UNDAUNTED PROSPEROUS AND TRAINING

Spearblade

WHY?!?!

NewBlacksmurf

Training makes sense

Cazzy

Spearblade wrote: »

WHY?!?!

I know...

pecheckler

I use training more than any trait so shut your 501cp mouth

Asmael

Ah well, didn't take long for my post to be removed.

Anyway, here's what you may (or may not) want to hear:

Hi everyone,

We have an update for you. We will be making the following changes to Trait attainability with the launch of Update 12:
Prosperous and Training will be removed as a valid Trait for all items that drop in Trials
Valid Traits for Trials and Leaderboard rewards are as follows:
Weapons – Infused, Powered, Precise, Defending, Sharpened, Charged, Decisive
Armor – Infused, Divines, Well-Fitted, Reinforced, Sturdy
Items drops in the overland and in dungeons will have a chance of dropping with all available Traits, including Impenetrable

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts with us on this subject. We appreciate how constructive this discussion has been, and the ideas shared.

Ch4mpTW

Here, I'll try and explain both traits as logically as possible.

First is prosperous. Prosperous was added as a filler, due to how I think ZOS wanted a means for players to obtain more gold to purchase things in-game. However, ZOS completely disregarded the fact that "gold farming" in this game isn't like most RPG's. Where as you can go to certain areas, and farm certain mobs which drop higher amounts of gold than standards mobs. Thus making the trait (prosperous) useful, and of high-demand to those in need of coin. Players could simply: Wear 7pcs. of prosperous, go to said area/zone, and make tons of gold farming mobs. BUT! On the flip-side of things, I think players would complain and whine about this. Claiming how dramatic of a negative impact of this would have on the game economy. Thus we end-up here, with a primarily useless trait that only has its usefulness in being required to complete 9-trait crafting.

Second is training. Training gear was added to aid players in the common trend of farming mobs to gain XP toward levels and champion points. Making the "grind" less strenuous with the combination that also veteran ranks were removed. Making players who are fresh to the game or lower than "champion point cap" have a means to "catch-up" in a sense to players of a higher champion point rank. It also aided with leveling alternative characters, as race changing has become a thing. And with more character slots available, people want to have more options available to them (in regards to their classes and play-style). So rather than grind out quests, a player could simply: Wear 7pcs. of training, grab a buddy, go to a CP160 area where they could be scaled-up in a sense, quickly reach Lv.50 without all the hassle, and get right back into the swing of things at max level.

Ultimately where ZOS messed these 2 traits up, was that they allowed items to drop in these traits in "end-game content". Basically becoming nothing but filler for players who needed the piece, but in a different trait. Only to get deconstructed until they get the trait in the piece they required. Or just flat-out deconstruction material upon them being received. Make sense?

Rohamad_Ali

Does prosperous work with picking pockets and liberating chests ?

daemonios

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Does prosperous work with picking pockets and liberating chests ?

You get no gold from pickpocketing, only items for fencing, so prosperous will do nothing for you there. It should work for chests, but since opening them gives you XP, your gear will degrade and you'll have to repair it eventually or lose the bonus from your Preposterous gear. I've seen claims that the gear repair costs are higher than what you could earn from the trait bonus, but can't verify. I'm also not sure if forcing locks rewards you XP - if it doesn't, your gear would take no damage and you wouldn't need to repair so often, but it would eat up a lot of lockpicks since you always lose the lockpick even if you're successful in forcing the lock.

Rohamad_Ali

daemonios wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Does prosperous work with picking pockets and liberating chests ?

You get no gold from pickpocketing, only items for fencing, so prosperous will do nothing for you there. It should work for chests, but since opening them gives you XP, your gear will degrade and you'll have to repair it eventually or lose the bonus from your Preposterous gear. I've seen claims that the gear repair costs are higher than what you could earn from the trait bonus, but can't verify. I'm also not sure if forcing locks rewards you XP - if it doesn't, your gear would take no damage and you wouldn't need to repair so often, but it would eat up a lot of lockpicks since you always lose the lockpick even if you're successful in forcing the lock.

Ok thank you .

Dark_Aether

There is nothing wrong with Training, it just does not have its place in end-game loot table when most people do not need to grind xp anymore.

idk

pecheckler wrote: »

I use training more than any trait so shut your 501cp mouth

Its CP531 now.

While I understand some needing more XP doe gaining CP, training has no place in CP160 gear. It has absolutely zero place in the best raiding gear drops. No self respecting raised would wear training into a trial.

redspecter23

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

pecheckler wrote: »

I use training more than any trait so shut your 501cp mouth

Its CP531 now.

While I understand some needing more XP doe gaining CP, training has no place in CP160 gear. It has absolutely zero place in the best raiding gear drops. No self respecting raised would wear training into a trial.

Agreed. Training has a wonderful place in the game... on crafted gear. If I want training or even prosperous for some reason, I can very easily craft up a set and use it for my farming needs. Nothing in the game that I would be actively farming with these 2 traits would require me to be in endgame gear. I don't need Training Scathng Mage gear (craft Julianos instead). I don't need prosperous Molag Kena helm and shoulder (craft anything else. You don't grind mobs with Kena on).

When I go to a trial, I bring my best in slot gear to make the run as smooth as possible. I don't need prosperous so that 1g drop from the 18 mobs in AA turns into 2g instead. I should be grinding my xp on my own time, outside that trial where the xp is actually meaningful to start with instead of trying to use training to turn my 40xp per mob into 80. Mobs outside that trial give over 400 without training at all.

Transairion

Its CP531 now.

While I understand some needing more XP doe gaining CP, training has no place in CP160 gear. It has absolutely zero place in the best raiding gear drops. No self respecting raised would wear training into a trial.

No self respecting raider would wear anything but Divines unless specifically a build that abuses something that isn't Divines (IE tanks, that one roll-dodge based build). That said, yes Trials shouldn't really drop Training/Propserous and I was under the impression they were being removed from those in Update 12.

Saying it shouldn't drop on anything CP160 is just being a selfish jerk mad about getting bad drops, which you'll always be mad about anyway. There is a LOT of CP160 stuff, not just Monster Helms, and we shouldn't be shoehorned into a few crafted sets just to make use of Training gear. What's the point in having 9 traits in the game if only 6 of them drop?

I don't need prosperous Molag Kena helm and shoulder (craft anything else. You don't grind mobs with Kena on

Says who, the How to Play My Game Police? If someone wants to grind with Training Kena, they can damn well grind with Training Kena.

idk

Transairion wrote: »

Its CP531 now.

While I understand some needing more XP doe gaining CP, training has no place in CP160 gear. It has absolutely zero place in the best raiding gear drops. No self respecting raised would wear training into a trial.

No self respecting raider would wear anything but Divines unless specifically a build that abuses something that isn't Divines (IE tanks, that one roll-dodge based build). That said, yes Trials shouldn't really drop Training/Propserous and I was under the impression they were being removed from those in Update 12.

Saying it shouldn't drop on anything CP160 is just being a selfish jerk mad about getting bad drops, which you'll always be mad about anyway. There is a LOT of CP160 stuff, not just Monster Helms, and we shouldn't be shoehorned into a few crafted sets just to make use of Training gear. What's the point in having 9 traits in the game if only 6 of them drop?

I don't need prosperous Molag Kena helm and shoulder (craft anything else. You don't grind mobs with Kena on

Says who, the How to Play My Game Police? If someone wants to grind with Training Kena, they can damn well grind with Training Kena.

Lol. You clearly missed the point of his message.

As far as that goes you should not be able to grind in training kena because it should not drop with the training trait.

Transairion

Lol. You clearly missed the point of his message.

As far as that goes you should not be able to grind in training kena because it should not drop with the training trait.

And why not? Because it feels bad to get Training? Because you really desperately need it in Sturdy, Reinforced, Well-Fitted? They're entirely RNG based, you'll always get more "bad traits" than Divines/Impen, that's how Zeni keeps you playing.

The point of the message is that because my only Skoria helm is Prosperous, I should never have gotten a Skoria helm to begin with. Well sorry, I'd rather have a bad drop than no drop. I've yet to get a 2nd helm either, it remains my only one after dozens and dozens of runs (my RNG is that bad, apparently).

Not allowed to have Training Necropotence light armor either, because you said so? Or any of the dozens of other CP160 sets considered trash? Stop telling other people how to play their game, we're not your NPC's. If we want Training drops we should be able to get them outside top-tier stuff (IE Trials, where they're being removed).

Don't even try to pretend Veteran Dungeons four randoms can do is some top-tier home of elite PvErs. The majority of the game's CP160 stuff is nowhere near "top tier", it's just max dropped level. Pretty much anything under CP160 is considered worthless unless you're on your first character and not CP160 yet.

altemriel

for the below lvl50 players good, but why on vr levels????why????

daemonios

Transairion wrote: »

What's the point in having 9 traits in the game if only 6 of them drop?

Considering 3 of the 9 traits are utter garbage, I think the problem is a bit more upstream than what drops or doesn't drop...

Training - more XP, viewed by 99% of end-gamers as trash since by that time you'll have leveled your skills. Faster CP grinding is minimal, and forces you to repair after 10 minutes hard grinding mobs or lose the extra XP. MIght as well grind with DPS gear to make it go faster. Verdict: trash.

Preposterous - more gold, same as above. It's possible that the gold gains are entirely offset by the need to always keep the gear repaired or lose the bonus. Verdict: trash.

Nirnhoned - used to be marginally useful, especially for weapons. Since the last changes to traits it's become utterly irrelevant. And we're talking about the hardest trait to research and get trait stones for. A sad example of ZOS development. Verdict: trash.

Then there's the other traits (I'm sticking with armour traits because this post is long enough as it is and I just want to draw attention to ZOS' failings:

Well-Fitted - marginally useful in PvP. No use whatsoever for PvE tanking, healing or DPSing. Imagining for a second that Pve and PvP make up 50% of the playerbase each, this set would appeal to a fraction of 50% of the players. To make matters worse, it's been made the de facto filler trait for end-game PvE drops, with a much much higher drop chance than any other trait. Verdict: near-trash.

Impenetrable - only ever useful in PvP. No use whatsoever in PvE. It really annoys me that ZOS would design combat in PvE and PvP to be so completely different that some traits simply become decon fodder to half the playerbase. Verdict: good for PvP, trash for PvE.

Reinforced - I'd argue this only ever makes sense for heavy armour. Getting a % increase of the already low resistances for medium and especially light armour, while trading away the ability to use a better trait, makes no sense to me. This ties in with the incomprehensible decision to make light armour the worst for both physical AND magical resistance. Still, there are so many ways to max resistances on heavy armour, I feel this trait is far less interesting than it could be even for tanky characters. Verdict: might come in handy on heavy armour, trash on medium/light armour.

Sturdy - limiting its effect to block cost reduction makes it unappealing to anything but tanks in PvE. In PvP there are better traits, considering the importance of crit mitigation and the ability to get block cost reduction from other sources (CP, glyphs, set bonus). Verdict: meh... too limited to be really interesting, though it might be useful for some builds.

Infused - a decent trait that can be used in most builds, especially considering that the meta has been mostly about maximizing one resource above all others. Verdict: pretty decent, would be much better if it weren't for:

Divines - the end-all be-all of armour traits. Choosing your mundus wisely and stacking divines gear allows you to make some freaking powerful builds both in PvP and in PvE. It's not for no reason that Twice-Born Star + Divines is present in many, if not most, end-game PvE builds. Verdict: considering the other traits, divines is absolutely OP.

So what can we take away from this? ZOS should do some actual work rebalancing armour traits. In all honesty, the last revamp was laughable. I'd be ashamed if I were responsible for putting out those changes. In no way did it change the rule of divines in PvE and impenetrable in PvP. With no soft caps/diminishing returns, they need to go the extra mile so that one trait does't come out too far on top of the others, and that's a situation ZOS created for themselves.

Mush55

On crafted gear it was a good idea, on end game drops WTF.

idk

Transairion wrote: »

Lol. You clearly missed the point of his message.

As far as that goes you should not be able to grind in training kena because it should not drop with the training trait.

And why not? Because it feels bad to get Training? Because you really desperately need it in Sturdy, Reinforced, Well-Fitted? They're entirely RNG based, you'll always get more "bad traits" than Divines/Impen, that's how Zeni keeps you playing.

The point of the message is that because my only Skoria helm is Prosperous, I should never have gotten a Skoria helm to begin with. Well sorry, I'd rather have a bad drop than no drop. I've yet to get a 2nd helm either, it remains my only one after dozens and dozens of runs (my RNG is that bad, apparently).

Not allowed to have Training Necropotence light armor either, because you said so? Or any of the dozens of other CP160 sets considered trash? Stop telling other people how to play their game, we're not your NPC's. If we want Training drops we should be able to get them outside top-tier stuff (IE Trials, where they're being removed).

Don't even try to pretend Veteran Dungeons four randoms can do is some top-tier home of elite PvErs. The majority of the game's CP160 stuff is nowhere near "top tier", it's just max dropped level. Pretty much anything under CP160 is considered worthless unless you're on your first character and not CP160 yet.

Again, you clearly miss the point and your logic is, well, not logical.

I am glad you gleefully wear your prosperous helm. Really I am. I am sad, for you, that you prefer prosperous (mathematically the worst trait in the game - proven) over any other trait. See, the first roll is if you get a helm then it's the weight and trait.

Sooo, you would have guaranteed received a better trait of prosperous was not in the drop table. Guaranteed, but I respect you are pleased having the worst trait in the game.

Lord_Draevan

Imagine an Imperial with a full Prosperous set farming gold...

Transairion

Again, you clearly miss the point and your logic is, well, not logical.

I am glad you gleefully wear your prosperous helm. Really I am. I am sad, for you, that you prefer prosperous (mathematically the worst trait in the game - proven) over any other trait. See, the first roll is if you get a helm then it's the weight and trait.

Sooo, you would have guaranteed received a better trait of prosperous was not in the drop table. Guaranteed, but I respect you are pleased having the worst trait in the game.

I'll "gleefully" wear something over nothing, thank you, since according to your loot knowledge (gotta a source for that?) I've gone 50+ rolls without a helm at all. That's a lot, given for every other helm in the game I've got something within first 2-3 runs of the dungeon. But yes, I would've been much happier with Well-Fitted I'll never use... or Reinforced... or Sturdy... I've still got an Impen Monster Helm that I just stare at wishing it would become Prosperous, in fact, because 50% slower armor degradation on a single piece is LOL worthy.

The fact of the matter is, as pointed out above, a LOT of the traits are really damn specific in use. Divines is always going to be better, you'll always be mad at a non-Divines. Demonizing these two is just looking for an easy target, because you know damn well a Sturdy Kena is going to be replaced just as fast. Blame all the bad traits, don't be specific.

Would you rather we went back to the old traits, where anything OTHER than Divines or Infused was worthless for PvE? Because getting the odd Training/Prosperous compared to that mess is amazing.

MarkusP72

Asmael wrote: »

Ah well, didn't take long for my post to be removed.

Anyway, here's what you may (or may not) want to hear:

Hi everyone,

We have an update for you. We will be making the following changes to Trait attainability with the launch of Update 12:
Prosperous and Training will be removed as a valid Trait for all items that drop in Trials
Valid Traits for Trials and Leaderboard rewards are as follows:
Weapons – Infused, Powered, Precise, Defending, Sharpened, Charged, Decisive
Armor – Infused, Divines, Well-Fitted, Reinforced, Sturdy
Items drops in the overland and in dungeons will have a chance of dropping with all available Traits, including Impenetrable

To get it right: In vet dungeons and the undaunted chests I will still have a (feeled) chance of 75 % to get an item with prosperous or training trait?

Transairion

To get it right: In vet dungeons and the undaunted chests I will still have a (feeled) chance of 75 % to get an item with prosperous or training trait?

Yes this hasn't and isn't looking to be changed anytime soon, if that's what you're asking.

Spending 56 gold keys I only got a handful of Training/Prosperous though, so it's all RNG. I did get an unholy amount (15+) Lord Warden shoulders though =/

Holycannoli

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

Imagine an Imperial with a full Prosperous set farming gold...

yeah +1% of 38g dropped from a mob. I don't even think that would be calculated. I seriously think that in most cases the +1% doesn't take effect because it's less than 1g. You're not gonna 38.4g.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Why? To keep the grind alive. People have been complaining about the terrible loot system for 2 years (and yes its pretty terrible). People raged about BOP loot. ZOS then mentions the idea of BOG (bind on group) and everyone thinks this will solve all the issues. Problem is, if they kept the same old loot tables, people would be able to swap gear and get everything in about 5 runs. Take the new dungeons for example, I have run them each less than 5 times and already have the jewelry (which only comes in one trait).

Training and Prosperous became the filler for non jewelry items. It gives the illusiuon that you are getting gear, it also "gets you in the game" so to speak if there is an item set you want to run. From what I can tell, these two make up about 90% of the loot table. They then sprinkle in the few desirable traits for people to get excited about when it drops.

Is the grind better? Probably a little bit, especially if you run with the same group that is willing to trade, but getting your full set of divines is still a pain. I still for example dont have divines gloves of any of the new trial sets. Dont really need them, but the OCD in me wants them. haha.

idk

Transairion wrote: »

Again, you clearly miss the point and your logic is, well, not logical.

I am glad you gleefully wear your prosperous helm. Really I am. I am sad, for you, that you prefer prosperous (mathematically the worst trait in the game - proven) over any other trait. See, the first roll is if you get a helm then it's the weight and trait.

Sooo, you would have guaranteed received a better trait of prosperous was not in the drop table. Guaranteed, but I respect you are pleased having the worst trait in the game.

I'll "gleefully" wear something over nothing, thank you, since according to your loot knowledge (gotta a source for that?) I've gone 50+ rolls without a helm at all. That's a lot, given for every other helm in the game I've got something within first 2-3 runs of the dungeon. But yes, I would've been much happier with Well-Fitted I'll never use... or Reinforced... or Sturdy... I've still got an Impen Monster Helm that I just stare at wishing it would become Prosperous, in fact, because 50% slower armor degradation on a single piece is LOL worthy.

The fact of the matter is, as pointed out above, a LOT of the traits are really damn specific in use. Divines is always going to be better, you'll always be mad at a non-Divines. Demonizing these two is just looking for an easy target, because you know damn well a Sturdy Kena is going to be replaced just as fast. Blame all the bad traits, don't be specific.

Would you rather we went back to the old traits, where anything OTHER than Divines or Infused was worthless for PvE? Because getting the odd Training/Prosperous compared to that mess is amazing.

Did you even read my reply or just want to posh dogma regardless of how the game really works. Your first sentence strongly supports that you your replying without reading. I am Not going to argue with a man blinded by illusions. Cya.

Transairion

Did you even read my reply or just want to posh dogma regardless of how the game really works. Your first sentence strongly supports that you your replying without reading. I am Not going to argue with a man blinded by illusions. Cya.

Given I outright asked for a source (which you very conveniently left out, meaning until someone confirms it it's just an asspull), yes I did read. If you can't counter any points and want to go all 3rd Reich on the playerbase "play my way or GTFO", by all means do so, but ZOS doesn't give a damn about what you think lucky for us. They're not removing Training/Prosperous from anything but Trials, so deal with it and move on like the rest of the playerbase.

And yes, to prove Prosperous is the worst trait in the game someone has to actually wear it to test it. Not a single player has yet, just theorycrafted "because why would I do that, we have no use for facts here!". PvE Impen and Prosperous are both tied for least impactful though, especially since you can farm mobs in broken armor and the set bonuses still function.


Again, would you prefer the old traits? You wanna get Well-Fitted again back when it only reduced freaking Sprint cost? Or Sturdy reduced armor damage only? Or, my god, Exploration which boosted one-time exp for finding a new location? Training and Prosperous are an amazing change from those, stop looking for handouts you're never gonna get 100% Divines drop.

Lord_Draevan

Holycannoli wrote: »

Lord_Draevan wrote: »

Imagine an Imperial with a full Prosperous set farming gold...

yeah +1% of 38g dropped from a mob. I don't even think that would be calculated. I seriously think that in most cases the +1% doesn't take effect because it's less than 1g. You're not gonna 38.4g.

Damn, I'll try not to spend it all in one place!

idk

Transairion wrote: »

Did you even read my reply or just want to posh dogma regardless of how the game really works. Your first sentence strongly supports that you your replying without reading. I am Not going to argue with a man blinded by illusions. Cya.

Given I outright asked for a source (which you very conveniently left out, meaning until someone confirms it it's just an asspull), yes I did read. If you can't counter any points and want to go all 3rd Reich on the playerbase "play my way or GTFO", by all means do so, but ZOS doesn't give a damn about what you think lucky for us. They're not removing Training/Prosperous from anything but Trials, so deal with it and move on like the rest of the playerbase.

And yes, to prove Prosperous is the worst trait in the game someone has to actually wear it to test it. Not a single player has yet, just theorycrafted "because why would I do that, we have no use for facts here!". PvE Impen and Prosperous are both tied for least impactful though, especially since you can farm mobs in broken armor and the set bonuses still function.


Again, would you prefer the old traits? You wanna get Well-Fitted again back when it only reduced freaking Sprint cost? Or Sturdy reduced armor damage only? Or, my god, Exploration which boosted one-time exp for finding a new location? Training and Prosperous are an amazing change from those, stop looking for handouts you're never gonna get 100% Divines drop.

3rd reich. Seriously. And distraction by bringing up the old traits of which some of them were not in the drop table for v16?

Sorry. I truly meant to leave this thread but got such a good laugh.

Transairion

3rd reich. Seriously. And distraction by bringing up the old traits of which some of them were not in the drop table for v16?

Sorry. I truly meant to leave this thread but got such a good laugh.

You're literally demanding Zenimax change how other people can play a game while not effecting you in the least, because you don't like getting certain trait drops. Sounds pretty extreme to me.

Learn to not care about what other people in THEIR GAME and you'll be a lot happier. If I bum about grinding zombies wearing Molag Kena I find it hard to believe it causes you mental anguish and I need to be stopped. And let's assume these are removed... you're going to be back here weeks later demanding Well-Fitted be removed from the loot table as well because who the heck needs to roll dodge that much? And so on, until the only traits left are Divines and Impen. Hooray.

Seriously, if someone wants to use CP160 Training gear, let them. You're demanding they can only use crafted gear because you don't want Training drops. Well too bad for you some people want Training drops.

starkerealm

@Transairion, leave him. He's just antagonizing people.