The exponential stacking penalty cost of Bolt Escape...

Bryanonymous · August 2016

O.K. So you want to make spamming an ability have consequences... Why has this not been done to any other ability in the game? Whatever... So we pay twice as much the second cast, but that's not all... Third cast and now you're paying four times as much. Fourth cast, eight times as much... Sure, your game, your rules, but if balance is your intent, then how about add this type of spam penalty to every class.

susmitds · August 2016

DODGE also has it. So all classes are penalized.

Bryanonymous · August 2016

susmitds wrote: »

DODGE also has it. So all classes are penalized.

Hmm, I never noticed. Still, dodge is not a class specific ability. I would just like to see some consistency in how they choose to dictate their rules to each type of player. If a Sorcerers useful escape has a spam penalty, then why are other classes not penalized on their useful abilities? And the exponential increase is just overkill.

Vangy · August 2016

Bryanonymous wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

DODGE also has it. So all classes are penalized.

Hmm, I never noticed. Still, dodge is not a class specific ability. I would just like to see some consistency in how they choose to dictate their rules to each type of player. If a Sorcerers useful escape has a spam penalty, then why are other classes not penalized on their useful abilities? And the exponential increase is just overkill.

Well... Most defensive abilities cant be spammed.. Or rather there is no point spamming them. For eg:

1. Wings for the DK ( reflects 4 projectiles over 4 seconds was it?... So spamming this before it runs out is a waste of mana).
2. Sheilds such as hardened/annulemt --> recasting before they run out is a waste unless you expect some insane damage and you want to refresh timer. So no point in spamming them.
3. Cloak --> no point in spamming it. Use it when it runs out or if u get spotted.
4. Well... Templar heals are used when u need healing.. and tbh heals arent really defensive abilities in my playbook... more of sustain.
5. doge roll --> not class specific but penalised nonetheless
6. Block --> not class specific but penalised nonetheless

So im curious as to what defensive abilities you want to make exponentially cost-increase for spamming as nothing comes to my mind? Bolt escape is one of those abilities that is defensive and CAN be spammed for great benefit in positioning/getting away.... Gap closers dont have an increasing cost cos they take you into danger and you cannot control where you go I guess.

Bryanonymous · August 2016

Vangy wrote: »

Bryanonymous wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

DODGE also has it. So all classes are penalized.

Hmm, I never noticed. Still, dodge is not a class specific ability. I would just like to see some consistency in how they choose to dictate their rules to each type of player. If a Sorcerers useful escape has a spam penalty, then why are other classes not penalized on their useful abilities? And the exponential increase is just overkill.

Well... Most defensive abilities cant be spammed.. Or rather there is no point spamming them. For eg:

1. Wings for the DK ( reflects 4 projectiles over 4 seconds was it?... So spamming this before it runs out is a waste of mana).
2. Sheilds such as hardened/annulemt --> recasting before they run out is a waste unless you expect some insane damage and you want to refresh timer. So no point in spamming them.
3. Cloak --> no point in spamming it. Use it when it runs out or if u get spotted.
4. Well... Templar heals are used when u need healing.. and tbh heals arent really defensive abilities in my playbook... more of sustain.
5. doge roll --> not class specific but penalised nonetheless
6. Block --> not class specific but penalised nonetheless

So im curious as to what defensive abilities you want to make exponentially cost-increase for spamming as nothing comes to my mind? Bolt escape is one of those abilities that is defensive and CAN be spammed for great benefit in positioning/getting away.... Gap closers dont have an increasing cost cos they take you into danger and you cannot control where you go I guess.

Start with all heals, if you want to play it like that. Then take it to every single other ability, so that all spamming has said penalty. My point is, have some consistancy. And of course healing is defensive. It's something you use to try to stay alive. That's called defense.

Brutusmax1mus · August 2016

Bryanonymous wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Bryanonymous wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

DODGE also has it. So all classes are penalized.

Hmm, I never noticed. Still, dodge is not a class specific ability. I would just like to see some consistency in how they choose to dictate their rules to each type of player. If a Sorcerers useful escape has a spam penalty, then why are other classes not penalized on their useful abilities? And the exponential increase is just overkill.

Well... Most defensive abilities cant be spammed.. Or rather there is no point spamming them. For eg:

1. Wings for the DK ( reflects 4 projectiles over 4 seconds was it?... So spamming this before it runs out is a waste of mana).
2. Sheilds such as hardened/annulemt --> recasting before they run out is a waste unless you expect some insane damage and you want to refresh timer. So no point in spamming them.
3. Cloak --> no point in spamming it. Use it when it runs out or if u get spotted.
4. Well... Templar heals are used when u need healing.. and tbh heals arent really defensive abilities in my playbook... more of sustain.
5. doge roll --> not class specific but penalised nonetheless
6. Block --> not class specific but penalised nonetheless

So im curious as to what defensive abilities you want to make exponentially cost-increase for spamming as nothing comes to my mind? Bolt escape is one of those abilities that is defensive and CAN be spammed for great benefit in positioning/getting away.... Gap closers dont have an increasing cost cos they take you into danger and you cannot control where you go I guess.

Start with all heals, if you want to play it like that. Then take it to every single other ability, so that all spamming has said penalty. My point is, have some consistancy. And of course healing is defensive. It's something you use to try to stay alive. That's called defense.

I'm glad you have nothing to do with balance. Let's break healing all together!

Bryanonymous · August 2016

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

Bryanonymous wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Bryanonymous wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

DODGE also has it. So all classes are penalized.

Hmm, I never noticed. Still, dodge is not a class specific ability. I would just like to see some consistency in how they choose to dictate their rules to each type of player. If a Sorcerers useful escape has a spam penalty, then why are other classes not penalized on their useful abilities? And the exponential increase is just overkill.

Well... Most defensive abilities cant be spammed.. Or rather there is no point spamming them. For eg:

1. Wings for the DK ( reflects 4 projectiles over 4 seconds was it?... So spamming this before it runs out is a waste of mana).
2. Sheilds such as hardened/annulemt --> recasting before they run out is a waste unless you expect some insane damage and you want to refresh timer. So no point in spamming them.
3. Cloak --> no point in spamming it. Use it when it runs out or if u get spotted.
4. Well... Templar heals are used when u need healing.. and tbh heals arent really defensive abilities in my playbook... more of sustain.
5. doge roll --> not class specific but penalised nonetheless
6. Block --> not class specific but penalised nonetheless

So im curious as to what defensive abilities you want to make exponentially cost-increase for spamming as nothing comes to my mind? Bolt escape is one of those abilities that is defensive and CAN be spammed for great benefit in positioning/getting away.... Gap closers dont have an increasing cost cos they take you into danger and you cannot control where you go I guess.

Start with all heals, if you want to play it like that. Then take it to every single other ability, so that all spamming has said penalty. My point is, have some consistancy. And of course healing is defensive. It's something you use to try to stay alive. That's called defense.

I'm glad you have nothing to do with balance. Let's break healing all together!

That's the whole point. Break them all if you're going to break one. It's all just opinion anyways, but having a four second timer and an exponential penalty sucks, and if sorcerer has to deal with it, let everyone else too.

CasNation · August 2016

They really need to implement the timer reset if you hit someone with the ability....the whole point of the increasing cost was to keep sorcs from using streak forever to escape. They should change it so that a sorc can use it better offensively.

Jsmalls · August 2016

Vangy wrote: »

Bryanonymous wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

DODGE also has it. So all classes are penalized.

Hmm, I never noticed. Still, dodge is not a class specific ability. I would just like to see some consistency in how they choose to dictate their rules to each type of player. If a Sorcerers useful escape has a spam penalty, then why are other classes not penalized on their useful abilities? And the exponential increase is just overkill.

Well... Most defensive abilities cant be spammed.. Or rather there is no point spamming them. For eg:

1. Wings for the DK ( reflects 4 projectiles over 4 seconds was it?... So spamming this before it runs out is a waste of mana).
2. Sheilds such as hardened/annulemt --> recasting before they run out is a waste unless you expect some insane damage and you want to refresh timer. So no point in spamming them.
3. Cloak --> no point in spamming it. Use it when it runs out or if u get spotted.
4. Well... Templar heals are used when u need healing.. and tbh heals arent really defensive abilities in my playbook... more of sustain.
5. doge roll --> not class specific but penalised nonetheless
6. Block --> not class specific but penalised nonetheless

So im curious as to what defensive abilities you want to make exponentially cost-increase for spamming as nothing comes to my mind? Bolt escape is one of those abilities that is defensive and CAN be spammed for great benefit in positioning/getting away.... Gap closers dont have an increasing cost cos they take you into danger and you cannot control where you go I guess.

1. When targeted by multiple attackers wings can and is most definitely spammed by mDKs.
2. Does not return damage, does not change locations, and i think has been addressed by the 70% duration nerf. Agreed.
3. No point in spamming it? Are you kidding? Have you ever played against a mNB? I'll pull them out of stealth 6 to 7 times in a row, and they can just continuously reapply it. I think this ability is the first one that should receive the Bolt escape treatment.
4. Healing doesn't really need to be touched, you can counter it with defile (even if as a Sorc it's virtually unavailable to me).
5. This nullifies all incoming damage, changes position, causes buffs from gear/CP, removes roots, and the list goes on, short of being a Templar there isn't much you can do about someone spamming dodge roll.
6. Assuming you mean 0 stamina recovery while blocking, perma blocking was cancerous and needed to go. Otherwise there is no increased stamina usage based on the duration you hold block.

What aggravates me the most is NBs can use their escape ability to ESCAPE an unfavorable situation. But when Sorcs use BOLT ESCAPE to ehm ESCAPE a huge outrage occurred and it was nerfed. Cuz you know, balance.

Vaoh · August 2016

The Story of Magicka Sorcs

Once upon a time, the Sorcerer class relied on high mobility to survive and maneuver thanks to Bolt Escape.

Conjured Ward (and damage shields in general) were minor. Shieldstacking wasn't ever an issue because they barely shrugged off any damage. Mobility made up for both this and the lack of a good, direct heal. If you got caught, you were dead. Made for a fun and interesting playstyle.

Then came the great shift from high mobility to shieldstacking. Bolt Escape, the prime skill of Magicka Sorcerers, was siginificantly nerfed with a huge stacking cost because of typical QQ

Sometime in-between, they also bugged out Bolt Escape so you lose all forward momentum upon casting it. This makes it so if you are running up a slope, it barely takes you anywhere. If running down a slope (however slight) you will come to a halt midair and slowly fall until you again contact the ground, wasting lots of time. In the past, you would travel forward after casting it because you logically had momentum while moving. (one morph was also given a fat duration nerf but it's not a big deal)

To compensate with this nerf, Shieldstacking and camping in Daedric Mines became a thing. Sorcs went from mobile glass cannons to magical turrets that could soak in a ton of damage at the expense of everything else. It was extremely boring but also effective since shields became powerful. So shields were complained about.....

Shields finally got the nerf hammer with Dark Brotherhood. Duration decreased from 20sec to 6sec. Worst type of nerf possible. Surge was simultaneously nerfed to no longer allow any sort of decent healing for PvP.

So what is it ZOS wants Magicka Sorcs to do? There is no vision for the class.

As of now, there have been two main ways for a Magicka Sorc to survive so far:
• High mobility, lower threshold for damage they can take
• Shieldstack everything coming your way

So yeah.

Since the shield nerf, something happened to Magicka Sorcerers....definitely a big mystery. Ready for it?...

They disappeared

There are almost no Magicka Sorcs left in Cyrodiil because you have to stack shields every 6 seconds or less and camp mines now, which is boring. Everything coming your way snares or roots you, and Bolt Escape can become detrimental to your Magicka if cast more than 3-4 times.

Maybe it's time they reverted Sorcs to their old style of play.
• Weaken shields, increase duration to 20sec again
• Un-nerf Bolt Escape

Beardimus · August 2016

That's interesting ^ I much prefer a mobile way of playing as a sorc and never thought of the correlation in how the stacking came about. Interesting!

Though I don't think the 6 sec thing is an issue in PvP, they normally down in 2/3!. PvE yes, its annoying

Barlthump · August 2016

jyates214b14_ESO wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Bryanonymous wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

DODGE also has it. So all classes are penalized.

Hmm, I never noticed. Still, dodge is not a class specific ability. I would just like to see some consistency in how they choose to dictate their rules to each type of player. If a Sorcerers useful escape has a spam penalty, then why are other classes not penalized on their useful abilities? And the exponential increase is just overkill.

Well... Most defensive abilities cant be spammed.. Or rather there is no point spamming them. For eg:

1. Wings for the DK ( reflects 4 projectiles over 4 seconds was it?... So spamming this before it runs out is a waste of mana).
2. Sheilds such as hardened/annulemt --> recasting before they run out is a waste unless you expect some insane damage and you want to refresh timer. So no point in spamming them.
3. Cloak --> no point in spamming it. Use it when it runs out or if u get spotted.
4. Well... Templar heals are used when u need healing.. and tbh heals arent really defensive abilities in my playbook... more of sustain.
5. doge roll --> not class specific but penalised nonetheless
6. Block --> not class specific but penalised nonetheless

So im curious as to what defensive abilities you want to make exponentially cost-increase for spamming as nothing comes to my mind? Bolt escape is one of those abilities that is defensive and CAN be spammed for great benefit in positioning/getting away.... Gap closers dont have an increasing cost cos they take you into danger and you cannot control where you go I guess.

1. When targeted by multiple attackers wings can and is most definitely spammed by mDKs.
2. Does not return damage, does not change locations, and i think has been addressed by the 70% duration nerf. Agreed.
3. No point in spamming it? Are you kidding? Have you ever played against a mNB? I'll pull them out of stealth 6 to 7 times in a row, and they can just continuously reapply it. I think this ability is the first one that should receive the Bolt escape treatment.
4. Healing doesn't really need to be touched, you can counter it with defile (even if as a Sorc it's virtually unavailable to me).
5. This nullifies all incoming damage, changes position, causes buffs from gear/CP, removes roots, and the list goes on, short of being a Templar there isn't much you can do about someone spamming dodge roll.
6. Assuming you mean 0 stamina recovery while blocking, perma blocking was cancerous and needed to go. Otherwise there is no increased stamina usage based on the duration you hold block.

What aggravates me the most is NBs can use their escape ability to ESCAPE an unfavorable situation. But when Sorcs use BOLT ESCAPE to ehm ESCAPE a huge outrage occurred and it was nerfed. Cuz you know, balance.

Before BE nerf.

Counters to cloak --> AoE, pots, mage light etc etc
Counters to BE spammers --> watch and weep as he teleport 4 times drop some mines use healing and hardened ward and dance in the distance.

Quiote: Cuz you know, balance.

Jar_Ek · August 2016

@Doncellius True. However the reason for the bolt escape nerf was that it was almost literally a guaranteed escape, as you could spam it to cover a huge distance and morph it to resist alot of damage for a considerable time. It was pretty hard to counter at that time and hence the nerf. Then came the shield stacking era (as a direct result of soft cap removal) making magicka stacking sorcerers have better tanking than most tanks... including easily soloing vet group content... whilst also having good damage.

Now we have a situation where magicka sorcerers have neither of these capabilities (and a very different surge mechanic) and the inherent weaknesses of the class become blindingly obvious. They were massively reliant on 3 abilities (4 if you include bolt escape) surge, ward, and overload (generally for pve more than pvp).

However changing bolt escape back to give mobility may not be the answer - because it doesn't deal with the underlying issues. Magicka sorcerers have no real focus atm. They don't have the highest sustained dps, their burst dps is timed and semi-rng dependent in pvp (and purely ultimate driven in pve), their defences are hard tp maintain and they have no escape mechanism, their healing is either pet (killable) or dot derived (surge is best procced with dots as it acts like a hot, triggering once a second) and yet they have but one class dot. And to top it all they don't even have a focus in their skill trees - being a mix of lightning/storm, summons, and dark magic (which seems not to be very dark or really very useful in general).

Nope magicka sorcerers need to be looked at long and hard - and then reworked to give them both a role and the tools to compete.

Oh and this is from a stamina sorcerer.

Barlthump · August 2016

Doncellius wrote: »

The Story of Magicka Sorcs

Once upon a time, the Sorcerer class relied on high mobility to survive and maneuver thanks to Bolt Escape.

Conjured Ward (and damage shields in general) were minor. Shieldstacking wasn't ever an issue because they barely shrugged off any damage. Mobility made up for both this and the lack of a good, direct heal. If you got caught, you were dead. Made for a fun and interesting playstyle.

Then came the great shift from high mobility to shieldstacking. Bolt Escape, the prime skill of Magicka Sorcerers, was siginificantly nerfed with a huge stacking cost because of typical QQ

Sometime in-between, they also bugged out Bolt Escape so you lose all forward momentum upon casting it. This makes it so if you are running up a slope, it barely takes you anywhere. If running down a slope (however slight) you will come to a halt midair and slowly fall until you again contact the ground, wasting lots of time. In the past, you would travel forward after casting it because you logically had momentum while moving. (one morph was also given a fat duration nerf but it's not a big deal)

To compensate with this nerf, Shieldstacking and camping in Daedric Mines became a thing. Sorcs went from mobile glass cannons to magical turrets that could soak in a ton of damage at the expense of everything else. It was extremely boring but also effective since shields became powerful. So shields were complained about.....

Shields finally got the nerf hammer with Dark Brotherhood. Duration decreased from 20sec to 6sec. Worst type of nerf possible. Surge was simultaneously nerfed to no longer allow any sort of decent healing for PvP.

So what is it ZOS wants Magicka Sorcs to do? There is no vision for the class.

As of now, there have been two main ways for a Magicka Sorc to survive so far:
• High mobility, lower threshold for damage they can take
• Shieldstack everything coming your way

So yeah.

Since the shield nerf, something happened to Magicka Sorcerers....definitely a big mystery. Ready for it?...

They disappeared

There are almost no Magicka Sorcs left in Cyrodiil because you have to stack shields every 6 seconds or less and camp mines now, which is boring. Everything coming your way snares or roots you, and Bolt Escape can become detrimental to your Magicka if cast more than 3-4 times.

Maybe it's time they reverted Sorcs to their old style of play.
• Weaken shields, increase duration to 20sec again
• Un-nerf Bolt Escape

All they needed to do was not allow you to reapply shields if you alr have one on. That would have solved the shield stack issue. And the BE nerf was needed. Sorcs didn't use mobility before, they just spammed it 5 times if they were losing. And STILL dropped mines for good measure. But the shield nerf to 6 secs is bad though I agree, just one shield at a time until it is depleted or runs out is fine.

Waffennacht · August 2016

Barlthump wrote: »

Doncellius wrote: »

The Story of Magicka Sorcs

Once upon a time, the Sorcerer class relied on high mobility to survive and maneuver thanks to Bolt Escape.

Conjured Ward (and damage shields in general) were minor. Shieldstacking wasn't ever an issue because they barely shrugged off any damage. Mobility made up for both this and the lack of a good, direct heal. If you got caught, you were dead. Made for a fun and interesting playstyle.

Then came the great shift from high mobility to shieldstacking. Bolt Escape, the prime skill of Magicka Sorcerers, was siginificantly nerfed with a huge stacking cost because of typical QQ

Sometime in-between, they also bugged out Bolt Escape so you lose all forward momentum upon casting it. This makes it so if you are running up a slope, it barely takes you anywhere. If running down a slope (however slight) you will come to a halt midair and slowly fall until you again contact the ground, wasting lots of time. In the past, you would travel forward after casting it because you logically had momentum while moving. (one morph was also given a fat duration nerf but it's not a big deal)

To compensate with this nerf, Shieldstacking and camping in Daedric Mines became a thing. Sorcs went from mobile glass cannons to magical turrets that could soak in a ton of damage at the expense of everything else. It was extremely boring but also effective since shields became powerful. So shields were complained about.....

Shields finally got the nerf hammer with Dark Brotherhood. Duration decreased from 20sec to 6sec. Worst type of nerf possible. Surge was simultaneously nerfed to no longer allow any sort of decent healing for PvP.

So what is it ZOS wants Magicka Sorcs to do? There is no vision for the class.

As of now, there have been two main ways for a Magicka Sorc to survive so far:
• High mobility, lower threshold for damage they can take
• Shieldstack everything coming your way

So yeah.

Since the shield nerf, something happened to Magicka Sorcerers....definitely a big mystery. Ready for it?...

They disappeared

There are almost no Magicka Sorcs left in Cyrodiil because you have to stack shields every 6 seconds or less and camp mines now, which is boring. Everything coming your way snares or roots you, and Bolt Escape can become detrimental to your Magicka if cast more than 3-4 times.

Maybe it's time they reverted Sorcs to their old style of play.
• Weaken shields, increase duration to 20sec again
• Un-nerf Bolt Escape

All they needed to do was not allow you to reapply shields if you alr have one on. That would have solved the shield stack issue. And the BE nerf was needed. Sorcs didn't use mobility before, they just spammed it 5 times if they were losing. And STILL dropped mines for good measure. But the shield nerf to 6 secs is bad though I agree, just one shield at a time until it is depleted or runs out is fine.

Or they literally came from over a mountain, teleported right into you, soul burnt you for 30k in 3 secs then teleported off into distance looking for another low level...

Those were the days

Vaoh · August 2016

Jar_Ek wrote: »

@Doncellius True. However the reason for the bolt escape nerf was that it was almost literally a guaranteed escape, as you could spam it to cover a huge distance and morph it to resist alot of damage for a considerable time. It was pretty hard to counter at that time and hence the nerf. Then came the shield stacking era (as a direct result of soft cap removal) making magicka stacking sorcerers have better tanking than most tanks... including easily soloing vet group content... whilst also having good damage.

Now we have a situation where magicka sorcerers have neither of these capabilities (and a very different surge mechanic) and the inherent weaknesses of the class become blindingly obvious. They were massively reliant on 3 abilities (4 if you include bolt escape) surge, ward, and overload (generally for pve more than pvp).

However changing bolt escape back to give mobility may not be the answer - because it doesn't deal with the underlying issues. Magicka sorcerers have no real focus atm. They don't have the highest sustained dps, their burst dps is timed and semi-rng dependent in pvp (and purely ultimate driven in pve), their defences are hard tp maintain and they have no escape mechanism, their healing is either pet (killable) or dot derived (surge is best procced with dots as it acts like a hot, triggering once a second) and yet they have but one class dot. And to top it all they don't even have a focus in their skill trees - being a mix of lightning/storm, summons, and dark magic (which seems not to be very dark or really very useful in general).

Nope magicka sorcerers need to be looked at long and hard - and then reworked to give them both a role and the tools to compete.

Oh and this is from a stamina sorcerer.

I can't speak too much about it from my own experience. PS4 player here

Problem is, the stacking cost on Bolt Escape ruined the mobility of Magicka Sorcs. That shield duration nerf still lets them have powerful shieldstacking, but they must constantly recast even when untouched, burning Magicka and honestly making for a boring playstyle. They're the only class spec that is forced to rely on shields (has many downsides).

I'm going to better articulate my thoughts eventually and post about it, but the general issue is that Magicka Sorcs have survived through two very different ways:
• High Mobility - keeping distance
• Shieldstacking - stacking 2-3 shields

If those two strategies are annoying.... well:
• It is annoying that any Stamina class can activate Shuffle to dodge attacks, or use Resolving Vigor+Rally+dodge roll to remain invincible for a bit.
• It's annoying that a NB escaped via cloaking
• It's annoying that a Templar purified my DoT and heal by spamming BoL with Major Mending
• It's annoying that Magicka DK reflected my projectile
• It's annoying my zerg couldn't run over that Sorc because he used Bolt Escape to keep his distance....

Everything is annoying. Sometimes things need to be toned down (ahem.... Stamina meta), but not to negate a playstyle. The reason why Magicka Sorcs are no longer spotted outside of the irregular few getting slaughtered is because they have no direction. Boring and pointless. They bring nothing special to the table besides a bunch of terrible skills and the biggest pidgeonholing you've ever seen within a class. It's sad.

I want Sorcs to be the mobile class again. If one escapes you, gap closing a bunch of times will murder them and their sustain. And if they somehow manage to actually get away.... what's the issue if they sometimes escape the zergs? The POINT of Bolt Escape is to escape.

I have a feeling that Cyrodiil would be much better off (and much more fun/interesting) with mobile Magicka Sorcs than shieldstacker Magicka Sorcs.

AfkNinja · August 2016

Bolt Escape escalating cost at the VERY LEAST should not apply in PVE cause that's just stupid.

Minalan · August 2016

There's a great counter to someone 'bolting' away - Magicka poison.

I wouldn't remove the fatigue/increasing cost on bolt escape, but I would cut the increasing cost some and reduce the fatigue timer to no more than two seconds. Two seconds is enough time to gap close, that's fair.

Balanced. Gap closers are so much stronger than bolt escape now that it isn't funny.

jhharvest · August 2016

I think reverting the stacking cost of Bolt escape would be wrong. It's a mechanic that punishes spamming - great. But the lack of momentum at the end of BE is pretty bad. Doesn't work properly uphill or down, and that's most of Cyro. Similarly I think the shield duration nerf was wrong solution to the shield stacking problem; they really should have just removed shield stacking. And Harness blocking physical damage? That's just stupid.

The other issue I have is with the Daedric mines nerf. Now crit rush (which two thirds of Cyro seem to be running) sails right through my mines. A skill that's supposed to root? Really now.

I just don't get what the development team is thinking.

Gallifreyy · August 2016

You seem to be an L2P sorc that has trouble with simple things. There are reasons why streak and dodge roll got the exponential cost increase was because people were perma streaking and perma dodge rolling making sorcs and any stam build too hard to hit. Not to mention that most sorcs around that time was all they did was see someone and just streak away with no penalty.

notimetocare · August 2016

Im guessing OP never played before the stacking cost increase...

Minalan · August 2016

Gallifreyy wrote: »

You seem to be an L2P sorc that has trouble with simple things. There are reasons why streak and dodge roll got the exponential cost increase was because people were perma streaking and perma dodge rolling making sorcs and any stam build too hard to hit. Not to mention that most sorcs around that time was all they did was see someone and just streak away with no penalty.

Maybe you haven't looked lately, but for the most part people still are perma-dodge rolling.

Where's your stam penalty on gap closers?

Master_Kas · August 2016

They need to remove the nerf, Change the penalty to two seconds or make the stacking cost only increase once then stay at that cost imo.

My main characters are 2 nightblades.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom any chance ? Sorcerers really need it.

Brutusmax1mus · August 2016

You can not perma dodge roll on ps4. Dodge rolling not only goes up exponentially, but we can't rebind keys and every roll delays regen for 2 seconds. Plus if you're just rolling around you're not hitting anyone and just look dumb.

You can be good at the game and roll every 5 seconds, which will be effective (so long as you have regen on console).

Edited typos

Cronopoly · August 2016

As a defensive mechanism available to all, there's CP specifically reducing dodge Cost in addition to normal Stam reduction/Regen.

Obviously there's no such specific CP for a class ability like Streak.

I have no dog in this fight, as my magicka toons (except Templar) are parked as largely broken for competitive PVP.

Master_Kas · August 2016

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

You can not perma dodge roll on ps4. Dodge rolling not only goes up exponentially, but we can't rebind keys and every roll delays regen for 2 seconds. Plus if you're just rolling around you're not hitting anyone and just look dumb.

You can be good at the game and roll every 5 seconds, which will be effective (so long as you have regen on console).

Edited typos

Never understood people comparing Bolt Escape to dodgeroll.

Dodgeroll = Unable to get hit with ANYTHING but magicka aoe attacks (like wall of elements, proxy det, sap essence/draw essence etc)
Streak = Can still be hit by anything, and easy to gapclose to catch up.

:<

Cathexis · August 2016

I could make a thousand arguments as to why bolt escape shouldnt be nerfed, or possible suggestions as to how to improve it.

But the only real important argument that stands out in my mind is this:

Every time there has been a systematic nerfing of defensive class abilities, it makes them inherently less fun, and then necessitates further nerfing of other classes to bring the new OP abilities in line. I mean, can you honestly say that sorcerers are more fun now than they were before when they had a strong mobility emphasis? The trade-off between being able to snag that sorc who always gets away vs totally destroying a fun and enjoyable class style to me has always seemed like a massive waste of potential.

Vaoh · August 2016

Master_Kas wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

You can not perma dodge roll on ps4. Dodge rolling not only goes up exponentially, but we can't rebind keys and every roll delays regen for 2 seconds. Plus if you're just rolling around you're not hitting anyone and just look dumb.

You can be good at the game and roll every 5 seconds, which will be effective (so long as you have regen on console).

Edited typos

Never understood people comparing Bolt Escape to dodgeroll.

Dodgeroll = Unable to get hit with ANYTHING but magicka aoe attacks (like wall of elements, proxy det, sap essence/draw essence etc)
Streak = Can still be hit by anything, and easy to gapclose to catch up.

:<

Spot on. It's a really bad comparison.

That was simply the excuse used by "Stamina players" to get it nerfed.

I think one of the big failings of ESO, which has caused the drastic nerfing of many abilities overtime that never should've been so heavily nerfed, sparked from debate between class vs class and stamina vs magicka.

Many players stick to a certain class/playstyle and avoid others, then have no issue with complaining to benefit themselves. It has clouded the judgement of many players and gets tons of things nerfed/buffed incorrectly.

The latest addition to that list was the duration nerf to shields. They needed to tweak shields, but did it in a way that completely ruined it for the large majority of Magicka Sorcs. Yeah, Sorcerers can still be played by great players, but the class is a mess and nearly everyone rerolled to escape it. Streak nerfed, Surge nerfed, Shields nerfed. It's ironic they took more time updating visuals (Bound Armor) for Sorcs than fixing bugs and updating weak/useless skills.

Another example is Templars. They have asked for so many buffs overtime to "be on par" that they're buffs/strengths overtime have gone unchecked Now at least four out of five Magicka players in Cyrodiil are Templars. That's probably an underestimate too. Not even talking about the fact were in a Stamina Meta now as well from other complaints....

Honestly, I just avoid it for the most part now. It's more fun to think of ways to buff skills, add new skills, and theorycraft than debate these things from a neutral, unbiased POV. You can't convince the majority of rerolled Magicka Templars that Radiant Oppression needs any sort of tweaks in PvP because it makes things easy.

Xeven · August 2016

Master_Kas wrote: »

proxy det

RIP

Minalan · August 2016

Vaoh wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

Brutusmax1mus wrote: »

You can not perma dodge roll on ps4. Dodge rolling not only goes up exponentially, but we can't rebind keys and every roll delays regen for 2 seconds. Plus if you're just rolling around you're not hitting anyone and just look dumb.

You can be good at the game and roll every 5 seconds, which will be effective (so long as you have regen on console).

Edited typos

Never understood people comparing Bolt Escape to dodgeroll.

Dodgeroll = Unable to get hit with ANYTHING but magicka aoe attacks (like wall of elements, proxy det, sap essence/draw essence etc)
Streak = Can still be hit by anything, and easy to gapclose to catch up.

:<

Spot on. It's a really bad comparison.

That was simply the excuse used by "Stamina players" to get it nerfed.

I think one of the big failings of ESO, which has caused the drastic nerfing of many abilities overtime that never should've been so heavily nerfed, sparked from debate between class vs class and stamina vs magicka.

Many players stick to a certain class/playstyle and avoid others, then have no issue with complaining to benefit themselves. It has clouded the judgement of many players and gets tons of things nerfed/buffed incorrectly.

The latest addition to that list was the duration nerf to shields. They needed to tweak shields, but did it in a way that completely ruined it for the large majority of Magicka Sorcs. Yeah, Sorcerers can still be played by great players, but the class is a mess and nearly everyone rerolled to escape it. Streak nerfed, Surge nerfed, Shields nerfed. It's ironic they took more time updating visuals (Bound Armor) for Sorcs than fixing bugs and updating weak/useless skills.

Another example is Templars. They have asked for so many buffs overtime to "be on par" that they're buffs/strengths overtime have gone unchecked Now at least four out of five Magicka players in Cyrodiil are Templars. That's probably an underestimate too. Not even talking about the fact were in a Stamina Meta now as well from other complaints....

Honestly, I just avoid it for the most part now. It's more fun to think of ways to buff skills, add new skills, and theorycraft than debate these things from a neutral, unbiased POV. You can't convince the majority of rerolled Magicka Templars that Radiant Oppression needs any sort of tweaks in PvP because it makes things easy.

And... this turns into a 'Nerf radiant' thread just a few posts in.

(In kidding, your post was spot on. Fact is even a good sorc can't beat out a good Stam build this patch, and the imbalance continues.)

Jsmalls · August 2016

Barlthump wrote: »

jyates214b14_ESO wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

Bryanonymous wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

DODGE also has it. So all classes are penalized.

Hmm, I never noticed. Still, dodge is not a class specific ability. I would just like to see some consistency in how they choose to dictate their rules to each type of player. If a Sorcerers useful escape has a spam penalty, then why are other classes not penalized on their useful abilities? And the exponential increase is just overkill.

Well... Most defensive abilities cant be spammed.. Or rather there is no point spamming them. For eg:

1. Wings for the DK ( reflects 4 projectiles over 4 seconds was it?... So spamming this before it runs out is a waste of mana).
2. Sheilds such as hardened/annulemt --> recasting before they run out is a waste unless you expect some insane damage and you want to refresh timer. So no point in spamming them.
3. Cloak --> no point in spamming it. Use it when it runs out or if u get spotted.
4. Well... Templar heals are used when u need healing.. and tbh heals arent really defensive abilities in my playbook... more of sustain.
5. doge roll --> not class specific but penalised nonetheless
6. Block --> not class specific but penalised nonetheless

So im curious as to what defensive abilities you want to make exponentially cost-increase for spamming as nothing comes to my mind? Bolt escape is one of those abilities that is defensive and CAN be spammed for great benefit in positioning/getting away.... Gap closers dont have an increasing cost cos they take you into danger and you cannot control where you go I guess.

1. When targeted by multiple attackers wings can and is most definitely spammed by mDKs.
2. Does not return damage, does not change locations, and i think has been addressed by the 70% duration nerf. Agreed.
3. No point in spamming it? Are you kidding? Have you ever played against a mNB? I'll pull them out of stealth 6 to 7 times in a row, and they can just continuously reapply it. I think this ability is the first one that should receive the Bolt escape treatment.
4. Healing doesn't really need to be touched, you can counter it with defile (even if as a Sorc it's virtually unavailable to me).
5. This nullifies all incoming damage, changes position, causes buffs from gear/CP, removes roots, and the list goes on, short of being a Templar there isn't much you can do about someone spamming dodge roll.
6. Assuming you mean 0 stamina recovery while blocking, perma blocking was cancerous and needed to go. Otherwise there is no increased stamina usage based on the duration you hold block.

What aggravates me the most is NBs can use their escape ability to ESCAPE an unfavorable situation. But when Sorcs use BOLT ESCAPE to ehm ESCAPE a huge outrage occurred and it was nerfed. Cuz you know, balance.

Before BE nerf.

Counters to cloak --> AoE, pots, mage light etc etc
Counters to BE spammers --> watch and weep as he teleport 4 times drop some mines use healing and hardened ward and dance in the distance.

Quiote: Cuz you know, balance.

Hard CC, Critical rush, ambush, toppling charge, chains (alright I'll give you chains suck) but those are all VERY viable counters to bolt escape. Once upon a time they didn't work very well, but in my opinion they are performing very well now, ehm gap closing into keeps.

It has a very easy counter that a vast majority of cyrodiil has slotted. And a good NB can disappear very easily. The radius of mage light is rather small. I'll give you detection pots are perhaps a little too effective, but that's forcing you to slot a potion for one build. Personally I'd rather have immovable and stamina pots to counter their insane Incaps right now.

But don't act like it doesn't have a counter when it does.

Just like NBs invis has a counter but isn't penalized for spamming.