Racial passives are still determining too much of your play style

Sinolai
Sinolai
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In the latest eso live you stated that you dont want to force people pick certain race to play certain way. (01:05:00 - 01:05:40)
However, Redguard mages, Khajiit mages and Altmer tanks are much weaker than their "optimal race" counterparts. Lorewise it is natural that Altmer are stronger magicians than Nords, but that shouldn't mean that the Altmer were useless warriors or that Nord Sorcerers were really just a mad man trying to act wiser than he was. Why does Breton Lion Guard even exist when they are clearly not warriors? They should be group of wizards instead.
When thinking lore however, it is clear that there are mighty Redguard necromancers and Altmer warriors although they are less common.
In order to make these viable builds I'd suggest you to add 1 more racial passive that would have high effect on stamina builds for the current "magicka races" and magicka builds for the "stamina races".

Here is a few examples of what kind of skills you could add to different races:

Altmer: Arcane Warriors - Increases weapon damage based on your max magicka and health recovery based on your current magicka. (100% magicka gives 9/18/27% hp recovery, drops lineary as magicka is spent [so at 50% magicka you have +13,5% health recovery]. As for the weapon damage, I am not sure which numbers would be fitting so I leave it for you to come up with nice numbers :tongue: )

Bosmer: Spinner's gift - increases magicka recovery by 2/4/6% and spell critical chance by 2/5/8%

Khajiit: Blessings of the Two Moons - Increases magicka recovery by 2/4/8%. Every time you cast a spell you will gain Minor Sorcery, Minor Intellect, Minor Berserk or Minor Prophecy at random. The effect will last 3/6/9 seconds and will trigger once every 10 second. (no carnage so give something nice for khajiit casters)

Breton: Dragonskin - Increases max health by 1/2/3% When you take spell damage, you will restore 1/2/3% of your stamina. This can happen once every 3 seconds.

Redguard: Tu'Whacca's Blessing - Increases spell damage by 20% against enemies with less than 25% hp. (good boost for mages who won't benefit from Adrenaline Rush)

Orc: Shamanistic Insight - increases max magicka by 1/3/5%. Spells have 5/7/10% change to return their mana cost.

Nord: Nordic Guts - Increases magicka & stamina recovery by 0,5/1/1,5% for each precent of missing HP. Once every 30sec recovers 11/22/33% of your max magicka if your HP drops below 25%.

Dunmer: Ebonheart - Increases max hp by 1/2/3% and reduce cost of break free and blocking by 15%

Argonian: Hardened Scales - Increases max stamina by 2/4/6% and Armor value by 1320/2640/3960 (This would also keep the old Argonian tanks in game as you just turned them from stamina tanks into magicka healers. A thing you didn't want to do according to live 01:04:45 - 01:05:20)

Imperial: Imperial Battlemage - Increases Magicka recovery by 3/6/9% and Spell Critical damage by 2/5/8% (good boost for mages who won't benefit from Red Diamond)

In addition I'd like to say that as someone suggested during the live show, you should give AP boost to imperials instead of bretons and gold boost to bretons instead of imperials. It would be more lore friendly and giving the AP boost to race that is availiable to only 1 alliance doesn't feel right. Instead you could give it to the "special" race that is availiable to every alliance providing you have the imperial edition. Even the passive names "Diplomat" and "Opportunist" would sound like they should be reversed.


Edited by Sinolai on July 9, 2016 7:45AM
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  • Sinolai
    Sinolai
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    Khenarthi wrote: »
    I'm doing just fine with 4 Khajiit mages... a Breton or Altmer would be a bit more efficient but my Khajiit do not feel underpowered. Race does not determine my play style at all.

    The changes you suggest would be welcome, sure, but not very lore-friendly.

    Good for you then :tongue: you are one of the few who actually can ignore the fact you have lower damage, less sustain and 1 useless racial passive (Have you put skill points into it?). Many players however want to get the most of their character which now kind of exclude certain play styles.

    I tried to be lore friendly :tongue: Would you like to point what went wrong? (Well the 33% Nord magicka recovery might be a bit too much.)
    Edited by Sinolai on July 9, 2016 7:23AM
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  • Khenarthi
    Khenarthi
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    Sinolai wrote: »
    Khenarthi wrote: »
    I'm doing just fine with 4 Khajiit mages... a Breton or Altmer would be a bit more efficient but my Khajiit do not feel underpowered. Race does not determine my play style at all.

    The changes you suggest would be welcome, sure, but not very lore-friendly.

    Good for you then :tongue: you are one of the few who actually can ignore the fact you have lower damage, less sustain and 1 useless racial passive (Have you put a skill points into it?). Many players however want to get the most of their character which now kind of exclude certain play styles.

    I tried to be lore friendly :tongue: Would you like to point what went wrong? (Well the 33% Nord magicka recovery might be a bit too much.)

    My mages do not use any of their racial passives for combat. With enough CP (which anyone can gain) characters can get powerful enough; the right equipment is also very important.

    As for lore... I'm not the most knowledgeable around, but for example: Orcs, Nords, Redguard and Khajiit (except some forms not present in game) are not supposed to be great mages, and Altmer and Bretons are supposed to rely on magic rather than other attributes. Also, Imperials had a passive in precious ES games giving them an affinity for gold, if I remember right.

    Don't get me wrong, I'd love for my mage characters to be stronger because I only play Khajiits, I just do not think it makes a lot of sense for it to happen... I actually like the way ZOS set up the passives for each race.

    Your idea is good, but I don't think it will be implemented.
    Stop right there, criminal scum!
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  • Teridaxus
    Teridaxus
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    Soft caps and decoupling resources from ability scaling and bam, races have like 1% influence on build again.
  • Sinolai
    Sinolai
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    Khenarthi wrote: »
    Sinolai wrote: »
    Khenarthi wrote: »

    Your idea is good, but I don't think it will be implemented.

    Me neither :tongue: and it doesn't have to be as I suggested. But I would like to see something that would balance the fight between Altmer and Redguard wizards.
    Edited by Sinolai on July 9, 2016 7:48AM
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  • Kronuxx
    Kronuxx
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    Sinolai wrote: »
    In the latest eso live you stated that you dont want to force people pick certain race to play certain way. (01:05:00 - 01:05:40)
    However, Redguard mages, Khajiit mages and Altmer tanks are much weaker than their "optimal race" counterparts. Lorewise it is natural that Altmer are stronger magicians than Nords, but that shouldn't mean that the Altmer were useless warriors or that Nord Sorcerers were really just a mad man trying to act wiser than he was. Why does Breton Lion Guard even exist when they are clearly not warriors? They should be group of wizards instead.
    When thinking lore however, it is clear that there are mighty Redguard necromancers and Altmer warriors although they are less common.
    In order to make these viable builds I'd suggest you to add 1 more racial passive that would have high effect on stamina builds for the current "magicka races" and magicka builds for the "stamina races".

    Here is a few examples of what kind of skills you could add to different races:

    Altmer: Arcane Warriors - Increases weapon damage based on your max magicka and health recovery based on your current magicka. (100% magicka gives 9/18/27% hp recovery, drops lineary as magicka is spent [so at 50% magicka you have +13,5% health recovery]. As for the weapon damage, I am not sure which numbers would be fitting so I leave it for you to come up with nice numbers :tongue: )

    Bosmer: Spinner's gift - increases magicka recovery by 2/4/6% and spell critical chance by 2/5/8%

    Khajiit: Blessings of the Two Moons - Increases magicka recovery by 2/4/8%. Every time you cast a spell you will gain Minor Sorcery, Minor Intellect, Minor Berserk or Minor Prophecy at random. The effect will last 3/6/9 seconds and will trigger once every 10 second. (no carnage so give something nice for khajiit casters)

    Breton: Dragonskin - Increases max health by 1/2/3% When you take spell damage, you will restore 1/2/3% of your stamina. This can happen once every 3 seconds.

    Redguard: Tu'Whacca's Blessing - Increases spell damage by 20% against enemies with less than 25% hp. (good boost for mages who won't benefit from Adrenaline Rush)

    Orc: Shamanistic Insight - increases max magicka by 1/3/5%. Spells have 5/7/10% change to return their mana cost.

    Nord: Nordic Guts - Increases magicka & stamina recovery by 0,5/1/1,5% for each precent of missing HP. Once every 30sec recovers 11/22/33% of your max magicka if your HP drops below 25%.

    Dunmer: Ebonheart - Increases max hp by 1/2/3% and reduce cost of break free and blocking by 15%

    Argonian: Hardened Scales - Increases max stamina by 2/4/6% and Armor value by 1320/2640/3960 (This would also keep the old Argonian tanks in game as you just turned them from stamina tanks into magicka healers. A thing you didn't want to do according to live 01:04:45 - 01:05:20)

    Imperial: Imperial Battlemage - Increases Magicka recovery by 3/6/9% and Spell Critical damage by 2/5/8% (good boost for mages who won't benefit from Red Diamond)

    In addition I'd like to say that as someone suggested during the live show, you should give AP boost to imperials instead of bretons and gold boost to bretons instead of imperials. It would be more lore friendly and giving the AP boost to race that is availiable to only 1 alliance doesn't feel right. Instead you could give it to the "special" race that is availiable to every alliance providing you have the imperial edition. Even the passive names "Diplomat" and "Opportunist" would sound like they should be reversed.


    Some very cool suggestions.
  • notimetocare
    notimetocare
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    Sinolai wrote: »
    Khenarthi wrote: »
    I'm doing just fine with 4 Khajiit mages... a Breton or Altmer would be a bit more efficient but my Khajiit do not feel underpowered. Race does not determine my play style at all.

    The changes you suggest would be welcome, sure, but not very lore-friendly.

    Good for you then :tongue: you are one of the few who actually can ignore the fact you have lower damage, less sustain and 1 useless racial passive (Have you put skill points into it?). Many players however want to get the most of their character which now kind of exclude certain play styles.

    I tried to be lore friendly :tongue: Would you like to point what went wrong? (Well the 33% Nord magicka recovery might be a bit too much.)

    Most people can ignore racial passives. They choose not to and that is their problem.
  • notimetocare
    notimetocare
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    Biggest issue with many suggestions is your ignorance to how health and any recovery impacts pvp.
  • UltimaJoe777
    UltimaJoe777
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    Min/Maxing is always gonna be min/maxing, but it in no way whatsoever means you HAVE to do it to be viable. For example, a magicka build on a Nord is not that terribly inefficient compared to an Altmer one...
    Edited by UltimaJoe777 on July 9, 2016 8:15AM
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  • Ep1kMalware
    Ep1kMalware
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    Sinolai wrote: »
    In the latest eso live you stated that you dont want to force people pick certain race to play certain way. (01:05:00 - 01:05:40)
    However, Redguard mages, Khajiit mages and Altmer tanks are much weaker than their "optimal race" counterparts. Lorewise it is natural that Altmer are stronger magicians than Nords, but that shouldn't mean that the Altmer were useless warriors or that Nord Sorcerers were really just a mad man trying to act wiser than he was. Why does Breton Lion Guard even exist when they are clearly not warriors? They should be group of wizards instead.
    When thinking lore however, it is clear that there are mighty Redguard necromancers and Altmer warriors although they are less common.
    In order to make these viable builds I'd suggest you to add 1 more racial passive that would have high effect on stamina builds for the current "magicka races" and magicka builds for the "stamina races".

    Here is a few examples of what kind of skills you could add to different races:

    Altmer: Arcane Warriors - Increases weapon damage based on your max magicka and health recovery based on your current magicka. (100% magicka gives 9/18/27% hp recovery, drops lineary as magicka is spent [so at 50% magicka you have +13,5% health recovery]. As for the weapon damage, I am not sure which numbers would be fitting so I leave it for you to come up with nice numbers :tongue: )

    Bosmer: Spinner's gift - increases magicka recovery by 2/4/6% and spell critical chance by 2/5/8%

    Khajiit: Blessings of the Two Moons - Increases magicka recovery by 2/4/8%. Every time you cast a spell you will gain Minor Sorcery, Minor Intellect, Minor Berserk or Minor Prophecy at random. The effect will last 3/6/9 seconds and will trigger once every 10 second. (no carnage so give something nice for khajiit casters)

    Breton: Dragonskin - Increases max health by 1/2/3% When you take spell damage, you will restore 1/2/3% of your stamina. This can happen once every 3 seconds.

    Redguard: Tu'Whacca's Blessing - Increases spell damage by 20% against enemies with less than 25% hp. (good boost for mages who won't benefit from Adrenaline Rush)

    Orc: Shamanistic Insight - increases max magicka by 1/3/5%. Spells have 5/7/10% change to return their mana cost.

    Nord: Nordic Guts - Increases magicka & stamina recovery by 0,5/1/1,5% for each precent of missing HP. Once every 30sec recovers 11/22/33% of your max magicka if your HP drops below 25%.

    Dunmer: Ebonheart - Increases max hp by 1/2/3% and reduce cost of break free and blocking by 15%

    Argonian: Hardened Scales - Increases max stamina by 2/4/6% and Armor value by 1320/2640/3960 (This would also keep the old Argonian tanks in game as you just turned them from stamina tanks into magicka healers. A thing you didn't want to do according to live 01:04:45 - 01:05:20)

    Imperial: Imperial Battlemage - Increases Magicka recovery by 3/6/9% and Spell Critical damage by 2/5/8% (good boost for mages who won't benefit from Red Diamond)

    In addition I'd like to say that as someone suggested during the live show, you should give AP boost to imperials instead of bretons and gold boost to bretons instead of imperials. It would be more lore friendly and giving the AP boost to race that is availiable to only 1 alliance doesn't feel right. Instead you could give it to the "special" race that is availiable to every alliance providing you have the imperial edition. Even the passive names "Diplomat" and "Opportunist" would sound like they should be reversed.


    omfg. they rerolled khajiit buff and nerfed redf]guard what more do you want? Why not just remove racial passives all together? if they let pk]layers handpick their passives people would still complain just because there would be majority favorites.

    ugh -.-
  • phaneub17_ESO
    phaneub17_ESO
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    I have a Magicka Khajiit Nightblade Tank!
  • Lysette
    Lysette
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    Khenarthi wrote: »
    Sinolai wrote: »
    Khenarthi wrote: »
    I'm doing just fine with 4 Khajiit mages... a Breton or Altmer would be a bit more efficient but my Khajiit do not feel underpowered. Race does not determine my play style at all.

    The changes you suggest would be welcome, sure, but not very lore-friendly.

    Good for you then :tongue: you are one of the few who actually can ignore the fact you have lower damage, less sustain and 1 useless racial passive (Have you put a skill points into it?). Many players however want to get the most of their character which now kind of exclude certain play styles.

    I tried to be lore friendly :tongue: Would you like to point what went wrong? (Well the 33% Nord magicka recovery might be a bit too much.)

    My mages do not use any of their racial passives for combat. With enough CP (which anyone can gain) characters can get powerful enough; the right equipment is also very important.

    As for lore... I'm not the most knowledgeable around, but for example: Orcs, Nords, Redguard and Khajiit (except some forms not present in game) are not supposed to be great mages, and Altmer and Bretons are supposed to rely on magic rather than other attributes. Also, Imperials had a passive in precious ES games giving them an affinity for gold, if I remember right.

    Don't get me wrong, I'd love for my mage characters to be stronger because I only play Khajiits, I just do not think it makes a lot of sense for it to happen... I actually like the way ZOS set up the passives for each race.

    Your idea is good, but I don't think it will be implemented.

    In Oblivion Imperials had a better chance to find more gold in chests and they could charm people once per day with "Voice of the Emperor" or something like this it was called.
  • UltimaJoe777
    UltimaJoe777
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    Lysette wrote: »
    Khenarthi wrote: »
    Sinolai wrote: »
    Khenarthi wrote: »
    I'm doing just fine with 4 Khajiit mages... a Breton or Altmer would be a bit more efficient but my Khajiit do not feel underpowered. Race does not determine my play style at all.

    The changes you suggest would be welcome, sure, but not very lore-friendly.

    Good for you then :tongue: you are one of the few who actually can ignore the fact you have lower damage, less sustain and 1 useless racial passive (Have you put a skill points into it?). Many players however want to get the most of their character which now kind of exclude certain play styles.

    I tried to be lore friendly :tongue: Would you like to point what went wrong? (Well the 33% Nord magicka recovery might be a bit too much.)

    My mages do not use any of their racial passives for combat. With enough CP (which anyone can gain) characters can get powerful enough; the right equipment is also very important.

    As for lore... I'm not the most knowledgeable around, but for example: Orcs, Nords, Redguard and Khajiit (except some forms not present in game) are not supposed to be great mages, and Altmer and Bretons are supposed to rely on magic rather than other attributes. Also, Imperials had a passive in precious ES games giving them an affinity for gold, if I remember right.

    Don't get me wrong, I'd love for my mage characters to be stronger because I only play Khajiits, I just do not think it makes a lot of sense for it to happen... I actually like the way ZOS set up the passives for each race.

    Your idea is good, but I don't think it will be implemented.

    In Oblivion Imperials had a better chance to find more gold in chests and they could charm people once per day with "Voice of the Emperor" or something like this it was called.

    They had a similar edge in Skyrim too.
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  • Sinolai
    Sinolai
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    Lysette wrote: »
    Khenarthi wrote: »
    Sinolai wrote: »
    Khenarthi wrote: »
    I'm doing just fine with 4 Khajiit mages... a Breton or Altmer would be a bit more efficient but my Khajiit do not feel underpowered. Race does not determine my play style at all.

    The changes you suggest would be welcome, sure, but not very lore-friendly.

    Good for you then :tongue: you are one of the few who actually can ignore the fact you have lower damage, less sustain and 1 useless racial passive (Have you put a skill points into it?). Many players however want to get the most of their character which now kind of exclude certain play styles.

    I tried to be lore friendly :tongue: Would you like to point what went wrong? (Well the 33% Nord magicka recovery might be a bit too much.)

    My mages do not use any of their racial passives for combat. With enough CP (which anyone can gain) characters can get powerful enough; the right equipment is also very important.

    As for lore... I'm not the most knowledgeable around, but for example: Orcs, Nords, Redguard and Khajiit (except some forms not present in game) are not supposed to be great mages, and Altmer and Bretons are supposed to rely on magic rather than other attributes. Also, Imperials had a passive in precious ES games giving them an affinity for gold, if I remember right.

    Don't get me wrong, I'd love for my mage characters to be stronger because I only play Khajiits, I just do not think it makes a lot of sense for it to happen... I actually like the way ZOS set up the passives for each race.

    Your idea is good, but I don't think it will be implemented.

    In Oblivion Imperials had a better chance to find more gold in chests and they could charm people once per day with "Voice of the Emperor" or something like this it was called.

    Ah, so that is where the idea came from. But still, weren't Bretons the ones more known for their business noses while Imperials are the core of the Empire and PvP oriented racial trait would be more fitting to them.
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  • Bromburak
    Bromburak
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    Sinolai wrote: »
    However, Redguard mages, Khajiit mages and Altmer tanks are much weaker than their "optimal race" counterparts.

    The best on race discussions are exaggerations like yours.
    I recommend more ESO experience and a reality check.
    Edited by Bromburak on July 10, 2016 6:39PM
  • lookstwice
    lookstwice
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    I have a Magicka Khajiit Nightblade Tank!

    And I have the Redguard version. :)
  • Daemons_Bane
    Daemons_Bane
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    Just ignore the racial passives and pick a race you'd like to play.. No big deal
    What I say is MY opinion and MY pov
  • Shadesofkin
    Shadesofkin
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    You CAN use your racials to augment your playstyle, you do not HAVE to.

    I would have played a dunmer if they'd gotten nothing.
    I play an imperial magicka dk too.
    I have an Argonian magicka DK from before they were given magicka.

    I can reach 20k dps on both the Imp and the Argonian.

    Racials are just fun ways to make it to the top, but getting to the Tier 2 level is easy.
    @shadesofkin -NA Server.
    Tier 2 Player.
    If you run in Trials and you wonder why you're not doing the sorts of damage you see on youtube videos and on forums, but you reject advice based on extensive testing, claiming "I don't agree" you're the toxic one.
  • BlackSparrow
    BlackSparrow
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    Your suggestions are lore-friendly in that they reference things from lore (Orc shamans, Two Moons relating to Khajiit mysticism, Ebonheart for Dunmer...) but they're not lore-friendly in that they go against the standard racial buffs you get in every other TES game. (Granted, there are some abilities the races have now that are also not connected to lore...e.g.,when have Argonians ever had an affinity for potions? XD ).

    In the single-player games, you always picked your race and got similar passives to what each has now, and you could still have a Redguard sorcerer or a Breton tank with little problem, because leveling skills fairly quickly outstripped any disadvantage your race might have had. However, there are two important differences between the single player games and ESO:
    • Those games were single player. Thus, someone who played as an archer as anything other than a Bosmer never had to compare their characters to those who were given the standard Bosmer advantage.
    • The level caps in the single player games were so insanely high that they were basically god-mode. The level caps of ESO are, on the other hand, entirely attainable (at least, level 50 is... CP and vet ranks are a lot tougher), and, if you PvP, you frequently face other player characters of your tier.

    Therefore, with these two things in mind, the current character passives are entirely lore-friendly. You CAN play a mighty Altmer warrior or crafty Nord witch in ESO, just as you could in the single player games. You can get awesome at those builds. It's just if you add the element of comparing yourself to other characters of similar level that it somehow seems lesser... and, honestly, that's just life in an MMO.

    When you pick your race, you pick whether you go with the standard builds or try something against the grain. When you go against the grain, you know the racial passives won't help you the same way they'd help someone who picked a standard build, and that's just a risk you take in a multiplayer game. It can lead to some cool, unique builds... but you just have to be prepared to lack one or two passives that might have helped you. It's not a lot, if you're not worried about being an "optimized" build. Optimization is boring anyway. ;)
    I am Queen of Typos. If you don't see "Edited by BlackSparrow" above this line, please assume my account has been taken over by scamps and react accordingly.

    My Girls:
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    Swum-Many-Waters, argonian healer: "Yes. I once swore to myself that I would never swim those waters again, but it seems that fate has called me back to the place of my captivity. Long ago, I made it my mission to free the oppressed of Morrowind. Perhaps I can do so again."
    Silh'ki, khajiit warrior-chef: "Nephikah describes many strange foods from her childhood. This one would like to try them!"
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    Lorenyawe, altmer scholar: "Absolutely. I came to the Pact to study volcanoes, after all. The idea that I might have access to Red Mountain itself leaves me positively tingly."
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  • Vigarr
    Vigarr
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    Passives only tip the scales for min/max players and those who want the very most out of their build for PvP. They don't prevent you from playing something outside the norm. My friend plays a heavy armor wearing, sword n board, templar Khajiit.
  • Erock25
    Erock25
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    I agree with your subject line but the answer isn't adding more racial disparity.
    Erock25 wrote: »
    Every racial bonus should be no more than 3%.

    Khajit - 3% crit, 2% stam regen, 1% stamina
    Redguard - 3% stamina, 2% stamina regen, 1% stam recovery on hit w/ 5sec cd
    Breton - 3% spell cost reduction, 2% magicka, 1% spell resist

    Etc.

    Racial bonuses should be negligible and currently they are anything but.
    You earned the 500 LOLs badge.
    You received 500 LOLs. It ain't no fluke, you post great stuff and we're lucky to have you here. +50 points
  • arkansas_ESO
    arkansas_ESO
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    OP's suggestion falls flat as, at the end of the day, there's always going to be the best passives for a given build, and, if you're not using the race with the best passives, you're hindering yourself.

    ZOS would be better off entirely uncoupling racial passives from races, and instead making racial passives "identities" and making choosing a race purely aesthetic. This way, you could, for example, be an Imperial with Altmer or Breton racial passives, and play a magic-focused Imperial without penalty. Keep the 'flavor' passives (increased XP with a given skill-line, increased swim speed, reduced fall damage, etc.) as the only racial passive, as this allows a player to feel as if their choice of race has meaning behind it without directly impacting their performance at end-game.

  • Crom_CCCXVI
    Crom_CCCXVI
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    Only because most of the population gets told something and they blindly follow it. They don't realize how insignificant some of that stuff is. A few hundred points in damage rarely makes any difference......... A dark elf does 5500 damage a Nord does 5300. Your opponent has 25k. ..... it is still 5 hits. ( Not counting the other dozen factors that are in play)
    There are plenty of very successful players who laugh at the Meta Cult.
    Edited by Crom_CCCXVI on July 11, 2016 4:49AM
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