Official Discussion Thread for "Update 11, Featuring Shadows of the Hist: Launch Details"

dimensional

Faulgor wrote: »

If SotH was <=1000 crowns, I'd be more likely to spend additional crowns on these new features. At the least, I would have expected to find appearance change tokens in the bundle with SotH, but nope. Just EXP scrolls again.

Yes, evidence points more and more to this release being mismanaged, to be honest. The dungeon DLC by itself should be 1000 crowns, and the bundle should include one of each of those tokens and maybe a hairstyle/adornment or two. We don't want or need experience scrolls in bundles anymore, especially this kind of DLC of which new players probably aren't the target audience, who would therefore want those XP scrolls. Please @ZOS_JessicaFolsom talk to whoever you need to talk to and express these concerns with some of your colleagues, we would really appreciate it!

nimander99

Dang, I nailed the release date in another post the other day *Pats self on back then eats cookie*

At first I was kind of ambivalent about this update... But I'm honestly kinda jazzed for all the costume and character appearance stuff coming.

RomansXXI

And again with the console delay. Why not release on all platforms the same time, it makes us console players seem under valued.

dimensional

RomansXXI wrote: »

And again with the console delay. Why not release on all platforms the same time, it makes us console players seem under valued.

Because at the end of the PTS testing phase, the latest changes and updates from the test build are submitted to Microsoft and Sony who has to perform their own authenticating and from that point it's out of ZOS' hands. It's not a "delay" like you think, just a necessary but unfortunate hitch in the process of migrating a new build to consoles.

maboleth

Well, they clearly want you/us to be ESO+ members. That way every dlc is free to use as long as you are subscribed.

dimensional wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

Well, they clearly want you/us to be ESO+ members. That way every dlc is free to use as long as you are subscribed.

Except you're still paying for it, so it's not free.

Mmm... what part wasn't clear to you? As an ESO+ member you have a free access to all DLCs ever released.

nimander99

dimensional wrote: »

RomansXXI wrote: »

And again with the console delay. Why not release on all platforms the same time, it makes us console players seem under valued.

Because at the end of the PTS testing phase, the latest changes and updates from the test build are submitted to Microsoft and Sony who has to perform their own authenticating and from that point it's out of ZOS' hands. It's not a "delay" like you think, just a necessary but unfortunate hitch in the process of migrating a new build to consoles.

You are wasting your time explaining this @dimensional ... The poster is well aware of why its a staggered release date, he/she/it/null just wants to complain.

dimensional

maboleth wrote: »

Well, they clearly want you/us to be ESO+ members. That way every dlc is free to use as long as you are subscribed.

dimensional wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

Well, they clearly want you/us to be ESO+ members. That way every dlc is free to use as long as you are subscribed.

Except you're still paying for it, so it's not free.

Mmm... what part wasn't clear to you? As an ESO+ member you have a free access to all DLCs ever released.

It's not free, because you're paying for it. It comes as part of the ESO+ package, yes, but it is definitively and objectively not free.

maboleth

^ You're paying for subscription, wherever they release 10 or 1 dlcs per year, your subscription stays the same. So yes, DLCs are free as long as you are subscribed - they come bundled with the package.

My whole point was, Zenimax wants you to be subscribed, that's why, I suppose, crown prices for this DLC is higher than regular, thus subscribing to ESO+ seems a whole lot better idea.

dimensional

DLCs aren't free because you're paying to access them, regardless of how you choose to look at it. This is an objective fact. It's like saying the crafting bags, the increased experience gain and the 1500 crowns you get every month are free if you just subscribe... no that's what you get for "paying" for a subscription, ergo they are not free.

nimander99

dimensional wrote: »

DLCs aren't free because you're paying to access them, regardless of how you choose to look at it. This is an objective fact. It's like saying the crafting bags, the increased experience gain and the 1500 crowns you get every month are free if you just subscribe... no that's what you get for "paying" for a subscription, ergo they are not free.

"You can't fix stupid" said some guy in some movie once.

But you can keep tryin if'n ya want bro

HELLB0UNDH0UND

nimander99 wrote: »

"You can't fix stupid" said some guy in some movie once.

But you can keep tryin if'n ya want bro

Wasn't that comedian Ron White?

Rosveen

You promised pricing info. Where are the prices of re-customization tokens?

Helluin

I've never been a great fan of midsummer releases and major patches because of several reasons.
Gladly the max CP gear is still 160, so the new DB stuff won't be too soon outdated.
Anyway from PTS it seems an interesting small DLC for utilities, dungeons and Cyrodiil.

Aerius_Sygale

Glaiceana wrote: »

Looking forward to this! And its released on my birthday too Going to change a few things on my main character with appearance change. Looking forward to the changes in the base game patch, especially changes to the clothing surveys, CP cap increase and BOP trading!

Yeah, CP cap increase is only 30 points though... -_-

Enodoc

I agree that 1,000 Crowns would probably be enough, but I don't think any DLC will be less than 1,500. That's the amount you get for one month of ESO Plus, so it would make sense for that to be a lower limit. Consider: you decide to get a month of ESO Plus to test out the DLC. If you like it, you use that month's Crowns to buy it. Similarly, I wouldn't expect any DLC to be more than 4,500 Crowns, since that's the amount you get for ESO Plus in one quarter, and we get a new DLC every quarter.

Zaldan wrote: »

game features only available through cash shop, nasty

They're not really game features, they're services. Things that are entirely unneeded that exist only for QoL. You had full opportunity to create your character as you wanted during Character Creation. If you decide you want to change something at a later date, you shouldn't have done it wrong in the first place*.

* Not allowing for the camera rotation/zoom bug that was present at launch, as that was ZOS at fault; a free appearance token would be a nice gesture to fix early-adopter characters created incorrectly due to this bug.
* Also not allowing for the fact that ZOS are changing the racial passives. A free race change token would be a nice gesture to combat characters crated based on racial benefits that no longer exist.

Retzee

You know i was actually hyped when i saw that we were able to dye our costumes but sike eso plus features again, overall im not happy at all. If you guys ever make "Eso plus only Dlcs" i wont be surprised. Stop making 2 sides and let everyone enjoy the content i say.

staracino_ESO

Enodoc wrote: »

I agree that 1,000 Crowns would probably be enough, but I don't think any DLC will be less than 1,500. That's the amount you get for one month of ESO Plus, so it would make sense for that to be a lower limit. Consider: you decide to get a month of ESO Plus to test out the DLC. If you like it, you use that month's Crowns to buy it. Similarly, I wouldn't expect any DLC to be more than 4,500 Crowns, since that's the amount you get for ESO Plus in one quarter, and we get a new DLC every quarter.

Zaldan wrote: »

game features only available through cash shop, nasty

They're not really game features, they're services. Things that are entirely unneeded that exist only for QoL. You had full opportunity to create your character as you wanted during Character Creation. If you decide you want to change something at a later date, you shouldn't have done it wrong in the first place*.

* Not allowing for the camera rotation/zoom bug that was present at launch, as that was ZOS at fault; a free appearance token would be a nice gesture to fix early-adopter characters created incorrectly due to this bug.
* Also not allowing for the fact that ZOS are changing the racial passives. A free race change token would be a nice gesture to combat characters crated based on racial benefits that no longer exist.

This, please.

argouru

So how much will the change tokens for name, race and appearance cost? Will they be one per purchase, or will you get a couple of tokens per purchase?

Mulcibur

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom The article says that "there's even a pack that includes all the existing hair styles (90+ in all!) available for purchase that will allow you to freely change your hair style to anything that is currently available on the character select screen, as often as you like. (Normal race and/or gender restrictions do apply.)"

If one were to purchase this bundle, and then go and change your race and gender using a token, would you have the styles for your new race/gender? In other words, do you get the entire bundle regardless of race/gender and only certain styles can be applied or do you get specific styles based on your race/gender at the time of purchase?

dimensional

No, you still get them all. You just won't be able to put them on depending on restrictions, but you will still have them unlocked for other characters or if you change your character again.

Zabernat

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom any chance of a filter or check box that will allow you to disable seeing the hair styles/adornments/tattoos you can't apply to your character while searching the collections menu? Other than that I'm SUPER excited for the additional customization options.

Zabernat

Anyone else just excited about the new stuff coming?? The only thing that'd make this better for me is news of more normal only dungeons getting a vet version or news that the new dungeons would have completely different experiences for normal vs veteran.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Enodoc wrote: »

They're not really game features, they're services. Things that are entirely unneeded that exist only for QoL. You had full opportunity to create your character as you wanted during Character Creation. If you decide you want to change something at a later date, you shouldn't have done it wrong in the first place*.

* Not allowing for the camera rotation/zoom bug that was present at launch, as that was ZOS at fault; a free appearance token would be a nice gesture to fix early-adopter characters created incorrectly due to this bug.
* Also not allowing for the fact that ZOS are changing the racial passives. A free race change token would be a nice gesture to combat characters crated based on racial benefits that no longer exist.

@Enodoc , please allow me to completely disagree with you on this. Calling it "game feature" or "quality of life services" is pure rethorics.

The crafting bag is something game-changing for whoever is into farming/crafting/trading. That's 90% of players. Dyes and beauty parlor are game-changing features for whoever is sensitive to the appearance of their characters : again 90% of players. As to "do your char right in the first place", sorry but that's truly invalid. Everyone likes to change haircut or hair color, be it ingame or IRL, that's perfectly normal. And role players are entitled to make their character look older, sicker, healthier, fatter, thinner, whatever, depending on the story they're building for them.
Sure, you don't need crafting bags nor dyes nor new haircuts to reach top rankings in PvE or PvP. But you know just as well as I do that only a small percentage of players care about those things, and the vast majority enjoys the many, many aspects that ESO offers besides combat. And those are deeply modified by the presence or absence of such features.

The fact that these "features" (crafting bags, dyes, appearance changes) are behind a paywall separate from the DLC itself, or completely locked behind ESO+ changes the terms of the choices that was given to us by ZOS in March 2015 when TU launched. It was ONE GAME with TWO different payment methods. What we have now is TWO different game experiences, at two different prices. Playing without subbing now provides a clearly downgraded game experience.

I'm not angry (I simply resubbed... ), but I'm worried. Why do you think ZOS wants us to sub so badly and so massively ? For money, sure, but they always needed money, so why this drastic change now ? My theory is that they don't have enough content ready. They can't keep up the pace of 4 big DLCs a year, as promised. They can't deliver something big like Orsinium every three months. Therefore they'll have to deliver small, tiny bits of content, that cannot be priced highly in crowns (such as : these two dungeons for 1.5K crowns).

My sad guess is that we will be forced to sub and content-starved, just like we were from novembre 2014 until august 2015. Sad perspective.

Jayne_Doe

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

They're not really game features, they're services. Things that are entirely unneeded that exist only for QoL. You had full opportunity to create your character as you wanted during Character Creation. If you decide you want to change something at a later date, you shouldn't have done it wrong in the first place*.

* Not allowing for the camera rotation/zoom bug that was present at launch, as that was ZOS at fault; a free appearance token would be a nice gesture to fix early-adopter characters created incorrectly due to this bug.
* Also not allowing for the fact that ZOS are changing the racial passives. A free race change token would be a nice gesture to combat characters crated based on racial benefits that no longer exist.

@Enodoc , please allow me to completely disagree with you on this. Calling it "game feature" or "quality of life services" is pure rethorics.

The crafting bag is something game-changing for whoever is into farming/crafting/trading. That's 90% of players. Dyes and beauty parlor are game-changing features for whoever is sensitive to the appearance of their characters : again 90% of players. As to "do your char right in the first place", sorry but that's truly invalid. Everyone likes to change haircut or hair color, be it ingame or IRL, that's perfectly normal. And role players are entitled to make their character look older, sicker, healthier, fatter, thinner, whatever, depending on the story they're building for them.
Sure, you don't need crafting bags nor dyes nor new haircuts to reach top rankings in PvE or PvP. But you know just as well as I do that only a small percentage of players care about those things, and the vast majority enjoys the many, many aspects that ESO offers besides combat. And those are deeply modified by the presence or absence of such features.

The fact that these "features" (crafting bags, dyes, appearance changes) are behind a paywall separate from the DLC itself, or completely locked behind ESO+ changes the terms of the choices that was given to us by ZOS in March 2015 when TU launched. It was ONE GAME with TWO different payment methods. What we have now is TWO different game experiences, at two different prices. Playing without subbing now provides a clearly downgraded game experience.

I'm not angry (I simply resubbed... ), but I'm worried. Why do you think ZOS wants us to sub so badly and so massively ? For money, sure, but they always needed money, so why this drastic change now ? My theory is that they don't have enough content ready. They can't keep up the pace of 4 big DLCs a year, as promised. They can't deliver something big like Orsinium every three months. Therefore they'll have to deliver small, tiny bits of content, that cannot be priced highly in crowns (such as : these two dungeons for 1.5K crowns).

My sad guess is that we will be forced to sub and content-starved, just like we were from novembre 2014 until august 2015. Sad perspective.

You pretty much summed up what I was going to say. What I wanted to add was that being an ESO+ member on XB is a nightmare - it DOESN'T WORK PROPERLY! It is unreliable at best. I got so tired of having to micromanage my monthly crown balance and submitting tickets when I didn't get them. In addition, I got tired of periodically losing access to my DLC and in-game benefits. Once, I had research that took an extra 2 days because I had lost my ESO+ status in-game. Thank goodness none of my characters were in a DLC zone when I lost access.

So, for me, resubbing is not an option. Until they actually fix the issues with ESO+ on XB, I won't be subbing. They want more subs, at least on console? Fix the problems with ESO+! Plain and simple. If they do, I will gladly sub again.

Which brings up your point about the divide that is being introduced between those who sub and those who support the game by making purchases in the Crown Store. I've purchased all the DLC except IC (I don't PVP) and most of the costumes, a little over half of the limited time items (including the $40 senche), as well as a few other mounts/pets. I'm still a loyal, paying player, but I'm locked out of the crafting bag and the ability to dye my costumes exactly how I want at a dye station. I shudder to think about how much of the housing system will be locked behind ESO+. When I unsubbed, I considered paying for DLC and Crown Store items to be good enough for me to be treated as a loyal player, but I have to sub if I want some QoL features? Again, I would still be subbed if not for the ESO+ issues on XB, and the fact that they keep pushing ESO+ without fixing the existing problems just adds to the frustration for me.

I appreciate that they included dye stamps as an alternative for non-ESO+ players, but I hope that the "modest price" is 500 crowns or less. Ideally, they shouldn't cost any more than a Crown XP scroll. Now, how about introducing a Crown Store alternative to the crafting bag - I posted elsewhere on this topic and won't go into all the details of my proposal here, but the basic idea is that there would be separate crafting bags to purchase for each craft, they'd each take up a bank slot, items have to be manually added to these bags and taken out (except for at crafting stations), and they would hold only half (or less) of what the ESO+ crafting bag does.

I think you hit the nail on the head that these QoL items are being placed behind ESO+ as a way to keep people subbed. Since the DLC access perk isn't as desirable considering the smaller and smaller DLC we've seen, and presumably will continue to see, they have to give a reason for people to remain subbed. So, pretty much if you want the best experience, you have to sub; otherwise, you're a sub-par player.

Knuckels1987

Whens the update 11 coming to the console?

anitajoneb17_ESO

Knuckels1987 wrote: »

Whens the update 11 coming to the console?

I guess, as usual, a couple of weeks after PC release, that would be 3rd week of september.

EDIT : August 16th (mentioned in the article).

Knuckels1987

dimensional wrote: »

RomansXXI wrote: »

And again with the console delay. Why not release on all platforms the same time, it makes us console players seem under valued.

Because at the end of the PTS testing phase, the latest changes and updates from the test build are submitted to Microsoft and Sony who has to perform their own authenticating and from that point it's out of ZOS' hands. It's not a "delay" like you think, just a necessary but unfortunate hitch in the process of migrating a new build to consoles.

maybe thats why the new dlc r Always full of bugs on console. like in the dark brotherhood dlc. tons of reloading screens, gamecrashes, ...etc

Enodoc

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

They're not really game features, they're services. Things that are entirely unneeded that exist only for QoL. You had full opportunity to create your character as you wanted during Character Creation. If you decide you want to change something at a later date, you shouldn't have done it wrong in the first place*.

* Not allowing for the camera rotation/zoom bug that was present at launch, as that was ZOS at fault; a free appearance token would be a nice gesture to fix early-adopter characters created incorrectly due to this bug.
* Also not allowing for the fact that ZOS are changing the racial passives. A free race change token would be a nice gesture to combat characters crated based on racial benefits that no longer exist.

@Enodoc , please allow me to completely disagree with you on this. Calling it "game feature" or "quality of life services" is pure rethorics.

The crafting bag is something game-changing for whoever is into farming/crafting/trading. That's 90% of players. Dyes and beauty parlor are game-changing features for whoever is sensitive to the appearance of their characters : again 90% of players. As to "do your char right in the first place", sorry but that's truly invalid. Everyone likes to change haircut or hair color, be it ingame or IRL, that's perfectly normal. And role players are entitled to make their character look older, sicker, healthier, fatter, thinner, whatever, depending on the story they're building for them.
Sure, you don't need crafting bags nor dyes nor new haircuts to reach top rankings in PvE or PvP. But you know just as well as I do that only a small percentage of players care about those things, and the vast majority enjoys the many, many aspects that ESO offers besides combat. And those are deeply modified by the presence or absence of such features.

The fact that these "features" (crafting bags, dyes, appearance changes) are behind a paywall separate from the DLC itself, or completely locked behind ESO+ changes the terms of the choices that was given to us by ZOS in March 2015 when TU launched. It was ONE GAME with TWO different payment methods. What we have now is TWO different game experiences, at two different prices. Playing without subbing now provides a clearly downgraded game experience.

I'm not angry (I simply resubbed... ), but I'm worried. Why do you think ZOS wants us to sub so badly and so massively ? For money, sure, but they always needed money, so why this drastic change now ? My theory is that they don't have enough content ready. They can't keep up the pace of 4 big DLCs a year, as promised. They can't deliver something big like Orsinium every three months. Therefore they'll have to deliver small, tiny bits of content, that cannot be priced highly in crowns (such as : these two dungeons for 1.5K crowns).

My sad guess is that we will be forced to sub and content-starved, just like we were from novembre 2014 until august 2015. Sad perspective.

Fair dos, thanks for providing a detailed opposition post!

On semantics - "game features" are something I would expect to be a required feature of the game, of which, Character Creation is one. Once you've created your character and started the game, I would never expect to be able to re-enter Character Creation again. Minor customisation features (ie, hairstyles, adornments, and the like) are a valid thing to change as you go along, and I agree with that, but changes beyond that are something I would not expect. That's why I would consider it a "QoL service" that you would need to pay real money for, and not a "game feature" that you would pay for with in-game gold.

The roleplay aspect is a good one, and something I hadn't thought of from that angle - for me, since there is limited passage of time in the game (compared to something like Fable II, for example, where decades pass as part of the story), my character wouldn't suddenly look older/sicker/etc, as effectively no time has passed.

Extra features for ESO Plus players that are persistent were sorely needed, so I'm not particularly bothered by that. There's a Crown Store alternative for costume dyes and the fact that there are so many colour combinations available through that is great. Considering ZOS weren't even sure whether they wanted to give us costume dyes at all, I think having a set choice of colour schemes is a good compromise. Playing without subbing is exactly the same as it always was; playing with a sub gives you a bit more cosmetic liberty than before, and that's all.

VerboseQuips

I really hope we'll have the weapon dyeing some day in the future. Also, I noticed that some of the characters in the pictures contained in the article are wearing some jewelry, for example a necklace. I am wondering, will the necklaces and rings be made visible (and dyeable) in the future? Those two features (dyeable weapons, visible jewelry) would complete the cosmetic functionalities, in my opinion.

Also I hope that the pre-launch events will include some Loremaster's archives. I miss those.

As I am talking about lore and cosmetics... There is a quest in Ebonheart where it is requested to gather some plants called 'ashreed', the in-game description of which states: "This small bundle of stiff, inflexible reeds could be woven together to protect one's head (or a Hist sapling) from the elements." This seems to imply that either the Dunmer or the Argonians use it in order to craft hats. So I guess it would make a nice, lore-friendly hat for the Crown Store.

VerboseQuips

Enodoc wrote: »

* Not allowing for the camera rotation/zoom bug that was present at launch, as that was ZOS at fault; a free appearance token would be a nice gesture to fix early-adopter characters created incorrectly due to this bug.
* Also not allowing for the fact that ZOS are changing the racial passives. A free race change token would be a nice gesture to combat characters crated based on racial benefits that no longer exist.

It is quite funny, in my opinion, that my best-looking character, a handsome Breton templar, was created precisely during those early days with buggy cam.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I'm not angry (I simply resubbed... ), but I'm worried. Why do you think ZOS wants us to sub so badly and so massively ? For money, sure, but they always needed money, so why this drastic change now ? My theory is that they don't have enough content ready. They can't keep up the pace of 4 big DLCs a year, as promised. They can't deliver something big like Orsinium every three months. Therefore they'll have to deliver small, tiny bits of content, that cannot be priced highly in crowns (such as : these two dungeons for 1.5K crowns).

My sad guess is that we will be forced to sub and content-starved, just like we were from novembre 2014 until august 2015. Sad perspective.

Lack of ready content could explain why they didn't announce the future DLCs with trailers and stuff at E3.
Also, the fact that Murkmire apparently was discarded and transformed into this two-dungeon pack seems to substantiate your fear that there is maybe not enough content ready and they need more money. I am quite disappointed with this decision, but I hope we'll still learn more about the Nagas and the Behemoths. The dungeons seem to be stuffed with lore, which is a very good point.

Another explaination for this change, which would be a much nicer one, could be that ZOS be asked by Beth to keep some secrets on Murkmire. Maybe TES6, officially scheduled for the 22.22.22 ( ), is supposed to explore the Black Marsh...