Coat of Red Mountain set and the continuing disregard for magicka DPS

Carbonised

After several updates favouring stamina dps over magicka dps, and several threads on these forums demonstrating the superiority of stamina dps and stamina in pretty much all regards except being a group healer, the current flavour of the month has now become the Coat of Red Mountain set that was scaled to cp160.

What in the friggin hells made the dev team throw yet another bone to the stamina dps builds, as if they hadn't enough OP toys to play with as it was?

In the recent 3 patches you have added more and more stamina sets, you have upgraded several trial sets to suit stam dps, and you have even added another stam dps monster set as well as new pvp stamina sets. What have you given magicka? Not a single thing worth anything. Even the current 'upgrade' of Silks of the Sun to cp160, every theorycrafter agrees is inferior to your usual Julianos and Skoria/Kena setup. The math has already been done, and no one bothers with Sun set, while Red Mountain now sells for 500k and more. For you also added the set in gold jewels. Where is the golden jewellery for magicka dps?

So you took a set that by right should have been for magicka, you could easily have changed it to suit magicka dps, but instead you changed the bonuses all to stamina and weap power and gave stam dps yet another way to leave magicka in the dirt.

Everyone agrees with this, everyone sees the current dps imbalance in favour of stamina, hells, even people with stam dps that I talk to agree that Red Mountain should have been made a mag set and not stam. There are friggin tanks in my groups doing same DPS as my magDK in perfect gear, due to Red Mountain procs.
What is the reason for your current disregard for magicka dps, @Wrobel ? Do you even realize how friggin annoying it is to see stam builds go crazy over new toys and more power, while my magdk is left behind in gear that's 4 patches and DLCs old? You're literally locking my out of endgame content like vet trials and open world pvp. Who would take a magdk for vet trials when you can get a stam that does 15-20k more DPS? In pvp my magdk gets steamrolled by stam builds with half as much experience and competence, but twice as good numbers due to all the *** you have thrown their way.

Already the whole CP system favours stam over mag, just see how many magdps passives you can find compared to those that are useful for stam. Now you're also throwing set after set after friggin set after stamina dps, while not even bothering giving anything to mags.

Seriously, @Wrobel , with the amount of threads about this on the forums, you owe us an answer. Why is it that my character is reduced to a fisherman and material gatherer while stam dps steamrolls over every content in this game? Stam just burns through every mechanism in your trials and dungeons, while we who deal less dps due to your incompetence have to deal with these mechanisms. Your newest hist dungeons is a prime example of this, where several boss phases don't even trigger because stam are able to burn down bosses way before they initialise, where mag has no possibility to even do nearly those numbers.

Keep silent if you want, @Wrobel , keep ignoring all those who point out the huge imbalances in your game, sure, whatever, but don't blame people who quit on you and find something more interesting to do then. The current state of mag vs stam dps is a joke, a huge friggin joke, and yes, it does make me both annoyed and angry that due to your game designs, I am only able to join in the most demanding endgame content of this game if I drag the overall performance of my group down. How many hardcore trial raiders or pvpers want to put up with someone like that, do you think?

At least offer me a friggin class change in your crown store so I can buy myself out of the sorry misery of a class you have left me with, and join all the other steamrolling stam trains.

The issue at a glance:

- Why is it acceptable that stam dps does anywhere between 35k - 50k dps while magicka struggles to pass 30?
- Why was there a monster set added for stam dps and none for mag?
- Why were several trial sets made extremely useful for stam dps like Viper, Dreugh King and Ophidian, while mag dps got nothing? Elegant is an extremely niche set basically only for overloading sorcs, while Infallible isn't a dps set, but more support/healer and useless outside trials, unlike Viper, Dreugh and Ophidian
- Why was Silks of the Sun nerfed from a % bonus to a flat bonus, thus rendering it useless in comparison with the usual mag dps setup?
- Why was Red Mountain made stam dps and not mag dps? Did you not think there was plenty opportunity for stam dps sets with all of the above I just mentioned?
- Why did last 3 patches/DLC add a large amount of alternatives for stam dps, and nothing viable for mag dps?

Answers, please.

acw37162

Your definition of nothing and my definition of nothing are not even close to the same.

alexkdd99

acw37162 wrote: »

Your definition of nothing and my definition of nothing are not even close to the same.

Care to elaborate? Not saying I agree or disagree with op. Just wanting to use some different sets on my magic characters other than julianos.

leepalmer95

You do realise red mountain always a stam set right?

Are we ignoring sets like amberplasm?

Mag dps had nerineth and skoria as magicka monster sets, what did stamina have?

Didn't silks of the sun used to be 5% flame dmg or something? Is 400 spell dmg < 5% dmg boost? Silks will still be decent for pvp, not everything they change has to revolve around pve.

We also ignoring thieves guild? That patch was 100% magicka, atleast in this patch while stamina is more favoured magicka isn't redundant. There is still plenty in pvp, they can still do pve effectively.

phaseadept

Many magika sets seem to prioritize regen, max, or spell damage. Even then the spell damage on most sets overlap pigeonholing magika dps into one or two cookie cutter builds.

I'd love more variety so a magika user could play with various styles. . .

Minute_Waltz

You should be using TBS on both stam and mag dpses anyway...

Wollust

I mean, stam is obviously superior atm dps wise..

but your bias is just ridiculous.

Carbonised

leepalmer95 wrote: »

You do realise red mountain always a stam set right?

Are we ignoring sets like amberplasm?

Mag dps had nerineth and skoria as magicka monster sets, what did stamina have?

Didn't silks of the sun used to be 5% flame dmg or something? Is 400 spell dmg < 5% dmg boost? Silks will still be decent for pvp, not everything they change has to revolve around pve.

We also ignoring thieves guild? That patch was 100% magicka, atleast in this patch while stamina is more favoured magicka isn't redundant. There is still plenty in pvp, they can still do pve effectively.

- You do realise that Red Mountain had spell damage on it before it was changed to weapon damage, right?
- Yes we are ignoring Amberplasm. Outside situations where recovery matters a great deal, say, pvp, then Amberplasm has no place. And it doesn't do a dps increase compared to your usual best in slot Julianos or TBS. And if you really wanted mag regen, there are better options than 300 from Amberplasm. Stam regen is also useless on a mag dps set.
- Yes I do care about pve when the gap between stam and mag dps is going at 20k+. PvP is another issue, but it has to do with more than just dps, though dps is certainly one factor. If you think throwing a nerfed Silks into pvp is going to change things, then you and I don't really agree.
- Was Thief Guild all about magicka? Let's see, Moondancer set designed for mag DPS, entirely useless bull, it's not even worth it using it in the trials it was made for. Vicious Death. Granted, a set for mag dps, but solely for pvp, useles in pve. And pretty much only as a zerg buster, in 1v1 or small scale battles the 5 bonus is useless. Leki, stam set. Alkosh, stam set. Not the best, but better than Moondancer by a long shot. Marksman, stam set for pvp. Warrior fury, stam set. Syvarras scales, stam set (with poison being boosted by stam CPs). Tava's Favor, stam set (you don't dodge as magicka build). Eternal hunt, yet another stam set. You even managed to sweettalk dear @Wrobel to make the set bonus from magic damage into poison damage, because why not.

Heck, you may even try and get Wrobel to change Red Mountain from flame damage to poison damage, I'm sure he could be persuaded easily.

Carbonised

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

You should be using TBS on both stam and mag dpses anyway...

No, we shouldn't. Pretty much everyone who knows things agree that Juli + will + kena/skoria is best mag DPS setup. TBS only outperforms that setup in trials where you have great support and constant warhorn rotation, otherwise Juli has a slightly better outcome. So there you go.

Wollust wrote:

I mean, stam is obviously superior atm dps wise..

but your bias is just ridiculous.

If stam is "obviously superior atm dps wise" then you have no idea what bias means. Bias is percieving error where there is none, it's not pointing out obvious error.

Your statement is rediculous.

I mean, it's fine to disagree with what I write, but at least I bring facts and statements to the discussion table, you guys bring nothing but your personal and subjective opinion, which I don't really give anything for at all.

leepalmer95

Carbonised wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

You do realise red mountain always a stam set right?

Are we ignoring sets like amberplasm?

Mag dps had nerineth and skoria as magicka monster sets, what did stamina have?

Didn't silks of the sun used to be 5% flame dmg or something? Is 400 spell dmg < 5% dmg boost? Silks will still be decent for pvp, not everything they change has to revolve around pve.

We also ignoring thieves guild? That patch was 100% magicka, atleast in this patch while stamina is more favoured magicka isn't redundant. There is still plenty in pvp, they can still do pve effectively.

- You do realise that Red Mountain had spell damage on it before it was changed to weapon damage, right?
- Yes we are ignoring Amberplasm. Outside situations where recovery matters a great deal, say, pvp, then Amberplasm has no place. And it doesn't do a dps increase compared to your usual best in slot Julianos or TBS. And if you really wanted mag regen, there are better options than 300 from Amberplasm. Stam regen is also useless on a mag dps set.
- Yes I do care about pve when the gap between stam and mag dps is going at 20k+. PvP is another issue, but it has to do with more than just dps, though dps is certainly one factor. If you think throwing a nerfed Silks into pvp is going to change things, then you and I don't really agree.
- Was Thief Guild all about magicka? Let's see, Moondancer set designed for mag DPS, entirely useless bull, it's not even worth it using it in the trials it was made for. Vicious Death. Granted, a set for mag dps, but solely for pvp, useles in pve. And pretty much only as a zerg buster, in 1v1 or small scale battles the 5 bonus is useless. Leki, stam set. Alkosh, stam set. Not the best, but better than Moondancer by a long shot. Marksman, stam set for pvp. Warrior fury, stam set. Syvarras scales, stam set (with poison being boosted by stam CPs). Tava's Favor, stam set (you don't dodge as magicka build). Eternal hunt, yet another stam set. You even managed to sweettalk dear @Wrobel to make the set bonus from magic damage into poison damage, because why not.

Heck, you may even try and get Wrobel to change Red Mountain from flame damage to poison damage, I'm sure he could be persuaded easily.

Red mountain was a medium armour set, it was always a stam set.

Amberplasm is stupidly good for pvp, Not needed in pve as pve is just easy anyway, just stack damage and ignore sustain. But you never know in the boosted trails the fight go on for a while so maybe some regen is needed. A 2/3/4 pure dmg bonus with a regen bonus for both mag/stam regen thats bigger than 2x seperate regen bonus is very very strong.

If the gap is so big just go stamina, does it really matter what useless rotation you spam in the scripted dungeons?

Yes TG was a 100% magicka dlc. In pvp it was all magicka, in pve is was the dlc where walls of elements was buffed. Speaking of VD were was the stamina zerg killing sets + skills? VD was still good in small scale and not useless. If you can kill another person of a set proc it's was worth it.

Tavas is crafted... it gives both regen's so no. It is not just a stamina set. Some people like the 2/3/4 bonus plus mag nb also has dodge chance.

It only made sense for a crafted stamina set''s 5 piece to scale of cp of stamina builds? Why are you even salty about this.

The red mountain change would make sense, a set that only drops in medium armour and therefore is a stamina set scaling off stamina cp.

Minute_Waltz

Carbonised wrote: »

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

You should be using TBS on both stam and mag dpses anyway...

No, we shouldn't. Pretty much everyone who knows things agree that Juli + will + kena/skoria is best mag DPS setup. TBS only outperforms that setup in trials where you have great support and constant warhorn rotation, otherwise Juli has a slightly better outcome. So there you go.

So you are saying you gear your character based on dungeons (which are all of them are easy and a 1% dps loss won't matter) and not trials (every bit of dps matter as well as survivability)?

Well if thats the case then inbalances shouldn't really affect you unless you have problems bringing down bosses in dungeons.. which I suggest you work on your rotation instead of complain about different sets.

Also 2 kena/3 aether is better than 5 VO in pure dps terms, and no one is using willpower nowadays. Might need to get some test done yourself instead of reading old posts.

Carbonised

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

You should be using TBS on both stam and mag dpses anyway...

No, we shouldn't. Pretty much everyone who knows things agree that Juli + will + kena/skoria is best mag DPS setup. TBS only outperforms that setup in trials where you have great support and constant warhorn rotation, otherwise Juli has a slightly better outcome. So there you go.

So you are saying you gear your character based on dungeons (which are all of them are easy and a 1% dps loss won't matter) and not trials (every bit of dps matter as well as survivability)?

Well if thats the case then inbalances shouldn't really affect you unless you have problems bringing down bosses in dungeons.. which I suggest you work on your rotation instead of complain about different sets.

Also 2 kena/3 aether is better than 5 VO in pure dps terms, and no one is using willpower nowadays. Might need to get some test done yourself instead of reading old posts.

Stop derailing my thread with your off topic nonsense, this isnt a discussion on Julianos vs TBS in trials, this is a discussion on mag vs stam dps, especially regarding new and upgraded sets.

Avenias

Carbonised wrote: »

After several updates favouring stamina dps over magicka dps, and several threads on these forums demonstrating the superiority of stamina dps and stamina in pretty much all regards except being a group healer, the current flavour of the month has now become the Coat of Red Mountain set that was scaled to cp160.

What in the friggin hells made the dev team throw yet another bone to the stamina dps builds, as if they hadn't enough OP toys to play with as it was?

In the recent 3 patches you have added more and more stamina sets, you have upgraded several trial sets to suit stam dps, and you have even added another stam dps monster set as well as new pvp stamina sets. What have you given magicka? Not a single thing worth anything. Even the current 'upgrade' of Silks of the Sun to cp160, every theorycrafter agrees is inferior to your usual Julianos and Skoria/Kena setup. The math has already been done, and no one bothers with Sun set, while Red Mountain now sells for 500k and more. For you also added the set in gold jewels. Where is the golden jewellery for magicka dps?

So you took a set that by right should have been for magicka, you could easily have changed it to suit magicka dps, but instead you changed the bonuses all to stamina and weap power and gave stam dps yet another way to leave magicka in the dirt.

Everyone agrees with this, everyone sees the current dps imbalance in favour of stamina, hells, even people with stam dps that I talk to agree that Red Mountain should have been made a mag set and not stam. There are friggin tanks in my groups doing same DPS as my magDK in perfect gear.
What is the reason for your current disregard for magicka dps, @Wrobel ? Do you even realize how friggin annoying it is to see stam builds go crazy over new toys and more power, while my magdk is left behind in gear that's 4 patches and DLCs old? You're literally locking my out of endgame content like vet trials and open world pvp. Who would take a magdk for vet trials when you can get a stam that does 15-20k more DPS? In pvp my magdk gets steamrolled by stam builds with half as much experience and competence, but twice as good numbers due to all the *** you have thrown their way.

Already the whole CP system favours stam over mag, just see how many magdps passives you can find compared to those that are useful for stam. Now you're also throwing set after set after friggin set after stamina dps, while not even bothering giving anything to mags.

Seriously, @Wrobel , with the amount of threads about this on the forums, you owe us an answer. Why is it that my character is reduced to a fisherman and material gatherer while stam dps steamrolls over every content in this game? Stam just burns through every mechanism in your trials and dungeons, while we who deal less dps due to your incompetence have to deal with these mechanisms. Your newest hist dungeons is a prime example of this, where several boss phases don't even trigger because stam are able to burn down bosses way before they initialise, where mag has no possibility to even do nearly those numbers.

Keep silent if you want, @Wrobel , keep ignoring all those who point out the huge imbalances in your game, sure, whatever, but don't blame people who quit on you and find something more interesting to do then. The current state of mag vs stam dps is a joke, a huge friggin joke, and yes, it does make me both annoyed and angry that due to your game designs, I am only able to join in the most demanding endgame content of this game if I drag the overall performance of my group down. How many hardcore trial raiders or pvpers want to put up with someone like that, do you think?

At least offer me a friggin class change in your crown store so I can buy myself out of the sorry misery of a class you have left me with, and join all the other steamrolling stam trains.

The issue at a glance:

- Why is it acceptable that stam dps does anywhere between 35k - 50k dps while magicka struggles to pass 30?
- Why was there a monster set added for stam dps and none for mag?
- Why were several trial sets made extremely useful for stam dps like Viper, Dreugh King and Ophidian, while mag dps got nothing? Elegant is an extremely niche set basically only for overloading sorcs, while Infallible isn't a dps set, but more support/healer and useless outside trials, unlike Viper, Dreugh and Ophidian
- Why was Silks of the Sun nerfed from a % bonus to a flat bonus, thus rendering it useless in comparison with the usual mag dps setup?
- Why was Red Mountain made stam dps and not mag dps? Did you not think there was plenty opportunity for stam dps sets with all of the above I just mentioned?
- Why did last 3 patches/DLC add a large amount of alternatives for stam dps, and nothing viable for mag dps?

Answers, please.

U need to build ur toons based on what wrobel plays, its as simple as that. If he cant beat u, he will nerf u and there is nothing u can do about it.

Minute_Waltz

Carbonised wrote: »

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

You should be using TBS on both stam and mag dpses anyway...

No, we shouldn't. Pretty much everyone who knows things agree that Juli + will + kena/skoria is best mag DPS setup. TBS only outperforms that setup in trials where you have great support and constant warhorn rotation, otherwise Juli has a slightly better outcome. So there you go.

So you are saying you gear your character based on dungeons (which are all of them are easy and a 1% dps loss won't matter) and not trials (every bit of dps matter as well as survivability)?

Well if thats the case then inbalances shouldn't really affect you unless you have problems bringing down bosses in dungeons.. which I suggest you work on your rotation instead of complain about different sets.

Also 2 kena/3 aether is better than 5 VO in pure dps terms, and no one is using willpower nowadays. Might need to get some test done yourself instead of reading old posts.

Stop derailing my thread with your off topic nonsense, this isnt a discussion on Julianos vs TBS in trials, this is a discussion on mag vs stam dps, especially regarding new and upgraded sets.

Lets set it straight then. Are we discussing mag vs stam DPS differential or mag vs stam sets differential?

If you are crying about dps, then you should cry about vma weapon inbalances because thats where it came from.

If you are crying about sets, then im telling you TBS is still bis for both stam and mag in general, and for support sets 5 VO is comparable to 2 kena/3 aether.

Carbonised

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

You should be using TBS on both stam and mag dpses anyway...

No, we shouldn't. Pretty much everyone who knows things agree that Juli + will + kena/skoria is best mag DPS setup. TBS only outperforms that setup in trials where you have great support and constant warhorn rotation, otherwise Juli has a slightly better outcome. So there you go.

So you are saying you gear your character based on dungeons (which are all of them are easy and a 1% dps loss won't matter) and not trials (every bit of dps matter as well as survivability)?

Well if thats the case then inbalances shouldn't really affect you unless you have problems bringing down bosses in dungeons.. which I suggest you work on your rotation instead of complain about different sets.

Also 2 kena/3 aether is better than 5 VO in pure dps terms, and no one is using willpower nowadays. Might need to get some test done yourself instead of reading old posts.

Stop derailing my thread with your off topic nonsense, this isnt a discussion on Julianos vs TBS in trials, this is a discussion on mag vs stam dps, especially regarding new and upgraded sets.

Lets set it straight then. Are we discussing mag vs stam DPS differential or mag vs stam sets differential?

If you are crying about dps, then you should cry about vma weapon inbalances because thats where it came from.

If you are crying about sets, then im telling you TBS is still bis for both stam and mag in general, and for support sets 5 VO is comparable to 2 kena/3 aether.

I am aware of the weapon imbalance. That is also another issue I could have mentioned. Both Maelstrom weapons being OP for stam, and melee weapons in general being much better than destro staff. Destro staff is useless in every single way to generate DPS, even my class AOE and class 'dps' skill aka' the wet noodle', do more dps than destro staff.

But you know, throwing set after set after stam builds isn't exactly mitigating any of that difference.

Like someone said earlier up in this thread, with stam you have a wide possibility of setups to try out and build upon, as mag dps you're locked in stacking up spell damage/spell crit via Juli or TBS.

And just so you know, there are other things in this game that requires good dps. Vet trials isn't the only one, even if you live and breathe in vet trials. Achieving perfect runs in vet IC dungeons and vet Hist dungeons is still dependant on superior DPS, and DPS burst is also a large factor in pvp.

Minute_Waltz

Carbonised wrote: »

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

You should be using TBS on both stam and mag dpses anyway...

No, we shouldn't. Pretty much everyone who knows things agree that Juli + will + kena/skoria is best mag DPS setup. TBS only outperforms that setup in trials where you have great support and constant warhorn rotation, otherwise Juli has a slightly better outcome. So there you go.

So you are saying you gear your character based on dungeons (which are all of them are easy and a 1% dps loss won't matter) and not trials (every bit of dps matter as well as survivability)?

Well if thats the case then inbalances shouldn't really affect you unless you have problems bringing down bosses in dungeons.. which I suggest you work on your rotation instead of complain about different sets.

Also 2 kena/3 aether is better than 5 VO in pure dps terms, and no one is using willpower nowadays. Might need to get some test done yourself instead of reading old posts.

Stop derailing my thread with your off topic nonsense, this isnt a discussion on Julianos vs TBS in trials, this is a discussion on mag vs stam dps, especially regarding new and upgraded sets.

Lets set it straight then. Are we discussing mag vs stam DPS differential or mag vs stam sets differential?

If you are crying about dps, then you should cry about vma weapon inbalances because thats where it came from.

If you are crying about sets, then im telling you TBS is still bis for both stam and mag in general, and for support sets 5 VO is comparable to 2 kena/3 aether.

I am aware of the weapon imbalance. That is also another issue I could have mentioned. Both Maelstrom weapons being OP for stam, and melee weapons in general being much better than destro staff. Destro staff is useless in every single way to generate DPS, even my class AOE and class 'dps' skill aka' the wet noodle', do more dps than destro staff.

But you know, throwing set after set after stam builds isn't exactly mitigating any of that difference.

Like someone said earlier up in this thread, with stam you have a wide possibility of setups to try out and build upon, as mag dps you're locked in stacking up spell damage via Juli or TBS.

And just so you know, there are other things in this game that requires good dps. Vet trials isn't the only one, even if your characters might have hrown a beard there already. Achieving perfect runs in vet IC dungeons and vet Hist dungeons is still dependant on superior DPS, and DPS burst is also a large factor in pvp.

There is fundamental difference between mag and stam dps gameplay, without considering dps numbers magicka is definitely more flexible in their sets. Dk - sun set, nb - scathing mage, sorc - elegant etc.

For stam, it doesnt matter if you use viper/RM/TBS etc, as long you have vma dw/bow you can pull 30k dps naked (exaggerating here but you get my point). But then again you are farming 3 vma weapons instead of 1.
(Unless you are NB, which you can still pull 40K without vma)

And lets be honest, if RM is changed to magicka, proc based on class skill instead of weapon since magicka only use ele blockade and maybe force pulse in dps parse, would you replace your juli/tbs in your dungeon/trials?


Edit: If I was going for no death in new dungeons id still use tbs over juli for extra health and stam. For speed runs tbs over juli won't make or break it, same goes for vma flawless etc.

Wollust

I don't even know why you're making such a fuss about those sets. BiS is still TBS. For both magicka and stamina (for trials at least). I still haven't seen a DPS parse from Red Mountain. Only hearsay so far. And Red Mountain was always meant as a stamina set. It is medium. It was from a time where spell/weapon damage wasn't seperated like these days.

Is stamina pulling ahead of magicka? Yes by a lot, not disagreeing with that. Same how magicka used to pull much more while stamina was mostly non existent for the first year and a half of the game. And it should be adressed. But those sets you mention? They aren't the issue. Minor Slayer and TBS come for both mag and stam. Can't speak about unfair here imo.
And well, if you can't reach in 30k with a MagDK, that's your own fault. The magDKs in my guild still pull pretty good numbers.

Carbonised

Wollust wrote: »

I don't even know why you're making such a fuss about those sets. BiS is still TBS. For both magicka and stamina (for trials at least). I still haven't seen a DPS parse from Red Mountain. Only hearsay so far. And Red Mountain was always meant as a stamina set. It is medium. It was from a time where spell/weapon damage wasn't seperated like these days.

Is stamina pulling ahead of magicka? Yes by a lot, not disagreeing with that. Same how magicka used to pull much more while stamina was mostly non existent for the first year and a half of the game. And it should be adressed. But those sets you mention? They aren't the issue. Minor Slayer and TBS come for both mag and stam. Can't speak about unfair here imo.
And well, if you can't reach in 30k with a MagDK, that's your own fault. The magDKs in my guild still pull pretty good numbers.

Since you basically agree about the imbalance, and even write that it should be adressed, why the hell do you kep bashing on my post instead of just agreeing and leave it at that.

Also, whenever this issue comes up, someone always mentions 'well magicka used to rule' as if that was some kind of arguement. I wasn't here when magicka had its glory days, and is this really the sort of balance a game should strive after? half a year where magicka rules and stam is useless, then change everything upside down and suddenly mag is inferior and stam the upperdogs by far? Sorry but that's not a game I care to play. Finding at least some sembleance of balance between mag and stam should be a minium requirement of the combat design team.

And yes, the sets are an issue in this general tendency of increasing dps for stamina builds.

peniku8

Carbonised wrote: »

Minute_Waltz wrote: »

You should be using TBS on both stam and mag dpses anyway...

No, we shouldn't. Pretty much everyone who knows things agree that Juli + will + kena/skoria is best mag DPS setup. TBS only outperforms that setup in trials where you have great support and constant warhorn rotation, otherwise Juli has a slightly better outcome. So there you go.

So... you favour having higher dps with bad support over topping out with good support, which is basically the only real occasion where 5% more or less dps actually matters?
I mean, for the msa Julainos is better, but who cares about 5% more dps in 4 man content or bad trial groups

but yea, I tend to agree with you, I'd really love to see some new strong sets for magicka to compete with stam dps (maybe not the same dps since it will be ranged but atm we have a big gap)

Xvorg

Carbonised wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

You do realise red mountain always a stam set right?

Are we ignoring sets like amberplasm?

Mag dps had nerineth and skoria as magicka monster sets, what did stamina have?

Didn't silks of the sun used to be 5% flame dmg or something? Is 400 spell dmg < 5% dmg boost? Silks will still be decent for pvp, not everything they change has to revolve around pve.

We also ignoring thieves guild? That patch was 100% magicka, atleast in this patch while stamina is more favoured magicka isn't redundant. There is still plenty in pvp, they can still do pve effectively.

- You do realise that Red Mountain had spell damage on it before it was changed to weapon damage, right?
- Yes we are ignoring Amberplasm. Outside situations where recovery matters a great deal, say, pvp, then Amberplasm has no place. And it doesn't do a dps increase compared to your usual best in slot Julianos or TBS. And if you really wanted mag regen, there are better options than 300 from Amberplasm. Stam regen is also useless on a mag dps set.
- Yes I do care about pve when the gap between stam and mag dps is going at 20k+. PvP is another issue, but it has to do with more than just dps, though dps is certainly one factor. If you think throwing a nerfed Silks into pvp is going to change things, then you and I don't really agree.
- Was Thief Guild all about magicka? Let's see, Moondancer set designed for mag DPS, entirely useless bull, it's not even worth it using it in the trials it was made for. Vicious Death. Granted, a set for mag dps, but solely for pvp, useles in pve. And pretty much only as a zerg buster, in 1v1 or small scale battles the 5 bonus is useless. Leki, stam set. Alkosh, stam set. Not the best, but better than Moondancer by a long shot. Marksman, stam set for pvp. Warrior fury, stam set. Syvarras scales, stam set (with poison being boosted by stam CPs). Tava's Favor, stam set (you don't dodge as magicka build). Eternal hunt, yet another stam set. You even managed to sweettalk dear @Wrobel to make the set bonus from magic damage into poison damage, because why not.

Heck, you may even try and get Wrobel to change Red Mountain from flame damage to poison damage, I'm sure he could be persuaded easily.

What about Elegance? That one traded wpn dmg for spell dmg, right?

SienneYviete

This thread doesn't make sense there is plenty of diversity atm regarding stam v magicka dps sets, tbs, julianos, infallible aether, moondancer, elegant and stam having tbs, hundings, night mothers, vicous ophidian and alkosh.

Tbh red mountain is not even close to the above stam sets I would 100% rather someone use one of the above than red mountain. The only difference and one that actually brought stam dps back from the dead was maelstrom weapons. And really a magicka dps doesn't even need a sharpened maelstrom inferno to do ridiculous dps where as these weapons are almost essential on a stam dps to get the numbers they do. We are actually in a pretty good place right now with set diversity the only thing I would like to see is the masters weapons buffed to provide equality to their vma counterparts.

MaxwellC

@Carbonised Lol it's hardly a bone at all the damage the set provides is flame damage which isn't scaled by the mighty passive we stamina builds utilize. Please tell me if I missed something because as of now this set isn't anywhere better than viper sting, I've seen a test post about it but regardless viper is way better than this set especially since it gives up one of its traits for spell damage (third piece gives spell damage) what Stam DPS would want this I'd like to know.

leepalmer95

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

@Carbonised Lol it's hardly a bone at all the damage the set provides is flame damage which isn't scaled by the mighty passive we stamina builds utilize. Please tell me if I missed something because as of now this set isn't anywhere better than viper sting, I've seen a test post about it but regardless viper is way better than this set especially since it gives up one of its traits for spell damage (third piece gives spell damage) what Stam DPS would want this I'd like to know.

The spell dmg got changed too max stamina i believe.

Wollust

Carbonised wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

I don't even know why you're making such a fuss about those sets. BiS is still TBS. For both magicka and stamina (for trials at least). I still haven't seen a DPS parse from Red Mountain. Only hearsay so far. And Red Mountain was always meant as a stamina set. It is medium. It was from a time where spell/weapon damage wasn't seperated like these days.

Is stamina pulling ahead of magicka? Yes by a lot, not disagreeing with that. Same how magicka used to pull much more while stamina was mostly non existent for the first year and a half of the game. And it should be adressed. But those sets you mention? They aren't the issue. Minor Slayer and TBS come for both mag and stam. Can't speak about unfair here imo.
And well, if you can't reach in 30k with a MagDK, that's your own fault. The magDKs in my guild still pull pretty good numbers.

Since you basically agree about the imbalance, and even write that it should be adressed, why the hell do you kep bashing on my post instead of just agreeing and leave it at that.

Also, whenever this issue comes up, someone always mentions 'well magicka used to rule' as if that was some kind of arguement. I wasn't here when magicka had its glory days, and is this really the sort of balance a game should strive after? half a year where magicka rules and stam is useless, then change everything upside down and suddenly mag is inferior and stam the upperdogs by far? Sorry but that's not a game I care to play. Finding at least some sembleance of balance between mag and stam should be a minium requirement of the combat design team.

And yes, the sets are an issue in this general tendency of increasing dps for stamina builds.

Because I don't agree with most of the things you actually say. I agree that stam DPS is outperforming magicka DPS. That's true. But I don't agree that there is a tendency to increase stam DPS with those sets released and neither do I agree that only stamina is getting stuff while magicka is left out. That's simply not true.

Gilliamtherogue

Carbonised wrote: »

an buy myself out of the sorry misery of a class you have left me with, and join all the other steamrolling stam trains.

The issue at a glance:

- Why is it acceptable that stam dps does anywhere between 35k - 50k dps while magicka struggles to pass 30?
- Why was there a monster set added for stam dps and none for mag?
- Why were several trial sets made extremely useful for stam dps like Viper, Dreugh King and Ophidian, while mag dps got nothing? Elegant is an extremely niche set basically only for overloading sorcs, while Infallible isn't a dps set, but more support/healer and useless outside trials, unlike Viper, Dreugh and Ophidian
- Why was Silks of the Sun nerfed from a % bonus to a flat bonus, thus rendering it useless in comparison with the usual mag dps setup?
- Why was Red Mountain made stam dps and not mag dps? Did you not think there was plenty opportunity for stam dps sets with all of the above I just mentioned?
- Why did last 3 patches/DLC add a large amount of alternatives for stam dps, and nothing viable for mag dps?

Answers, please.

-Casters are nearing 40k DPS when properly played. True, there is a damage gap, but it's because Casters operate much more efficiently in the game's hardest difficulties. HM AA, HRC, and MoL all VASTLY favor caster roles as opposed to stamina. Stamina also is bound to melee range, and if you have too many melee classes in a fight, you're doomed (see AA, MoL). The easily accessible self healing, resource management, and overall safety makes them versatile. The damage gap also comes from a large excess of stamina based enabling sets that sacrifice self DPS for the benefit of the group (Night mother's, Sunderflame, Morag Tong, etc). Without these sets, Stamina is LEAGUES behind caster. The only time stamina builds are pulling 50k+ is when there's 3 other stamina builds all in the group pulling ~40k because they're running support sets.

-Nerien'eth and Valkyn Skoria already favor caster playstyles since they synergize with the Champion Point system for caster builds (ele expert, penetration, etc) while Stamina only recently obtained Spawn of Mephala. Molag Kena also favors caster builds since until the resource increase patch, they could indefinitely maintain the proc without running dry thanks to the absurdly high amount of sources of Magicka management in group play. Also Maw of the Infernal is likely the worst monster set in the game, alongside Bogdan's, leaving it null in the point of stamina based sets.

-Druegh King is hardly a good stamina set, giving a useless buff that is obtainable on other more efficient sources in the game. Viper also is also extremely lack luster when compared to VO in terms of damage and overall effectiveness, nullifying that as well. Also, Elegant niche? Infal isn't a DPS set? Elegant in BiS for both Sorc and DK running the new hidden OP heavy attack build, pulling 100k+ AoE DPS and steadily pulling 30k+ on single target fights by doing nothing but holding left click. Put on Infal and Elegant with a Lightning staff, and hold left click in a pull with 2 or more adds and what how absurdly strong it is, while giving the entire group 8% DPS. To put that into perspective, most end game raid groups are pulling a collective 250k+ DPS, meaning Infal is enabling an additional 20k DPS.

-Silks of the Sun was just barely BiS in its previous iteration because it was stacking multiplicatively with other damage amps, but was almost beat by 4 piece crit bonus sets. The 400 SD scaling is still incredibly powerful, but the reason the set isn't used in PvE anymore is because it has no crit bonuses, and the meta of PvE is all about crit and crit hit damage. Sun still works very well in PvP, where raw damage is often preferred.

-Red Mountain was made in the days prior to the CP system, and still favored stamina builds since 3 out of the 4 bonuses fit into stamina builds (Wep damage, wep crit, and % chance proc off WEAPON attacks). It's not so much it was made for stam, as it was moreso fixed to fit into how this game works now with no soft caps and a CP system.

-3 Past DLC's? Are we just going to forget about the cancer that was the Thieves Guild patch? Tons of nerfs to stamina builds that left them completely unplayable in trials, while casters ran amok with infinite resources and proxy det. DBH finally started to bridge the gap between the play styles and now each role has distinct advantages and disadvantages. While I agree stamina is over performing in PvP opposed to caster, in PvE stamina only wins in low damage situations that allow you to blow through mechanics, which all of the new trials no longer allow. ZoS has started a new trend with PvE in general that has made the full glass cannon playstyle very very inefficient, as burning and ignoring mechanics are hardly doable in most circumstances.

quadraxis666

what an amazing...ly tearful wall of text. call a whaaambulance!

reclaimervii.sierra117ub17_ESO

leepalmer95 wrote: »

You do realise red mountain always a stam set right?

Are we ignoring sets like amberplasm?

Mag dps had nerineth and skoria as magicka monster sets, what did stamina have?

Didn't silks of the sun used to be 5% flame dmg or something? Is 400 spell dmg < 5% dmg boost? Silks will still be decent for pvp, not everything they change has to revolve around pve.

We also ignoring thieves guild? That patch was 100% magicka, atleast in this patch while stamina is more favoured magicka isn't redundant. There is still plenty in pvp, they can still do pve effectively.

Silks of the Sun is only good for DKs........ Kena isnt as good as it use to be (on top of if it already giving you weapon dmg) Skoria as lower chance of procing and gives you extra health so yeah and amberplasm really lol like that set will make your dps stronger. I play both stam and magika but i stopped playing most if not all my magika builds for dps now ZOS clearly doesnt care

reclaimervii.sierra117ub17_ESO

quadraxis666 wrote: »

what an amazing...ly tearful wall of text. call a whaaambulance!

dat 666 edgy name bro

reclaimervii.sierra117ub17_ESO

They just need to balance both playstyles Playing Magika in PVP and in PVE are just so boring now

susmitds

It is perfectly acceptable for magicka to have lesser maximum DPS than stamina. After all, healers are only magicka and tanking is almost totally magicka dominated. In fact, magicka also gets much higher utility. If you could also deal the same DPS as a magicka user as well, then what point would be there to play stamina at all?

susmitds

Carbonised wrote: »

- Why is it acceptable that stam dps does anywhere between 35k - 50k dps while magicka struggles to pass 30?
- Why was there a monster set added for stam dps and none for mag?
- Why were several trial sets made extremely useful for stam dps like Viper, Dreugh King and Ophidian, while mag dps got nothing? Elegant is an extremely niche set basically only for overloading sorcs, while Infallible isn't a dps set, but more support/healer and useless outside trials, unlike Viper, Dreugh and Ophidian.

1) First of all, magicka does not struggle to pass 30k. If you are struggling, it is your fault to begin with. Our healers crosses 25k while actively healing and usually has 30k+ DPS. It is easier to pass 30k on magicka than on stamina as the rotation is much harder and unlike magicka, stamina DPS is non-existent without vMA weapons.
Nextly, all the Stamina DPS is in Melee so it is not consistent. Half of the new upscaled trials as well the new dungeons prefer ranged DPS than melee thanks to close-range one-shot mechanics. If ranged got the same DPS, there would be no point going melee.
Also magicka gets to be healers and far better tanks. If they could get the same damage potential, why would anyone bother to go stamina?
2) Are you forgetting Nerien'eth, Valkyn Skoria?
3) Infallible Aether, Necropotence, Silks of the sun are not good enough?

In that context, let me ask you,

1) How is it fair that stamina is totally blocked out utility roles?
2) You can cross 70k+ Magicka, but why is 40k the limit for stamina?
3) What made you ever think Red Mountain was rightfully a magicka set?