Tutorialize Dungeoneering

KochDerDamonen

I am still surprised every day at the sheer number of people both experienced and new that lack bits of knowledge when it comes to group content. Standing in AoEs/other ground targets, not blocking heavy attacks/bashing power attacks, not using spells/equipment essential to their selected role (tank without taunt or S&B, dps that left click and sparsely use spells, healers not using a restoration staff or having no/few class heals equipped), failure to communicate or outright antisocial behavior (not responding to group discussions, lashing out at offers for help/recomendations), disregard for their own or other's survival.

I think we should add a bronze pledge. The first undaunted quest you pick up should introduce you to these, they should focus on the tier 1 dungeons and the goals in the quest should teach the basics of interacting with other players in group content. Encourage communication and using mechanics.

s7732425ub17_ESO

We have a bronze pledge... it's what you get when you complete the silver pledge dungeon but don't kill all the bosses.

UltimaJoe777

While your idea has merit, it isn't always so cut and dry. Even if they do run the tutorial (which they probably won't, because people tend to hate tutorials) they still have to practice. Perhaps someone could form a guild that serves to teach people proper pro tactics when running dungeons by doing normal pledges with them scaled down.

Humatiel

Its almost as if we could have some sort of player run organization to teach people...hmm and maybe they could even be available to run the content together...wait wait and I've got it now, what if they ALSO made it so it was on a list everyone can see so that they can find each other easily? I am going to dub this invention a guild and it shall be wonderful.

In all seriousness though there are a thousand ways for a player to learn but it does mean being social(ish). We are on an MMO so that social aspect is in the fine print.

EternalEther

In WoW's last expansion, you couldn't do heroic dungeons unless you has passed a sort of test at the Proving Grounds. There was one for tanking, one for healing and one for dps. It wasn't perfect, and practice was still required, but it was useful. The dps one was nice because it wasn't possible to just burn down the targets; you were forced to learn and use the mechanics and do more than just your rote rotation.

Perhaps something similar could be implemented here. An Undaunted quest at level 10, in a solo instance, where you have to successfully block heavy attacks, bash/interrupt, and move/dodge roll out of the red. After completing the test then you get access to dungeons. It wouldn't completely solve the problem, but it would help I think.

Acrolas

Maybe a solo training instance of each dungeon so you can play through them and know what to expect? When you complete it, you get a fruit basket. With corn, pumpkin, and tomatoes, because you can learn something new every day.

Totalitarian

When it comes to newbies, I'm fine with inexperience, because, honestly, people have to start somewhere. I think we all started out as terrible players. I was there once (Not applicable on vICP and vWGT pledge days)

But when I see a CP 501 character standing in an Ibomez the Atronach Warden guy AOE, and he says that he didn't know that it did more damage the further away you are, I'll give him that, because I didn't know that either. But then again, you don't stand in red in the first place.

Also, it kills me on the inside when people use Force Pulse over Crushing Shock. When I go against the big Watcher in vICP, I make sure to let every magicka build know to slot Crushing Shock, and every time it seems like I get 'I use the other morph'. So me, the healer, is doing the best to juggle healing, dps, and using Crushing Shock while the tank taunts the boss in front of one of the summoning enemies.

I'll forgive a stamina build taking Poison Injection over Venom Arrow, but not a magicka build taking Force Pulse over Crushing Shock.

itehache

Getting better takes practice.

The first mmo I ever played was wow and I remember I had literally no clue what was going on in my first dungeon. I fell from a bridge and I could not find the way to my group again. I literally spent all the time trying to get to them and never suceed, got killed several times by random mobs xD (sad noob times lol)

Little by little you start getting better and if you have more xp from other games it is easier. However there will always be new people who need to understand how to run a dungeon and how to deal with boss tacts.

When I am just bored and I feel like running a random dungeon I use the group finder, but if I need to complete silver and gold I prefer to always run with guildies or friends, but still, we all need time and practice to get better

UltimaJoe777

Totalitarian wrote: »

When it comes to newbies, I'm fine with inexperience, because, honestly, people have to start somewhere. I think we all started out as terrible players. I was there once (Not applicable on vICP and vWGT pledge days)

But when I see a CP 501 character standing in an Ibomez the Atronach Warden guy AOE, and he says that he didn't know that it did more damage the further away you are, I'll give him that, because I didn't know that either. But then again, you don't stand in red in the first place.

Also, it kills me on the inside when people use Force Pulse over Crushing Shock. When I go against the big Watcher in vICP, I make sure to let every magicka build know to slot Crushing Shock, and every time it seems like I get 'I use the other morph'. So me, the healer, is doing the best to juggle healing, dps, and using Crushing Shock while the tank taunts the boss in front of one of the summoning enemies.

I'll forgive a stamina build taking Poison Injection over Venom Arrow, but not a magicka build taking Force Pulse over Crushing Shock.

Welcome to the world of DPS min/maxing lol

itehache

EternalEther wrote: »

In WoW's last expansion, you couldn't do heroic dungeons unless you has passed a sort of test at the Proving Grounds. There was one for tanking, one for healing and one for dps. It wasn't perfect, and practice was still required, but it was useful. The dps one was nice because it wasn't possible to just burn down the targets; you were forced to learn and use the mechanics and do more than just your rote rotation.

Perhaps something similar could be implemented here. An Undaunted quest at level 10, in a solo instance, where you have to successfully block heavy attacks, bash/interrupt, and move/dodge roll out of the red. After completing the test then you get access to dungeons. It wouldn't completely solve the problem, but it would help I think.

True that. Silver proving grounds were more difficult than heroic dungeons, at least for me haha and I never finished gold proving grounds, but I managed to kill almost all bosses in mythic hfc

I did not think about that, it could work to have a proving ground system at least to queue for veteran dungeons (everyone should be able to queue for normal dungeons). The first time I tried a veteran dungeon in this game I got rekt xD

KochDerDamonen

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

While your idea has merit, it isn't always so cut and dry. Even if they do run the tutorial (which they probably won't, because people tend to hate tutorials) they still have to practice. Perhaps someone could form a guild that serves to teach people proper pro tactics when running dungeons by doing normal pledges with them scaled down.

That's why I thought it would be a good idea to make it a new kind of pledge, hide it as a fun intro to doing dungeons with loot and daily quests

Plus, I personally know a numbet of people who will not enter a dungeon/veteran dungeon because they're afraid of being the person that knows nothing, don't like talking it out. Anecdotal, yes. I think this game could benefit from a formal teamwork tutorial, even if it literally only encouraged tge communicating thing.

UltimaJoe777

KochDerDamonen wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

While your idea has merit, it isn't always so cut and dry. Even if they do run the tutorial (which they probably won't, because people tend to hate tutorials) they still have to practice. Perhaps someone could form a guild that serves to teach people proper pro tactics when running dungeons by doing normal pledges with them scaled down.

That's why I thought it would be a good idea to make it a new kind of pledge, hide it as a fun intro to doing dungeons with loot and daily quests

Plus, I personally know a numbet of people who will not enter a dungeon/veteran dungeon because they're afraid of being the person that knows nothing, don't like talking it out. Anecdotal, yes. I think this game could benefit from a formal teamwork tutorial, even if it literally only encouraged tge communicating thing.

Text chat in my opinion is going to boost socializing drastically on consoles. That said, if anything use public dungeons for practice. The bosses spawn slowly but at least you can show them the ropes one way or another.

KochDerDamonen

Humatiel wrote: »

Its almost as if we could have some sort of player run organization to teach people...hmm and maybe they could even be available to run the content together...wait wait and I've got it now, what if they ALSO made it so it was on a list everyone can see so that they can find each other easily? I am going to dub this invention a guild and it shall be wonderful.

In all seriousness though there are a thousand ways for a player to learn but it does mean being social(ish). We are on an MMO so that social aspect is in the fine print.

That's the thing, the folks I have in mind don't want to join guilds, they don't want to 'get in the way' of others doing dungeons. There's a lot of players here new to online gaming in general, and some are having serious trouble picking up that whole social thing.

Leon119

well this should help with tanking and healing. he didnt make one for dd yet but when he does ill share

Tanking:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ivtJD0t9M4


Healing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DxS7eT_ky4

CasNation

I agree. There needs to be a better introduction to group content and how it works. It could be a training arena with the Undaunted acting as your groupmates and yelling at you for taking to much damage/not taunting/not healing.

As it stands, the game does very little to teach you these things. Does it even tell you in a tutorial what a Taunt is? Some people have never played a game where taunts exist.

KochDerDamonen

CasNation wrote: »

I agree. There needs to be a better introduction to group content and how it works. It could be a training arena with the Undaunted acting as your groupmates and yelling at you for taking to much damage/not taunting/not healing.

As it stands, the game does very little to teach you these things. Does it even tell you in a tutorial what a Taunt is? Some people have never played a game where taunts exist.

Yes yes, I don't think some folks are grasping how basic I mean for this 'tutorial' to be. Things many of us would consider obvious--what a 'taunt' means, healing others, dealing danage, using the chat. This game has quite a large number of users who are not familiar with MMOs or online games at all that could benefit greatly from tutorialization

ScottK1994

The first dungeon should have been a trial for players to learn the mechanics and then removed from random queues etc

(With it telling you a personalised tutorial based on your role. Like if you're a tank it will flash to equip 1h and shield and even give a stock white set if they don't have it. Same with healer and resto staff)

FFXIV had a good system for this. I think it lacks business sense to not copy from working online games in every legal opportunity. Zenimax should have been an extreme success. All they had to do was recreate a elder scrolls world which they did perfectly with a stock MMO system(which they didn't. Too much independent ideas on how simple things work like dungeon queues and loot.) It works for a reason.

Maotti

Totalitarian wrote: »

I'll forgive a stamina build taking Poison Injection over Venom Arrow, but not a magicka build taking Force Pulse over Crushing Shock.

Force pulse for PvE and Crushing Shock for PvP. I actually thought this was the norm tbh.

yodased

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

While your idea has merit, it isn't always so cut and dry. Even if they do run the tutorial (which they probably won't, because people tend to hate tutorials) they still have to practice. Perhaps someone could form a guild that serves to teach people proper pro tactics when running dungeons by doing normal pledges with them scaled down.

I have, it's called dungeon dwellers and we are kinda awesome

Kalifas

ScottK1994 wrote: »

The first dungeon should have been a trial for players to learn the mechanics and then removed from random queues etc

(With it telling you a personalised tutorial based on your role. Like if you're a tank it will flash to equip 1h and shield and even give a stock white set if they don't have it. Same with healer and resto staff)

FFXIV had a good system for this. I think it lacks business sense to not copy from working online games in every legal opportunity. Zenimax should have been an extreme success. All they had to do was recreate a elder scrolls world which they did perfectly with a stock MMO system(which they didn't. Too much independent ideas on how simple things work like dungeon queues and loot.) It works for a reason.

Yeah this would be helpful. Basically queue up for practice dungeon as a role tank, healer, or DPS. Have the game assign you a task in the short instance. Have dialogue direct you how to spot enemy moves and how to counteract that moment. Score you on well you did on performance.






I'd actually use cut sequences from actual 4 man dungeons such as a boss to learn the fundamentals.

That game also has sky/sea/land to perfect DPS rotations and a mentor system for experienced players showing newbs the ropes. It still requires practice to get good even if you do these but at least you have a solid grasp of fundamentals.