference in dps and incentive to level as opposed to wrecking everything at a starting level.

Magic_Doogies

nathan_bri wrote: »

I don’t think you people are getting what I am saying here. My level 4 character, without any CP spent, with only 4 Skill Points and like 3 Attribute Points and *** gear can out-DPS my CP531 toon in Trial gear. This points to a problem with their approach with One Tamriel. Do I have a way to do it better off the top of my head? No. But I am certainly disincentivized to level a character that will necessarily just become weaker over time due to the way the scaling works.

That's probably because the ads you are facing aren't buffed or leveled to any real insane degree. I just leveled my sorc toon and noticed the same thing. Knowing what the *** you are doing and having well made garbage gear can make a world of difference in the low level areas. But hit yourself up in 160CP scaled areas like Wrothgar and you are going to find yourself having a much harder time.
Your character isn't weaker when they hit vet level so much as the enemies are now appropriately buffed to be able to take more hits (and deal harder hits) on players who passively throw on whatever and call it a day.

Rex-Umbra

Players get a 97% dmg bonys at lvl 3 and it drops 3% every level to account for them not having gear, abilities etc. Without that early buff they would get wreaked and quit.