Radical Thought - Removing Classes entirely. Skills overhaul.

Sporvan

As we move closer to the original flavour of the Elder Scrolls Series with an open world in Tamriel the thought has crossed my mind about the skill system in ESO.

I love this game but right now that's the biggest failing of it in maintaining a cohesive Elder Scrolls flavour. I kept on thinking about how to implement the Elder Scrolls schools of magic system and I'm sure ZOS has as well with the Spellcrafting abandoned idea.

The main problem is that spells that would be associated with the various schools of magic are currently distributed over Classes, Staves, etc. Then the thought popped into my head...

What about removing Classes entirely, just like an open Tamriel you pick and build a character that suits your playstyle entirely. Just like the original Elder Scrolls.

Restore the original schools of magic:

Illusion
Alteration
Destruction
Conjuration
Restoration
Mysticism
Thaumaturgy
Enchanting - with the exception of this as it fits into Crafting better.

Assign existing class skills into the schools and create more morphs for base skills where they don't fit clearly.

For example.

Destruction - Firebolt. Add morphs for each damage type, ie Fireball II, Ice, Chain lightning.

Conjuration - Summoning I, Add morphs to make it Daedra, Undead or Beast.

That way you can for example morph into an Undead summoning and finally play a Necromancer themed character without having to introduce a class.

I know this probably won't happen, but it's interesting to muse about how they could have opened up character skills as well. It would be quite revolutionary to have a mmo with no classes!

ForgottenHeretic

Sounds very similar to Skyrim which I like, and I like the idea of morphing the skill lines to your play style, if your example of conjuration were possible I would love being a necromancer

ghofmann

Exactly what I want.

I don't mind classes in general, but the ones we have are haphazardly organized.

Instead of 4 magicka based classes, I'd much rather have Warrior, Thief, Mage, and Healer.

If I want to just use a two handed sword, why do I have to be a dragonknight/templar/sorc/or nightblade? It's too disorganized and not lore-friendly. Sorc should have dark magic, conjuring, and necromancy, add a 5th class, Mage, and have a skill one for each element. There's currently no way to have a viable sorcerer without using lighting. WTH? Dragon Knight, and Templar are fine, they're battle mages (fire magic, earth magic, holy magic), but give us a straight up warrior whose class skills are stamina based. Same for nightblade. Give us a straight up stamina rogue that uses shadow and assassination skills (stamina based). Save blood magic for another class, or put those skills in the necromancy skill line.

But I like your idea even better. Give us the schools of magic and let us decide if we want to use them or not. We should absolutely be able to have a character that doesn't use any magic at all.

Auricle

So, basically Skyrim?

I don't think ESO could handle another major overhaul, and I'm not sure I'd want it to be the same as Skyrim anyway. Don't get me wrong, I like the open approach, but MMOs are kind of structure-based games, and if you could eventually do everything on one character, what would the incentive be for rolling alts? That goes against ZoS' mission of making us sink as much time/money into their game as humanly possible.

subtlezeroub17_ESO

You keep mentioning this and it doesnt work in mmos.

People will naturally gravitate towards a cookie cutter build and that could have catastrophic consequences.

If you think homogenity is happening now. Believe me, this will make it worse and becoming a balancing nightmare.

Lucious90

This would be a balance nightmare.... some sort of class structure is needed, Eso is already more homogenized than other games with weapon skills and the likes, and its taken them a while to balance on either side of the player spectrum. Not to mention LFG is a joke in terms of class roles. MMOs are a different beast than RPG in the terms of you have multiple interactions than, go into a town, or smack a sword at a monster that has a preset routine.

Im of the opinion that they should embrace the trinity a bit more

Marto

Auricle wrote: »

So, basically Skyrim?

I don't think ESO could handle another major overhaul, and I'm not sure I'd want it to be the same as Skyrim anyway. Don't get me wrong, I like the open approach, but MMOs are kind of structure-based games, and if you could eventually do everything on one character, what would the incentive be for rolling alts? That goes against ZoS' mission of making us sink as much time/money into their game as humanly possible.

Agreed.

The system OP proposes sounds good, but classes are too ingrained into the current game to straight up remove them.
No go.

idk

Bad idea. Now there will be one dos build and one way to gear. If your not setup like that your not doing it right.

Get used to classes. They're here to stay. Period.

Kalebron

Nice idea, but a bit too late to make it happen. I am comfortable with the way things are. I like my build, but would enjoy seeing a set of new skills that can be added in addition to the current skills. That may be the only thing one could change without disrupting the space time continuum. Add extra skill sets that any class can use whether it be magicka or stamina.

Minno

Marto wrote: »

Auricle wrote: »

So, basically Skyrim?

I don't think ESO could handle another major overhaul, and I'm not sure I'd want it to be the same as Skyrim anyway. Don't get me wrong, I like the open approach, but MMOs are kind of structure-based games, and if you could eventually do everything on one character, what would the incentive be for rolling alts? That goes against ZoS' mission of making us sink as much time/money into their game as humanly possible.

Agreed.

The system OP proposes sounds good, but classes are too ingrained into the current game to straight up remove them.
No go.

Yea it's too late.

Ideally the classes should have provide buffs/support skills while the weapon lines actually provided the DPS.
This could have allowed them to maintain an elder scrolls flavor, since many of those early games allowed players to pick "classes" with strengths/weaknesses but not so confined like in a Dungeons+ dragons mentality (the ES classes had major/minor skills and it was mostly based on ability use instead of dropping linear points into set trees.)

Minno

Marto wrote: »

Auricle wrote: »

So, basically Skyrim?

I don't think ESO could handle another major overhaul, and I'm not sure I'd want it to be the same as Skyrim anyway. Don't get me wrong, I like the open approach, but MMOs are kind of structure-based games, and if you could eventually do everything on one character, what would the incentive be for rolling alts? That goes against ZoS' mission of making us sink as much time/money into their game as humanly possible.

Agreed.

The system OP proposes sounds good, but classes are too ingrained into the current game to straight up remove them.
No go.

Yea it's too late.

Ideally the classes should have provide buffs/support skills while the weapon lines actually provided the DPS.
This could have allowed them to maintain an elder scrolls flavor, since many of those early games allowed players to pick "classes" with strengths/weaknesses but not so confined like in a Dungeons+ dragons mentality (the ES classes had major/minor skills and it was mostly based on ability use instead of dropping linear points into set trees.)

Dagger fall:


Morrowind:


Oblivion:

OnyxProphet

There's a spectrum of intuitive gameplay design, with strict structure and total flexibility on opposite ends. A good game falls somewhere in the middle, and ESO does this rather well.

Your opinion probably stems from experience as you slide towards the "total flexibility" preference, but new players begin at the other end of the spectrum and would face a larger learning curve. Getting players acclimated quickly and enjoyably is the ultimate goal, and set classes do that.

Also, classes provide additional utility for themes, flavor, and lore. Being a Dragon Knight means something in ESO lore, which adds to the experience.

I instead see further expansion ala Guild and Race skill lines. Available to all and explored later in the gaming lifecycle, non-class expansions are the way to go.

shadowwraith666

I would like classes to be removed from ESO.

Previously classes in TES served as a template for your chosen character they however did not restrict you, your character could learn as many or as little skills as you saw fit, e.g. i would love to have a sorc char that used DK and templar spell abilities.

ZoS wanted to make ESO feel more like the previous TES games hence the removal of the zone barriers, removing classes would make ESO feel more open and allow more variety of character builds.

Minno

OnyxProphet wrote: »

There's a spectrum of intuitive gameplay design, with strict structure and total flexibility on opposite ends. A good game falls somewhere in the middle, and ESO does this rather well.

Your opinion probably stems from experience as you slide towards the "total flexibility" preference, but new players begin at the other end of the spectrum and would face a larger learning curve. Getting players acclimated quickly and enjoyably is the ultimate goal, and set classes do that.

Also, classes provide additional utility for themes, flavor, and lore. Being a Dragon Knight means something in ESO lore, which adds to the experience.

I instead see further expansion ala Guild and Race skill lines. Available to all and explored later in the gaming lifecycle, non-class expansions are the way to go.

According to my friend Rinaldo back in 2014, the dragon knight doesn't really fit into ES lore at all.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/142905/dragonknights-an-tes-mystery

:P

SilentFox22

I was expecting a poll from this lol

I agree completely with OP. I was soooo disappointed when I heard they were making classes for this game. I would still fully support a classless system though. Not sure of the viability of that for the game now though.

Uriel_Nocturne

While I like the idea, OP, and I support it; the realist in me says that the current class structure is too ingrained in the game at this current time.

In order to change it, they'd have to rewrite the entire game and rebuild it from the ground up. I personally don't think they'll take the game offline long enough to make that switch happen.

So while its a nice thought, I don't see it happening.

dodgehopper_ESO

A lot of us want something like this, and a lot of us don't. I still very much enjoy the game, but I would love it if they'd do something like this. It would be nice if they took it even further and added weapon techniques/combinations based on passives learned through masters of different weapons/questing in the game. I would love this, and it'd add a whole other layer and dimension to the game and might deal with animation canceling a bit.

I think the way they'd make something like this happen is to simply keep classes as they are, and add more World/Spellcrafting type skills to the game. In the end class would matter but not confine.

Solariken

I agree, they should just admit that the original dev team made a huge mistake with class design in general. They can certainly still rectify the situation though, and I bet you would bring a ton of TES fans back to ESO @ZOS_RichLambert.

Dissolve the original four, give us the TES schools of magic and perhaps more weapon lines, and create classes comprised of a single skill line only - I like the @ghofmann's idea of Warrior, Thief, Mage, and Healer. These should not be locked classes but the player should be able to change class by visiting a shrine, etc. Craglorn would be a great place to build a class change hub.

corruptedvalor

I support the removal of classes and merging things together. To address a couple things brought up in the forum:

• Removing classes wouldn't effect build diversity at all inherently, there would be the about the number of cookie cutter builds. While build diversity is affected by skill balance and choice restriction, what effects it more is role diversity that the game requires of players. People already flock to class cookie cutter builds.
• It's never too late to change a game. Just look at all the drastic changes WoW has done to it's class and talent system, and it's still going strong (even if I personally disagree with all of its changes). It's definitely something that can't be done lightly, which is probably the biggest reason for the possibly indefinite delay on Spell crafting.

I think the current skill list is too restrictive, and there are many builds I'd like to do that are missing key abilities that could easily fit in, with out of class options feeling very generic and uninteresting, especially for magic builds.

ArchMikem

ghofmann wrote: »

Exactly what I want.

I don't mind classes in general, but the ones we have are haphazardly organized.

Instead of 4 magicka based classes, I'd much rather have Warrior, Thief, Mage, and Healer.

That's not completely balanced though. Warrior and Thief can both be classified as capable damage dealers, while the Mage also could be, a Healer can't, therefore players choosing a Magicka class are limited in playstyle as opposed to choosing Stamina where they could deal damage with either class as well as certainly having their own self heals. I do understand the importance of having a dedicated Healing class but the Templar we have now can dish out some high numbers too.

Or would your vision of a Healer also have some offense skills?

Orjix

no, no, no, nope, please no, no, no. i like the way it is now, if they change it I'm playing a different game

ArchMikem

Orjix wrote: »

no, no, no, nope, please no, no, no. i like the way it is now, if they change it I'm playing a different game

They're not going to. This whole topic is merely hopeful speculation.

AmberLaTerra

I disagree, in fact I believe ESO needs the opposite. We need more classes to get more build diversity and make the game truly play how you want. There are already so many cookie cutter builds out there for the classes, there is a lack of diversity as is. We have about 20-25 builds that really work or you are giving up a lot in something, the best gear/skills/attributes for those builds are known by most as is how to counter build X with build Y.

We need a system where so many builds can work that even unused gear in the current meta has a place where it works not as a nitch but as a true build. Where there can be balance found in any class for rolls and it is not if you want to do X be this class.

dday3six

corruptedvalor wrote: »

I support the removal of classes and merging things together. To address a couple things brought up in the forum:

• Removing classes wouldn't effect build diversity at all inherently, there would be the about the number of cookie cutter builds. While build diversity is affected by skill balance and choice restriction, what effects it more is role diversity that the game requires of players. People already flock to class cookie cutter builds.
• It's never too late to change a game. Just look at all the drastic changes WoW has done to it's class and talent system, and it's still going strong (even if I personally disagree with all of its changes). It's definitely something that can't be done lightly, which is probably the biggest reason for the possibly indefinite delay on Spell crafting.

I think the current skill list is too restrictive, and there are many builds I'd like to do that are missing key abilities that could easily fit in, with out of class options feeling very generic and uninteresting, especially for magic builds.

Here's what would happen. The statistically best skills would be found via theory-crafting and analyzation of testing data. That build would become the meta and other builds would fall behind because they could not compete.

With 4 classes, from a development stand point, there is better control in place to make sure each class has it's own set of weaknesses and strengths. As well as overall thematic elements that add to the feel of each class.

We already see an overlap of many skills being a part of every build because they are better than other options. Take Wall of Elements and Rapid Strikes for example. At least however with classes builds have their own class skills mixed in. Without classes it would just be this is the Tank build, this is the Healer, this is the DPS. At least with classes the are 4 roads to travel. Each with at least mild differences.

Too late is referring to how the players are set and use to one way and a complete upheavel of that would cause more too leave then it would to stay. A game this late in launch would have a great deal of trouble attracting a new playerbase without a complete re-launch.

dodgehopper_ESO

dday3six wrote: »

corruptedvalor wrote: »

I support the removal of classes and merging things together. To address a couple things brought up in the forum:

• Removing classes wouldn't effect build diversity at all inherently, there would be the about the number of cookie cutter builds. While build diversity is affected by skill balance and choice restriction, what effects it more is role diversity that the game requires of players. People already flock to class cookie cutter builds.
• It's never too late to change a game. Just look at all the drastic changes WoW has done to it's class and talent system, and it's still going strong (even if I personally disagree with all of its changes). It's definitely something that can't be done lightly, which is probably the biggest reason for the possibly indefinite delay on Spell crafting.

I think the current skill list is too restrictive, and there are many builds I'd like to do that are missing key abilities that could easily fit in, with out of class options feeling very generic and uninteresting, especially for magic builds.

Here's what would happen. The statistically best skills would be found via theory-crafting and analyzation of testing data. That build would become the meta and other builds would fall behind because they could not compete.

With 4 classes, from a development stand point, there is better control in place to make sure each class has it's own set of weaknesses and strengths. As well as overall thematic elements that add to the feel of each class.

We already see an overlap of many skills being a part of every build because they are better than other options. Take Wall of Elements and Rapid Strikes for example. At least however with classes builds have their own class skills mixed in. Without classes it would just be this is the Tank build, this is the Healer, this is the DPS. At least with classes the are 4 roads to travel. Each with at least mild differences.

Too late is referring to how the players are set and use to one way and a complete upheavel of that would cause more too leave then it would to stay. A game this late in launch would have a great deal of trouble attracting a new playerbase without a complete re-launch.

This is why I recommended an introduction of Skill lines (such as the aforementioned Spellcrafting) which could do much to create that diversity people look forward to without completely removing the theme of classes.

dday3six

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

corruptedvalor wrote: »

I support the removal of classes and merging things together. To address a couple things brought up in the forum:

• Removing classes wouldn't effect build diversity at all inherently, there would be the about the number of cookie cutter builds. While build diversity is affected by skill balance and choice restriction, what effects it more is role diversity that the game requires of players. People already flock to class cookie cutter builds.
• It's never too late to change a game. Just look at all the drastic changes WoW has done to it's class and talent system, and it's still going strong (even if I personally disagree with all of its changes). It's definitely something that can't be done lightly, which is probably the biggest reason for the possibly indefinite delay on Spell crafting.

I think the current skill list is too restrictive, and there are many builds I'd like to do that are missing key abilities that could easily fit in, with out of class options feeling very generic and uninteresting, especially for magic builds.

Here's what would happen. The statistically best skills would be found via theory-crafting and analyzation of testing data. That build would become the meta and other builds would fall behind because they could not compete.

With 4 classes, from a development stand point, there is better control in place to make sure each class has it's own set of weaknesses and strengths. As well as overall thematic elements that add to the feel of each class.

We already see an overlap of many skills being a part of every build because they are better than other options. Take Wall of Elements and Rapid Strikes for example. At least however with classes builds have their own class skills mixed in. Without classes it would just be this is the Tank build, this is the Healer, this is the DPS. At least with classes the are 4 roads to travel. Each with at least mild differences.

Too late is referring to how the players are set and use to one way and a complete upheavel of that would cause more too leave then it would to stay. A game this late in launch would have a great deal of trouble attracting a new playerbase without a complete re-launch.

This is why I recommended an introduction of Skill lines (such as the aforementioned Spellcrafting) which could do much to create that diversity people look forward to without completely removing the theme of classes.

More skill lines would be the best way to infuse new ways of playing. The biggest issue is having enough skill points. I personally think skill points should only be for class skills and passives while other skill lines should be unlocked through some sort of exp system. That way new skill lines can be introduced without fear of players not having enough points to go around.

Spell-crafting would need to be tightly controlled. Otherwise the developers don't have a good measure to scale content with. If the width of what players are going to approach content with is too wide it makes finding the sweet spot for content difficulty even harder. ZOS already struggles with that currently, and I don't believe adding more complexity would help.

At that point I don't think it would be a system that conveys what the average player thinks of as crafting their own spells/skills.

TheShadowScout

I think that particular ship has sailed and sunk a long time ago... can't really see them throwing all their game out of the window and paying the developer team to come up with a completely different system.

Not to mention, as has been mentioned, "classless" can be quite iffy for MMOs - for one it tends to go all "clone wars" as everyone goes for the same cookie-cutter "super-effective" build, for another the "candoitall" option usually is not that favorable in multi-player games, where tactics that require people to specialize make for better groupyness...

Generally I'd say, let 'em keep the "classless system" ideas for their next game. FallOut MMO, anyone?

Lucious90

See again the problem with a classless system, is you come up with a combo through theory crafting and such, and it is miles above every other combo of skills, that gets nerfed, then what? The majority of people who didnt break the game with the combo now lose some viability, and with zos record of balance that would mean all out war. Atleast in a class system, you can dial back a certain class ability or the OP combo enabler without throwing the entire game into chaos every time you need to balance or address an issue.

Vorien

It might not be ideal but it would be interesting to see your character start off as a blank slate only being able to learn weapon abilities and slowly progress into the 4 classes by choice via quests, possibly adding the ability to swap class and have a few key skills that can be crossed over similar to Final Fantasy 14.

AtAfternoon

You could unlock the classes without throwing them out entirely. Break up the classes but have them as skill-lines, and give them debuffs (say passives from the class trees not working when you have class skills from different classes equipped or something) when combined to not make it spiral out of control.

You can justify it lorewise it by all classes drawing their power from different sources and it being incredibly taxing and hard on the user to efficiently combine the skills.

idk

shadowwraith666 wrote: »

I would like classes to be removed from ESO.

Previously classes in TES served as a template for your chosen character they however did not restrict you, your character could learn as many or as little skills as you saw fit, e.g. i would love to have a sorc char that used DK and templar spell abilities.

ZoS wanted to make ESO feel more like the previous TES games hence the removal of the zone barriers, removing classes would make ESO feel more open and allow more variety of character builds.

Being this is not a single player game that idea does not work as well. It also does not allow more variety in builds as it would become a single build per role/activity. To raid effectively it would be specific weapons and specific skills and a smaller number of set bonuses that are useful.

Really just a bad short sighted idea.