Let's talk about RNG

iRogue32

TL;DR the RNG loot system is not rewarding

This post is meant to express the problems that I (and many others) have with the current RNG based loot system that exists with end-game content. I will start by showing mathematical breakdowns of various drop rates.

Veteran Maelstrom Arena

Maelstrom Weapon Drop Rate: 50%
Number of Maelstrom Weapons: 12
Number of Possible Traits: 8
Percent Chance to Drop a Specific Weapon/Trait Combo: .5 * (1/12) * (1/8) * 100 = 0.52083333%

That’s right! You have about a 1 in 200 chance of getting your desired weapon upon completing Veteran Maelstrom arena.

Undaunted Sets

Shoulder Drop Rate per Gold Key: 100%
Number of Shoulders: 10
Number of Weights: 3
Number of Possible Traits: 7
Percentage Chance to Drop a Specific Shoulder/Trait Combo: 1.0 * (1/10) * (1/3) * (1/7) *100 = 0.4714285714285716%
The Drop Rate for a specific Monster Mask will be even lower because they don’t have a 100% drop rate.

Normal/Veteran Scalable Trials (vSO and vMoL)

The way set items drop in these trials if more complicated than previous 2 because each boss drop specific pieces. For example, on boss might drop Chests and Legs, while another might drop Jewelry. Each boss is guaranteed to drop a set piece.
Number of Possible Traits: 7
This means that upon getting set item piece that you want, there is a 1 in seven chance that it will be in the trait you desire.

The Problems with RNG

The RNG system is meant to keep players doing content. Always working towards getting that perfect piece of gear. The problem is that in practice, it doesn’t feel like you are working towards anything. No matter how many times you beat something and don’t get the desired drop, you are no closer to getting that item you want. Your percent chance at getting it is the exact same. This reality can be felt by players. Many players have stopped running certain content (vMA) because they have ran so many times and not received the one drop they are looking for.

Possible Solutions

Now, I didn’t come here to just complain about and in-game system without offering any possible solutions.

Reduce the Amount of Traits in the Loot Tables: The first possible solution, which in my best judgement seems like the easiest to implement, is reducing the amount of weapon and armor traits within the loot tables. This means removing traits like prosperous and training from end-game gear. These traits serve almost no purpose to end-game players, especially on sets that are intended to be used to do damage, heal, or tank. These are just 2 traits that are unneeded on both undaunted sets, and sets that drop in the end-game trials.

Add a Token System: This is my preferred way of changing the RNG system. Essentially, upon completing the repeatable quest associated with each trial, a player will be rewarded with a Unique token. For example, when a player beats vMA they will receive a Maelstrom Token. It could even be possible to reward a player with more tokens based on how high their score was. Players could then use these tokens as a unique currency to purchase the item sets that would normally drop in the corresponding trial, allowing the player to pick their desired trait. So continuing with my vMA tokens example, players can open up the shop menu of Tutor Riparius and he will have all the variants of each Maelstrom Weapon available for purchase with Maelstrom Tokens. The aspect I like so much about a system like this is that it gives players something to work for, and every time they beat something, they feel like they are getting closer to getting the perfect piece of gear.

If anyone has other solutions feel free to leave a post below and hopefully ZOS is listening.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom If you ladies could pass this on to the devs, that would be great

ArchMikem

I personally like your token idea as well. Incentive is the best method of providing motivation to complete a task. Telling you there's a chance something might happen is no incentive at all, just false hope.

Also calling it now. This thread will be bombarded with quite a few of those "y u gotta QQ" and "l2p git gud" type of people.

vampireplague

I agree the current RNG system doesn't feel like it rewards players for all the effort they put into running endgame content. I believe a token system would give players a goal to work towards and would improve everyone's experience with earning endgame rewards.

Totalitarian

I think that there might be varying drop rates among Undaunted chests. While I have no formal statistical proof of it, I can say that I've probably gotten 6 Molag Kena shoulders from many Undaunted Chests, meanwhile, about 30 Dusk Shoulders, by far my most common.

Phinix1

100% agree. The current RNG drops of RNG type with RNG trait is legit the worst loot system I have seen in 15+ years of gaming. It is terrible that you could theoretically invest years of your life grinding content and NEVER get the gear you want in Divines.

I support a token system, and the removal of Prosperous and Training from the loot pool for BoP gear.

Also, I support crafters being able to re-trait and re-style gear, which is a far better solution IMO.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno some guildies mentioned they saw you confirm on an ESO Live that you are removing Prosperous and Training from the loot tables and considering other options to improve RNG.

Can you possibly confirm/deny this and/or elaborate a bit? TY!

phreatophile

I would add a 3rd option:
Create a mechanic for trait change, it could require some hard to get material, and/or require a master crafter to do the work.
This is just as good as the token system, IMHO.

ArchMikem wrote: »

Also calling it now. This thread will be bombarded with quite a few of those "y u gotta QQ" and "l2p git gud" type of people.

Ya, that train is never late.

Bisenberger96

Though getting the perfect item will be a bit easier with in-group trading next patch (in multi-player dungeons, not vMA), the multiplicative rng system this game has is horrendous. Both of your solutions are excellent ideas, and I think both should be implemented. In addition to this, some form of trait changing should be made available. Perhaps if ZOS does not want to make rare items directly buyable with tokens, these tokens could go towards changing the trait on a dropped item instead.

Specifically in regards to vMA, it is ridiculous that you may have to run the arena hundreds of times to get your desired weapons. @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno ESO is an MMO, people want to play with their friends. Spending hundreds of hours inside a single-player arena (that honestly is more of an annoyance than a challenge) is not going to keep your player base engaged.

disintegr8

Too much maths this early in the day....

lonewolf26

Thank you @iRogue32 for putting the statistics up that help illustrate the pain we are feeling with the end game loot system.

Something I'd like to add is that the pain has gotten worse with the Dark Brotherhood itemization changes. With Dark Brotherhood we saw trait changes and the inclusion of more traits into the loot pool. As a result there are a lot more items in the pool whose traits and bonuses have no cohesion and in those cases provide even less benefit than prosperous or training. You've charged traits on maelstrom weapons that already have a 100% proc rate. You've magicka weapons dropping with stamina-based sets bonuses.

Every time i see one of these it's like a shot to the gut. You can work your butt off on a run and be rewarded with vendor trash or decon material.

I'd like to bring this discussion to @Wrobel 's attention. The multiplicative RNG system is not exciting. It's burn-out inducing and a big turn-off.

There are some great proposed solutions in this thread that I hope will be taken back to the he itemization team to work out.

daemonios

Allow free trading of gear. Introduce tokens.

But you know it's not going to happen. We've had this discussion before and I haven't seen many people who say they're happy with ESO's loot system. On ZOS' part, they're actively trolling us, namely when they actually increased the number of traits that can drop from certain bosses so that, despite an alleged increase in drop rate, the chance of getting your preferred item is now lower.

MasterSpatula

Let's talk about RNG
Let's talk about loot and me
Let's talk about all the bad things and more bad things
That are all I see.

iRogue32

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Let's talk about RNG
Let's talk about loot and me
Let's talk about all the bad things and more bad things
That are all I see.

That's how feedback works, buddy

pod88kk

Burn some incense at the shrine of RNJesus

MasterSpatula

iRogue32 wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

Let's talk about RNG
Let's talk about loot and me
Let's talk about all the bad things and more bad things
That are all I see.

That's how feedback works, buddy

Lighten up.

PvRNG is an inherently bad system relied on by lazy developers. ZOS knows this, and they still do it, so they're plainly committed to it for some reason. A token system would be good. A trade-in system would be good. Re-traiting isn't a terrible idea, but it would either need to be really expensive or really challenging to keep the specialness of getting the right trait intact. But again, ZOS knows all this, and they're committed to an inherently bad, way-outdated game mechanic.

In other words, I believe the conversation to be pointless despite the sentiment being utterly correct.

See, now I'm depressed. I felt much better about this when I was making a joke.

Ep1kMalware

iRogue32 wrote: »

TL;DR the RNG loot system is not rewarding

This post is meant to express the problems that I (and many others) have with the current RNG based loot system that exists with end-game content. I will start by showing mathematical breakdowns of various drop rates.

Veteran Maelstrom Arena

Maelstrom Weapon Drop Rate: 50%
Number of Maelstrom Weapons: 12
Number of Possible Traits: 8
Percent Chance to Drop a Specific Weapon/Trait Combo: .5 * (1/12) * (1/8) * 100 = 0.52083333%

That’s right! You have about a 1 in 200 chance of getting your desired weapon upon completing Veteran Maelstrom arena.

Undaunted Sets

Shoulder Drop Rate per Gold Key: 100%
Number of Shoulders: 10
Number of Weights: 3
Number of Possible Traits: 7
Percentage Chance to Drop a Specific Shoulder/Trait Combo: 1.0 * (1/10) * (1/3) * (1/7) *100 = 0.4714285714285716%
The Drop Rate for a specific Monster Mask will be even lower because they don’t have a 100% drop rate.

Normal/Veteran Scalable Trials (vSO and vMoL)

The way set items drop in these trials if more complicated than previous 2 because each boss drop specific pieces. For example, on boss might drop Chests and Legs, while another might drop Jewelry. Each boss is guaranteed to drop a set piece.
Number of Possible Traits: 7
This means that upon getting set item piece that you want, there is a 1 in seven chance that it will be in the trait you desire.

The Problems with RNG

The RNG system is meant to keep players doing content. Always working towards getting that perfect piece of gear. The problem is that in practice, it doesn’t feel like you are working towards anything. No matter how many times you beat something and don’t get the desired drop, you are no closer to getting that item you want. Your percent chance at getting it is the exact same. This reality can be felt by players. Many players have stopped running certain content (vMA) because they have ran so many times and not received the one drop they are looking for.

Possible Solutions

Now, I didn’t come here to just complain about and in-game system without offering any possible solutions.

Reduce the Amount of Traits in the Loot Tables: The first possible solution, which in my best judgement seems like the easiest to implement, is reducing the amount of weapon and armor traits within the loot tables. This means removing traits like prosperous and training from end-game gear. These traits serve almost no purpose to end-game players, especially on sets that are intended to be used to do damage, heal, or tank. These are just 2 traits that are unneeded on both undaunted sets, and sets that drop in the end-game trials.

Add a Token System: This is my preferred way of changing the RNG system. Essentially, upon completing the repeatable quest associated with each trial, a player will be rewarded with a Unique token. For example, when a player beats vMA they will receive a Maelstrom Token. It could even be possible to reward a player with more tokens based on how high their score was. Players could then use these tokens as a unique currency to purchase the item sets that would normally drop in the corresponding trial, allowing the player to pick their desired trait. So continuing with my vMA tokens example, players can open up the shop menu of Tutor Riparius and he will have all the variants of each Maelstrom Weapon available for purchase with Maelstrom Tokens. The aspect I like so much about a system like this is that it gives players something to work for, and every time they beat something, they feel like they are getting closer to getting the perfect piece of gear.

If anyone has other solutions feel free to leave a post below and hopefully ZOS is listening.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom If you ladies could pass this on to the devs, that would be great

let's not talk about rng,.. bad for blood pressure. rng in sanctum isn't random at all. it's a 100% chance for prosperous knightmare crap. But yeah rng there and in maelstrom makes me wana puke.

ScottK1994

RNG in roll based systems seem to work better than in this game, seems like a bizarre anomaly.

Does zenimax not understand that you can't make too much different from the meta? Online games work a certain way because it obviously works. Being creative with ideas on how to give loot is ridiculous; RNG end game looting system was perfected a long time ago. Ten years ago at least.

ScottK1994

Trials should drop group loot which is rolled on, and the loot should be amazing every time

daemonios

ScottK1994 wrote: »

Trials should drop group loot which is rolled on, and the loot should be amazing every time

No. Been there, done that. No group loot is actually one of the better aspects of ESO - no worrying about ninjas taking something they already have and/or can't use while another group member who was missing it is left high and dry.

What they need to do is fix the multiple RNG layers that make it near impossible to get your preferred piece of gear, and there are several easy ways to do it. ZOS simply don't want to because they're convinced the grind equals players playing more. Speaking for myself, I'm hanging by a thread. Farming vICP and vWGT to complete my Scathing and Spell Power Cure sets for nine months is far beyond reasonable by now.

ScottK1994

daemonios wrote: »

ScottK1994 wrote: »

Trials should drop group loot which is rolled on, and the loot should be amazing every time

No. Been there, done that. No group loot is actually one of the better aspects of ESO - no worrying about ninjas taking something they already have and/or can't use while another group member who was missing it is left high and dry.

What they need to do is fix the multiple RNG layers that make it near impossible to get your preferred piece of gear, and there are several easy ways to do it. ZOS simply don't want to because they're convinced the grind equals players playing more. Speaking for myself, I'm hanging by a thread. Farming vICP and vWGT to complete my Scathing and Spell Power Cure sets for nine months is far beyond reasonable by now.

Maybe you're right. I don't know how many players even go into trials. But I'm aware that they dont seem easily puggable(on console at least I think it's impossible)

There is an issue with gear though. It should be random but it shouldn't ever be worthless

ScottK1994

Especially if isn't easily puggable, looting in dungeons has been rewarding for me but I do get a lot of stuff I'd never need(and seems useful for a player in my team. If they're doing good and they're the right level I always give them it)

stevepdodson_ESO888

you could just see ZOS saying:

"We've listened to your feedback and are introducing a token system. You will now need to collect 500 tokens to buy one item. You will earn one token per completed run."

and then they laugh uncontrollably at us

daemonios

ScottK1994 wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

ScottK1994 wrote: »

Trials should drop group loot which is rolled on, and the loot should be amazing every time

No. Been there, done that. No group loot is actually one of the better aspects of ESO - no worrying about ninjas taking something they already have and/or can't use while another group member who was missing it is left high and dry.

What they need to do is fix the multiple RNG layers that make it near impossible to get your preferred piece of gear, and there are several easy ways to do it. ZOS simply don't want to because they're convinced the grind equals players playing more. Speaking for myself, I'm hanging by a thread. Farming vICP and vWGT to complete my Scathing and Spell Power Cure sets for nine months is far beyond reasonable by now.

Maybe you're right. I don't know how many players even go into trials. But I'm aware that they dont seem easily puggable(on console at least I think it's impossible)

There is an issue with gear though. It should be random but it shouldn't ever be worthless

I've never pugged a trials, but in Craglorn I remember seeing people forming groups in zone chat. These are the easiest trials, mind you, but even then I think candidates had to show they'd completed them to join one of the groups. Anyway, the way I see it there are 2 issues here:

1. The possibility that a specific piece might NEVER drop for you, no matter how many times you farm a dungeon/trial. In 9 months since IC came out I've never had SPC shoes drop in divines, and only had 2 pieces of Scathing Mage in divines. And I can tell you I've done possibly 200+ runs of vWGT and VICP. We need a system to correct this statistical anomaly. ZOS already put vaults in these dungeons, it would be dead simple to allow us to trade vault keys for specific pieces.
2. Regardless of the above, some drops make no sense. Prosperous and trading need to disappear from loot tables. Light armour pieces should never come in reinforced (why do I want a % increase in something that has next to 0 armour? x% of 0 is 0). Even medium shouldn't have this trait IMO, though I'm not sure if someone isn't running with medium reinforced to strike a balance between damage and resistances, namely in PvP.

ScottK1994

I think a token system would work. Like similar to the gear that drops but without the desired set piece effect and stuff(I assume there's specific effects on some weapons too?)

I think something like one trial gets enough for a minor armor piece and doing two without spending would get you a weapon or main arm or piece.

That way while you farm that thing you want you've got the backup one. The .5 of a tier if you will

Mush55

daemonios wrote: »

ScottK1994 wrote: »

Trials should drop group loot which is rolled on, and the loot should be amazing every time

No. Been there, done that. No group loot is actually one of the better aspects of ESO - no worrying about ninjas taking something they already have and/or can't use while another group member who was missing it is left high and dry.

What they need to do is fix the multiple RNG layers that make it near impossible to get your preferred piece of gear, and there are several easy ways to do it. ZOS simply don't want to because they're convinced the grind equals players playing more. Speaking for myself, I'm hanging by a thread. Farming vICP and vWGT to complete my Scathing and Spell Power Cure sets for nine months is far beyond reasonable by now.

This 100% Icp makes me want to bang my head now, fed up of well fitted scathing drops with the odd infused and the very rare divines ..

ScottK1994

And I also think the gear of trial dungeons should have traits that are unobtainable anywhere else and specific to the gear

But I'm talking as a guy who's only done 95% of normal dungeons and 2 or 3 veteran ones. No trial experience. Raiding experience on WoW like. Some on FFXIV too..

Ex_Draconis

Unfortunately, the system is working exactly as intended. I agree it's not a fun or particularly rewarding system, but it isn't meant to be. It's designed for one thing, to keep you playing the game. And you have to admit as much as it sucks it works. Remember recently when The Division came out and after a couple of weeks everyone had all the high end gear and quit playing? This is what I assume ZOS is trying to avoid with this system. This being said though I personally think it needs more balance. I have consistently played this game for 2 years and still not gotten some of the pieces I want with the trait I want. Theoretically, I could play for many more years and never get the right piece and that's just not right. This broken system needs reform.

ScottK1994

Why does anyone talk about this game like its going to be stagnant of changes? If it's going to be successful it's going to be changing all the time. They will have to make the system rewarding or eventually people will stop. The whole MMO experience is the addiction to small rewards lol. I could sit and brag about titles and stuff I got on a game and its basically an irrelevant achievement. But I bloody enjoy the reward system of games.

ScottK1994

I'm a dopamine addict for sure

Drungly

iRogue32 wrote: »

That’s right! You have about a 1 in 200 chance of getting your desired weapon upon completing Veteran Maelstrom arena.

That's wrong, because the leaderboard reward is a 100% guaranteed weapon.

Bisenberger96

Drungly wrote: »

iRogue32 wrote: »

That’s right! You have about a 1 in 200 chance of getting your desired weapon upon completing Veteran Maelstrom arena.

That's wrong, because the leaderboard reward is a 100% guaranteed weapon.

He said "upon completing Veteran Maelstrom Arena," not "upon receiving your weekly rewards."

Ex_Draconis wrote: »

Unfortunately, the system is working exactly as intended. I agree it's not a fun or particularly rewarding system, but it isn't meant to be. It's designed for one thing, to keep you playing the game. And you have to admit as much as it sucks it works. Remember recently when The Division came out and after a couple of weeks everyone had all the high end gear and quit playing? This is what I assume ZOS is trying to avoid with this system. This being said though I personally think it needs more balance. I have consistently played this game for 2 years and still not gotten some of the pieces I want with the trait I want. Theoretically, I could play for many more years and never get the right piece and that's just not right. This broken system needs reform.

Exactly. Good loot still needs to be a challenge to get, but not so ridiculous as it is now. People farm vma, normal trials, and vet dungeons so they can move onto higher level content. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @Wrobel do you ever wonder why so little people have completed vmol? This trial is so dps intensive it is probably impossible to do without your raid party having decent maelstrom weapons. If you're going to release new, more challenging content, then allow your players to acquire the necessary gear to complete it without making them repeat old content enough times to where they could do it in their sleep!

ScottK1994

Do they not decrease the difficulty of older trials when new ones are released? I thought that was standard to give the casuals a chance?