REMOVE OR NERF RESOURCE POISONS

fred.thomsonb16_ESO

I've had enough of dying to pleb groups whose only strength is numbers and poison, fix it please you dirty zerglings.

outsideworld76

Strenght in numbers is a valid strategy imo. Heroes die so easy

artal

outsideworld76 wrote: »

Strenght in numbers is a valid strategy imo. Heroes die so easy

But they numbers is strength by itself, poisons are something that boost strength of bigger group even more. Zeni really made poisons to strong for little to no skill required and are dumbing down pvp.

fred.thomsonb16_ESO

It doesn't help some of the better known faces of eso are incorporating poisons into their build videos, before the last week there wasn't nearly as many with resource poisons in slot, now everyone and their mother have joined in. It might be a lower proc rate than an enchant but when you have 5+ people spamming them in your general direction its 100%, what's more is there's no counter.

Ravinsild

On the other hand the more diluted they are the shorter they last and they only last for like 2.5 seconds anyway...most of the ones I've made last 1.2 seconds.

vamp_emily

It seems like everyone wants to nerf for all the wrong reasons, the real problem is zerges / campaign balance. Focus on the real problem.

Ourorboros

Let's be realistic. Why shouldn't more casual, non-min/maxer players group to take down superior players? They would be foolish to solo better players, when it only ends in their death. So get salty over whatever you think is unfair or taking advantage. We get AP from kills, not dying, so all's fair in love and war, (except exploits and cheating).

Lava_Croft

Poisons fit perfectly in the @Wrobel plan to make superior numbers the only thing that matters in PvP.

driosketch

3v5 you guys are probably fine even if all 5 slot poisons. Unless any of the five are actually decent, in which case some those fights will go the other way. If you're expecting to 3v20, those 20 better be lvl 10s first time in Cyrodiil.

Kalebron

We fought a single dragonknight yesterday who would not die, so I equipped a poison that makes magicka and stamina cost up to 60% extra, and it was then and only then he started to get weakened. I think the poisons are appropriate and beneficial and maybe even need to drain magicka and stamina in addition to make it cost extra. At least I am not asked for a character nerf.

jello

Poisons was the one thing eso pvp didnt need.

Sandman929

Way back when I was leveling Alchemy and thought to myself "I wish they would bring poison crafting"...
Stupid, past me.

bardx86

Kalebron wrote: »

We fought a single dragonknight yesterday who would not die, so I equipped a poison that makes magicka and stamina cost up to 60% extra, and it was then and only then he started to get weakened. I think the poisons are appropriate and beneficial and maybe even need to drain magicka and stamina in addition to make it cost extra. At least I am not asked for a character nerf.

Take that mentality against a sorc who's whole defense is based on his resources and he screwed. All these poisons do is lessen the time i can actually fight in the the game. The whole reason i play this game is to fight. Why would anyone with half a brain create a process that take me away from the whole reason i enjoy playing there dam game. Its moronic.

fred.thomsonb16_ESO

Ourorboros wrote: »

Let's be realistic. Why shouldn't more casual, non-min/maxer players group to take down superior players? They would be foolish to solo better players, when it only ends in their death. So get salty over whatever you think is unfair or taking advantage. We get AP from kills, not dying, so all's fair in love and war, (except exploits and cheating).

The thing is they do without resource poisons, the other thing is people who know what they are doing can run in a group of 3-4, use resource poisons, healing buffs and damage mitigation / healing reduction sets to abuse anyone who fights them, experienced or not. Numbers will always be numbers, they do not need extra help, players using these poisons on strong builds in groups will negate these numbers. If you remove poisons from the equation group players and large scale players will be in exactly the same place, therefore only the soloing player base is being negatively affected.

AJ_1988

Nerf the nerf wanters. Problem solved

fred.thomsonb16_ESO

AJ_1988 wrote: »

Nerf the nerf wanters. Problem solved

What type of balance is a mechanic with no counter? We know where the Wrobel counter thought pattern takes this game so asking for a nerf is the safest bet....don't you think?

Lucius_Aelius

I still don't think Poisons should override Enchantments, I think they should both be active simultaneously and each proc individually of the other, but I've changed my mind on Poisons in general. After using them a bit and playing with them used against me a fair amount they've grown on me as a feature, they're short acting and don't proc very often.

They could probably be toned down a bit, I don't think you should have several stacked on at once as long as they're different poisons, if they're going to have them stack on players then the effect duration should reduce like it does when crafting a poison with multiple effects, or just have each override the other with only one person's poison active on any one person at a time. Apart from all that though, I like them, I didn't think much of them as an addition before but now I want them in the game, I just think they need a few tweaks.

Again though, it's the overriding enchantments that I don't like, it invalidates having them in the first place. I went through a great deal of time, effort, and even Gold buying Runes to level up my Enchanting, and while it's still useful for Enchanting things that aren't weapons it's very disappointing to have one of the most important Enchantments required for my Build to work well (Weapon Damage Enchantment) be completely unused in PvP if I want to make use of these new Poisons.

I understand power creep can be a very real problem, but that's no reason to introduce new features that invalidate old ones and the effort we put into leveling them up, and the Enchantments we choose are an integral part of our builds that should not be so readily discarded. I don't think that power creep would be any more of an issue if they made both Enchantments and Poisons be active simultaneously, neither are powerful enough to make a huge difference, and it's not every day they'll be adding a new feature of this sort that overrides something already in the game, so giving in to power creep on this isn't likely to be a slippery slope when this situation hasn't happened before and will likely not happen again.

ToRelax

Kalebron wrote: »

We fought a single dragonknight yesterday who would not die, so I equipped a poison that makes magicka and stamina cost up to 60% extra, and it was then and only then he started to get weakened. I think the poisons are appropriate and beneficial and maybe even need to drain magicka and stamina in addition to make it cost extra. At least I am not asked for a character nerf.

This is disgusting. If you can't kill him with your group, he should not die.

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

I still don't think Poisons should override Enchantments, I think they should both be active simultaneously and each proc individually of the other, but I've changed my mind on Poisons in general. After using them a bit and playing with them used against me a fair amount they've grown on me as a feature, they're short acting and don't proc very often.

They could probably be toned down a bit, I don't think you should have several stacked on at once as long as they're different poisons, if they're going to have them stack on players then the effect duration should reduce like it does when crafting a poison with multiple effects, or just have each override the other with only one person's poison active on any one person at a time. Apart from all that though, I like them, I didn't think much of them as an addition before but now I want them in the game, I just think they need a few tweaks.

Again though, it's the overriding enchantments that I don't like, it invalidates having them in the first place. I went through a great deal of time, effort, and even Gold buying Runes to level up my Enchanting, and while it's still useful for Enchanting things that aren't weapons it's very disappointing to have one of the most important Enchantments required for my Build to work well (Weapon Damage Enchantment) be completely unused in PvP if I want to make use of these new Poisons.

I understand power creep can be a very real problem, but that's no reason to introduce new features that invalidate old ones and the effort we put into leveling them up, and the Enchantments we choose are an integral part of our builds that should not be so readily discarded. I don't think that power creep would be any more of an issue if they made both Enchantments and Poisons be active simultaneously, neither are powerful enough to make a huge difference, and it's not every day they'll be adding a new feature of this sort that overrides something already in the game, so giving in to power creep on this isn't likely to be a slippery slope when this situation hasn't happened before and will likely not happen again.

They should not coexist in order to not make them mandatory for everyone.

Lucius_Aelius

ToRelax wrote: »

Kalebron wrote: »

We fought a single dragonknight yesterday who would not die, so I equipped a poison that makes magicka and stamina cost up to 60% extra, and it was then and only then he started to get weakened. I think the poisons are appropriate and beneficial and maybe even need to drain magicka and stamina in addition to make it cost extra. At least I am not asked for a character nerf.

This is disgusting. If you can't kill him with your group, he should not die.

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

I still don't think Poisons should override Enchantments, I think they should both be active simultaneously and each proc individually of the other, but I've changed my mind on Poisons in general. After using them a bit and playing with them used against me a fair amount they've grown on me as a feature, they're short acting and don't proc very often.

They could probably be toned down a bit, I don't think you should have several stacked on at once as long as they're different poisons, if they're going to have them stack on players then the effect duration should reduce like it does when crafting a poison with multiple effects, or just have each override the other with only one person's poison active on any one person at a time. Apart from all that though, I like them, I didn't think much of them as an addition before but now I want them in the game, I just think they need a few tweaks.

Again though, it's the overriding enchantments that I don't like, it invalidates having them in the first place. I went through a great deal of time, effort, and even Gold buying Runes to level up my Enchanting, and while it's still useful for Enchanting things that aren't weapons it's very disappointing to have one of the most important Enchantments required for my Build to work well (Weapon Damage Enchantment) be completely unused in PvP if I want to make use of these new Poisons.

I understand power creep can be a very real problem, but that's no reason to introduce new features that invalidate old ones and the effort we put into leveling them up, and the Enchantments we choose are an integral part of our builds that should not be so readily discarded. I don't think that power creep would be any more of an issue if they made both Enchantments and Poisons be active simultaneously, neither are powerful enough to make a huge difference, and it's not every day they'll be adding a new feature of this sort that overrides something already in the game, so giving in to power creep on this isn't likely to be a slippery slope when this situation hasn't happened before and will likely not happen again.

They should not coexist in order to not make them mandatory for everyone.

@ToRelax

Potions are already mandatory for everyone, but lots of people don't bother making their own and either buy from others or buy cheap NPC sold potions, and poisons would be the same. Yes some people would put in the time and effort to farm the materials and make their own but people wouldn't have to just to compete any more than they already need to for potions, and poisons require the same materials anyway for the most part so anyone farming for one is automatically farming for both. Anyone who doesn't want to bother farming or buying from other players (which is pricey) can buy the from NPC's, just like with potions there's an understanding that you won't be quite as good but you'll still be competitive against most opponents.

It adds slightly more work for people getting ready to PvP, hardly any at all more than is already necessary, so I for one fail to see what harm would be done from doing as I suggest and making both Enchantments and Poisons active at once.

DocFrost72

Watch someone like Vortexman survive a 12 man raid with a healer in tow, watch him slowly wittle down all twelve.

I don't mind poisons since there are plenty of alternatives. Purge, purifying rit, dodge roll, careful management of resources for the pitiful 2.4 seconds you are actually affected, etc etc. I would be fine with a clear way to know when you have been poisoned (say, dripping green venom from a character model). Of course, the best way to deal with a group running poisons in an alliance verse alliance game is to...group up

ToRelax

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Kalebron wrote: »

We fought a single dragonknight yesterday who would not die, so I equipped a poison that makes magicka and stamina cost up to 60% extra, and it was then and only then he started to get weakened. I think the poisons are appropriate and beneficial and maybe even need to drain magicka and stamina in addition to make it cost extra. At least I am not asked for a character nerf.

This is disgusting. If you can't kill him with your group, he should not die.

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

I still don't think Poisons should override Enchantments, I think they should both be active simultaneously and each proc individually of the other, but I've changed my mind on Poisons in general. After using them a bit and playing with them used against me a fair amount they've grown on me as a feature, they're short acting and don't proc very often.

They could probably be toned down a bit, I don't think you should have several stacked on at once as long as they're different poisons, if they're going to have them stack on players then the effect duration should reduce like it does when crafting a poison with multiple effects, or just have each override the other with only one person's poison active on any one person at a time. Apart from all that though, I like them, I didn't think much of them as an addition before but now I want them in the game, I just think they need a few tweaks.

Again though, it's the overriding enchantments that I don't like, it invalidates having them in the first place. I went through a great deal of time, effort, and even Gold buying Runes to level up my Enchanting, and while it's still useful for Enchanting things that aren't weapons it's very disappointing to have one of the most important Enchantments required for my Build to work well (Weapon Damage Enchantment) be completely unused in PvP if I want to make use of these new Poisons.

I understand power creep can be a very real problem, but that's no reason to introduce new features that invalidate old ones and the effort we put into leveling them up, and the Enchantments we choose are an integral part of our builds that should not be so readily discarded. I don't think that power creep would be any more of an issue if they made both Enchantments and Poisons be active simultaneously, neither are powerful enough to make a huge difference, and it's not every day they'll be adding a new feature of this sort that overrides something already in the game, so giving in to power creep on this isn't likely to be a slippery slope when this situation hasn't happened before and will likely not happen again.

They should not coexist in order to not make them mandatory for everyone.

[...]

It adds slightly more work for people getting ready to PvP, hardly any at all more than is already necessary, so I for one fail to see what harm would be done from doing as I suggest and making both Enchantments and Poisons active at once.

A lot more than is already necessary, if you use the materials you would otherwise use for potions on poisons, you have less potions. Such logic.
You say some wouldn't even bother using crafted poisons because they don't want to farm and don't have the gold to buy them. Well, that's a glaringly obvious imbalance, of course that is bad!

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Watch someone like Vortexman survive a 12 man raid with a healer in tow, watch him slowly wittle down all twelve.

I don't mind poisons since there are plenty of alternatives. Purge, purifying rit, dodge roll, careful management of resources for the pitiful 2.4 seconds you are actually affected, etc etc. I would be fine with a clear way to know when you have been poisoned (say, dripping green venom from a character model). Of course, the best way to deal with a group running poisons in an alliance verse alliance game is to...group up

What a good player can still achieve vs bad ones should never be used as an argument to give said bad players another crutch to rely on. No, numbers should not be any more important than they already are, but less.

DocFrost72

ToRelax wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Kalebron wrote: »

We fought a single dragonknight yesterday who would not die, so I equipped a poison that makes magicka and stamina cost up to 60% extra, and it was then and only then he started to get weakened. I think the poisons are appropriate and beneficial and maybe even need to drain magicka and stamina in addition to make it cost extra. At least I am not asked for a character nerf.

This is disgusting. If you can't kill him with your group, he should not die.

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

I still don't think Poisons should override Enchantments, I think they should both be active simultaneously and each proc individually of the other, but I've changed my mind on Poisons in general. After using them a bit and playing with them used against me a fair amount they've grown on me as a feature, they're short acting and don't proc very often.

They could probably be toned down a bit, I don't think you should have several stacked on at once as long as they're different poisons, if they're going to have them stack on players then the effect duration should reduce like it does when crafting a poison with multiple effects, or just have each override the other with only one person's poison active on any one person at a time. Apart from all that though, I like them, I didn't think much of them as an addition before but now I want them in the game, I just think they need a few tweaks.

Again though, it's the overriding enchantments that I don't like, it invalidates having them in the first place. I went through a great deal of time, effort, and even Gold buying Runes to level up my Enchanting, and while it's still useful for Enchanting things that aren't weapons it's very disappointing to have one of the most important Enchantments required for my Build to work well (Weapon Damage Enchantment) be completely unused in PvP if I want to make use of these new Poisons.

I understand power creep can be a very real problem, but that's no reason to introduce new features that invalidate old ones and the effort we put into leveling them up, and the Enchantments we choose are an integral part of our builds that should not be so readily discarded. I don't think that power creep would be any more of an issue if they made both Enchantments and Poisons be active simultaneously, neither are powerful enough to make a huge difference, and it's not every day they'll be adding a new feature of this sort that overrides something already in the game, so giving in to power creep on this isn't likely to be a slippery slope when this situation hasn't happened before and will likely not happen again.

They should not coexist in order to not make them mandatory for everyone.

[...]

It adds slightly more work for people getting ready to PvP, hardly any at all more than is already necessary, so I for one fail to see what harm would be done from doing as I suggest and making both Enchantments and Poisons active at once.

A lot more than is already necessary, if you use the materials you would otherwise use for potions on poisons, you have less potions. Such logic.
You say some wouldn't even bother using crafted poisons because they don't want to farm and don't have the gold to buy them. Well, that's a glaringly obvious imbalance, of course that is bad!

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Watch someone like Vortexman survive a 12 man raid with a healer in tow, watch him slowly wittle down all twelve.

I don't mind poisons since there are plenty of alternatives. Purge, purifying rit, dodge roll, careful management of resources for the pitiful 2.4 seconds you are actually affected, etc etc. I would be fine with a clear way to know when you have been poisoned (say, dripping green venom from a character model). Of course, the best way to deal with a group running poisons in an alliance verse alliance game is to...group up

What a good player can still achieve vs bad ones should never be used as an argument to give said bad players another crutch to rely on. No, numbers should not be any more important than they already are, but less.

When arenas drop, then we can argue about small scale pvp. For better or worse, ZoS envisions large scale PvP. Mayne, just maybe, they are encouraging their vision by punishing solo play? That would suck imo, but once arenas or battlegrounds drop I am 100% okay with that type of move.

DocFrost72

ToRelax wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Kalebron wrote: »

We fought a single dragonknight yesterday who would not die, so I equipped a poison that makes magicka and stamina cost up to 60% extra, and it was then and only then he started to get weakened. I think the poisons are appropriate and beneficial and maybe even need to drain magicka and stamina in addition to make it cost extra. At least I am not asked for a character nerf.

This is disgusting. If you can't kill him with your group, he should not die.

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

I still don't think Poisons should override Enchantments, I think they should both be active simultaneously and each proc individually of the other, but I've changed my mind on Poisons in general. After using them a bit and playing with them used against me a fair amount they've grown on me as a feature, they're short acting and don't proc very often.

They could probably be toned down a bit, I don't think you should have several stacked on at once as long as they're different poisons, if they're going to have them stack on players then the effect duration should reduce like it does when crafting a poison with multiple effects, or just have each override the other with only one person's poison active on any one person at a time. Apart from all that though, I like them, I didn't think much of them as an addition before but now I want them in the game, I just think they need a few tweaks.

Again though, it's the overriding enchantments that I don't like, it invalidates having them in the first place. I went through a great deal of time, effort, and even Gold buying Runes to level up my Enchanting, and while it's still useful for Enchanting things that aren't weapons it's very disappointing to have one of the most important Enchantments required for my Build to work well (Weapon Damage Enchantment) be completely unused in PvP if I want to make use of these new Poisons.

I understand power creep can be a very real problem, but that's no reason to introduce new features that invalidate old ones and the effort we put into leveling them up, and the Enchantments we choose are an integral part of our builds that should not be so readily discarded. I don't think that power creep would be any more of an issue if they made both Enchantments and Poisons be active simultaneously, neither are powerful enough to make a huge difference, and it's not every day they'll be adding a new feature of this sort that overrides something already in the game, so giving in to power creep on this isn't likely to be a slippery slope when this situation hasn't happened before and will likely not happen again.

They should not coexist in order to not make them mandatory for everyone.

[...]

It adds slightly more work for people getting ready to PvP, hardly any at all more than is already necessary, so I for one fail to see what harm would be done from doing as I suggest and making both Enchantments and Poisons active at once.

A lot more than is already necessary, if you use the materials you would otherwise use for potions on poisons, you have less potions. Such logic.
You say some wouldn't even bother using crafted poisons because they don't want to farm and don't have the gold to buy them. Well, that's a glaringly obvious imbalance, of course that is bad!

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Watch someone like Vortexman survive a 12 man raid with a healer in tow, watch him slowly wittle down all twelve.

I don't mind poisons since there are plenty of alternatives. Purge, purifying rit, dodge roll, careful management of resources for the pitiful 2.4 seconds you are actually affected, etc etc. I would be fine with a clear way to know when you have been poisoned (say, dripping green venom from a character model). Of course, the best way to deal with a group running poisons in an alliance verse alliance game is to...group up

What a good player can still achieve vs bad ones should never be used as an argument to give said bad players another crutch to rely on. No, numbers should not be any more important than they already are, but less.

When arenas drop, then we can argue about small scale pvp. For better or worse, ZoS envisions large scale PvP. Mayne, just maybe, they are encouraging their vision by punishing solo play? That would suck imo, but once arenas or battlegrounds drop I am 100% okay with that type of move.

Lucius_Aelius

ToRelax wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Kalebron wrote: »

We fought a single dragonknight yesterday who would not die, so I equipped a poison that makes magicka and stamina cost up to 60% extra, and it was then and only then he started to get weakened. I think the poisons are appropriate and beneficial and maybe even need to drain magicka and stamina in addition to make it cost extra. At least I am not asked for a character nerf.

This is disgusting. If you can't kill him with your group, he should not die.

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

I still don't think Poisons should override Enchantments, I think they should both be active simultaneously and each proc individually of the other, but I've changed my mind on Poisons in general. After using them a bit and playing with them used against me a fair amount they've grown on me as a feature, they're short acting and don't proc very often.

They could probably be toned down a bit, I don't think you should have several stacked on at once as long as they're different poisons, if they're going to have them stack on players then the effect duration should reduce like it does when crafting a poison with multiple effects, or just have each override the other with only one person's poison active on any one person at a time. Apart from all that though, I like them, I didn't think much of them as an addition before but now I want them in the game, I just think they need a few tweaks.

Again though, it's the overriding enchantments that I don't like, it invalidates having them in the first place. I went through a great deal of time, effort, and even Gold buying Runes to level up my Enchanting, and while it's still useful for Enchanting things that aren't weapons it's very disappointing to have one of the most important Enchantments required for my Build to work well (Weapon Damage Enchantment) be completely unused in PvP if I want to make use of these new Poisons.

I understand power creep can be a very real problem, but that's no reason to introduce new features that invalidate old ones and the effort we put into leveling them up, and the Enchantments we choose are an integral part of our builds that should not be so readily discarded. I don't think that power creep would be any more of an issue if they made both Enchantments and Poisons be active simultaneously, neither are powerful enough to make a huge difference, and it's not every day they'll be adding a new feature of this sort that overrides something already in the game, so giving in to power creep on this isn't likely to be a slippery slope when this situation hasn't happened before and will likely not happen again.

They should not coexist in order to not make them mandatory for everyone.

[...]

It adds slightly more work for people getting ready to PvP, hardly any at all more than is already necessary, so I for one fail to see what harm would be done from doing as I suggest and making both Enchantments and Poisons active at once.

A lot more than is already necessary, if you use the materials you would otherwise use for potions on poisons, you have less potions. Such logic.
You say some wouldn't even bother using crafted poisons because they don't want to farm and don't have the gold to buy them. Well, that's a glaringly obvious imbalance, of course that is bad!

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Watch someone like Vortexman survive a 12 man raid with a healer in tow, watch him slowly wittle down all twelve.

I don't mind poisons since there are plenty of alternatives. Purge, purifying rit, dodge roll, careful management of resources for the pitiful 2.4 seconds you are actually affected, etc etc. I would be fine with a clear way to know when you have been poisoned (say, dripping green venom from a character model). Of course, the best way to deal with a group running poisons in an alliance verse alliance game is to...group up

What a good player can still achieve vs bad ones should never be used as an argument to give said bad players another crutch to rely on. No, numbers should not be any more important than they already are, but less.

@ToRelax

When I farm I farm everything I can find for the duration of my run, I don't ever just farm one thing. Even if I already have hundreds of a Reagent, I'll always stop to pick up another, it leaves me well supplied for all my endeavors. During this process I acquire many Reagents and don't use all of them equally, so by making my potions with some and then using the others to make poisons I can keep a balanced supply of Reagents without running out of anything I need, and with minimal extra effort in addition to the effort I already exert keeping myself supplied with potions.

So if you're farming twice as much for poisons and potions as you were when you just farmed for potions, you're likely doing it wrong. Not everyone makes the same potions and poisons as me of course and they may use different ratios of Reagents accordingly, but it's not a necessity that they do so if they want good crafted potions and poisons.

And if you think it's such a problem for there to be people who won't want to bother and just buy NPC sold poisons, where do you stand on potions? Because those same players are buying cheap NPC sold potions right now, and if poisons being like that would be a problem then surely potions are problematic as well from your perspective.

I for one think it's good that there are more things people can do to be prepared for PvP, more ways we can customize our builds with the new poison effects, and anyone not willing to put in the effort just won't be quite as effective, just as with potions now.

leepalmer95

Why do people think the 60% resource increase last 1.2s? only if you make them like that.

You can make 60% increase magicka + stamina poisons last for 6s.

All it takes is one caltraps with this on and your sustain is gone.

RoamingRiverElk

If someone cannot be beaten without the use of poisons when outnumbered in Cyrodiil , then that person deserves to live. If you make everything about numbers, that further de-diversifies Cyrodiil. Newsflash: there was large scale pvp even when DKs were op.

And yep, ideally tristat potions would be much cheaper than they are now.

ToRelax

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Kalebron wrote: »

We fought a single dragonknight yesterday who would not die, so I equipped a poison that makes magicka and stamina cost up to 60% extra, and it was then and only then he started to get weakened. I think the poisons are appropriate and beneficial and maybe even need to drain magicka and stamina in addition to make it cost extra. At least I am not asked for a character nerf.

This is disgusting. If you can't kill him with your group, he should not die.

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

I still don't think Poisons should override Enchantments, I think they should both be active simultaneously and each proc individually of the other, but I've changed my mind on Poisons in general. After using them a bit and playing with them used against me a fair amount they've grown on me as a feature, they're short acting and don't proc very often.

They could probably be toned down a bit, I don't think you should have several stacked on at once as long as they're different poisons, if they're going to have them stack on players then the effect duration should reduce like it does when crafting a poison with multiple effects, or just have each override the other with only one person's poison active on any one person at a time. Apart from all that though, I like them, I didn't think much of them as an addition before but now I want them in the game, I just think they need a few tweaks.

Again though, it's the overriding enchantments that I don't like, it invalidates having them in the first place. I went through a great deal of time, effort, and even Gold buying Runes to level up my Enchanting, and while it's still useful for Enchanting things that aren't weapons it's very disappointing to have one of the most important Enchantments required for my Build to work well (Weapon Damage Enchantment) be completely unused in PvP if I want to make use of these new Poisons.

I understand power creep can be a very real problem, but that's no reason to introduce new features that invalidate old ones and the effort we put into leveling them up, and the Enchantments we choose are an integral part of our builds that should not be so readily discarded. I don't think that power creep would be any more of an issue if they made both Enchantments and Poisons be active simultaneously, neither are powerful enough to make a huge difference, and it's not every day they'll be adding a new feature of this sort that overrides something already in the game, so giving in to power creep on this isn't likely to be a slippery slope when this situation hasn't happened before and will likely not happen again.

They should not coexist in order to not make them mandatory for everyone.

[...]

It adds slightly more work for people getting ready to PvP, hardly any at all more than is already necessary, so I for one fail to see what harm would be done from doing as I suggest and making both Enchantments and Poisons active at once.

A lot more than is already necessary, if you use the materials you would otherwise use for potions on poisons, you have less potions. Such logic.
You say some wouldn't even bother using crafted poisons because they don't want to farm and don't have the gold to buy them. Well, that's a glaringly obvious imbalance, of course that is bad!

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Watch someone like Vortexman survive a 12 man raid with a healer in tow, watch him slowly wittle down all twelve.

I don't mind poisons since there are plenty of alternatives. Purge, purifying rit, dodge roll, careful management of resources for the pitiful 2.4 seconds you are actually affected, etc etc. I would be fine with a clear way to know when you have been poisoned (say, dripping green venom from a character model). Of course, the best way to deal with a group running poisons in an alliance verse alliance game is to...group up

What a good player can still achieve vs bad ones should never be used as an argument to give said bad players another crutch to rely on. No, numbers should not be any more important than they already are, but less.

ToRelax

When I farm I farm everything I can find for the duration of my run, I don't ever just farm one thing. Even if I already have hundreds of a Reagent, I'll always stop to pick up another, it leaves me well supplied for all my endeavors. During this process I acquire many Reagents and don't use all of them equally, so by making my potions with some and then using the others to make poisons I can keep a balanced supply of Reagents without running out of anything I need, and with minimal extra effort in addition to the effort I already exert keeping myself supplied with potions.

So if you're farming twice as much for poisons and potions as you were when you just farmed for potions, you're likely doing it wrong. Not everyone makes the same potions and poisons as me of course and they may use different ratios of Reagents accordingly, but it's not a necessity that they do so if they want good crafted potions and poisons.

And if you think it's such a problem for there to be people who won't want to bother and just buy NPC sold poisons, where do you stand on potions? Because those same players are buying cheap NPC sold potions right now, and if poisons being like that would be a problem then surely potions are problematic as well from your perspective.

I for one think it's good that there are more things people can do to be prepared for PvP, more ways we can customize our builds with the new poison effects, and anyone not willing to put in the effort just won't be quite as effective, just as with potions now.

Yeah, unlimited potions for everyone would be my dream. That does not hinder anyone from customizing their build, unlike how it is currently.

Lucius_Aelius

ToRelax wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Kalebron wrote: »

We fought a single dragonknight yesterday who would not die, so I equipped a poison that makes magicka and stamina cost up to 60% extra, and it was then and only then he started to get weakened. I think the poisons are appropriate and beneficial and maybe even need to drain magicka and stamina in addition to make it cost extra. At least I am not asked for a character nerf.

This is disgusting. If you can't kill him with your group, he should not die.

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

I still don't think Poisons should override Enchantments, I think they should both be active simultaneously and each proc individually of the other, but I've changed my mind on Poisons in general. After using them a bit and playing with them used against me a fair amount they've grown on me as a feature, they're short acting and don't proc very often.

They could probably be toned down a bit, I don't think you should have several stacked on at once as long as they're different poisons, if they're going to have them stack on players then the effect duration should reduce like it does when crafting a poison with multiple effects, or just have each override the other with only one person's poison active on any one person at a time. Apart from all that though, I like them, I didn't think much of them as an addition before but now I want them in the game, I just think they need a few tweaks.

Again though, it's the overriding enchantments that I don't like, it invalidates having them in the first place. I went through a great deal of time, effort, and even Gold buying Runes to level up my Enchanting, and while it's still useful for Enchanting things that aren't weapons it's very disappointing to have one of the most important Enchantments required for my Build to work well (Weapon Damage Enchantment) be completely unused in PvP if I want to make use of these new Poisons.

I understand power creep can be a very real problem, but that's no reason to introduce new features that invalidate old ones and the effort we put into leveling them up, and the Enchantments we choose are an integral part of our builds that should not be so readily discarded. I don't think that power creep would be any more of an issue if they made both Enchantments and Poisons be active simultaneously, neither are powerful enough to make a huge difference, and it's not every day they'll be adding a new feature of this sort that overrides something already in the game, so giving in to power creep on this isn't likely to be a slippery slope when this situation hasn't happened before and will likely not happen again.

They should not coexist in order to not make them mandatory for everyone.

[...]

It adds slightly more work for people getting ready to PvP, hardly any at all more than is already necessary, so I for one fail to see what harm would be done from doing as I suggest and making both Enchantments and Poisons active at once.

A lot more than is already necessary, if you use the materials you would otherwise use for potions on poisons, you have less potions. Such logic.
You say some wouldn't even bother using crafted poisons because they don't want to farm and don't have the gold to buy them. Well, that's a glaringly obvious imbalance, of course that is bad!

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Watch someone like Vortexman survive a 12 man raid with a healer in tow, watch him slowly wittle down all twelve.

I don't mind poisons since there are plenty of alternatives. Purge, purifying rit, dodge roll, careful management of resources for the pitiful 2.4 seconds you are actually affected, etc etc. I would be fine with a clear way to know when you have been poisoned (say, dripping green venom from a character model). Of course, the best way to deal with a group running poisons in an alliance verse alliance game is to...group up

What a good player can still achieve vs bad ones should never be used as an argument to give said bad players another crutch to rely on. No, numbers should not be any more important than they already are, but less.

ToRelax

When I farm I farm everything I can find for the duration of my run, I don't ever just farm one thing. Even if I already have hundreds of a Reagent, I'll always stop to pick up another, it leaves me well supplied for all my endeavors. During this process I acquire many Reagents and don't use all of them equally, so by making my potions with some and then using the others to make poisons I can keep a balanced supply of Reagents without running out of anything I need, and with minimal extra effort in addition to the effort I already exert keeping myself supplied with potions.

So if you're farming twice as much for poisons and potions as you were when you just farmed for potions, you're likely doing it wrong. Not everyone makes the same potions and poisons as me of course and they may use different ratios of Reagents accordingly, but it's not a necessity that they do so if they want good crafted potions and poisons.

And if you think it's such a problem for there to be people who won't want to bother and just buy NPC sold poisons, where do you stand on potions? Because those same players are buying cheap NPC sold potions right now, and if poisons being like that would be a problem then surely potions are problematic as well from your perspective.

I for one think it's good that there are more things people can do to be prepared for PvP, more ways we can customize our builds with the new poison effects, and anyone not willing to put in the effort just won't be quite as effective, just as with potions now.

Yeah, unlimited potions for everyone would be my dream. That does not hinder anyone from customizing their build, unlike how it is currently.

@ToRelax

I wouldn't complain if they buffed the spawn/drop rate of Alchemy Reagents and Solvents, but I do like the idea of having things you need to upkeep in order to be properly competitive, with the idea of keeping yourself supplied with things needed for Battle. Some people are lazy and aren't prepared to go the extra mile to be more prepared (though if you know where to farm it's honestly not so bad), and anyone like that deserves to be less powerful. We're supposed to have to work to acquire power, and it just so happens that Alchemy products are finite and need to be replenished in order for us to maintain our highest potential.

So like I said I wouldn't complain if they make Alchemy easier to farm (as long as it's not too easy), but it shouldn't be unlimited or free. That removes dimensionality from the game, simplifies it in a way that leaves it feeling more hollow, with less substance to it. The little things give a game its character as much as the big things, and having to farm Alchemy Reagents, however small, is a part of what makes this game feel more like a real, living world, which is essential for us to properly enjoy playing in it.

People in the real world gather ingredients to make medicine and make food (less so these days in the modern world, but even if it's just Grocery shopping we're still gathering food, and many people use herbal medicines), so having to do things like that in the game makes it feel more realistic. There's a limit to how realistic a game can be before it stops being fun (depending on the game/genre), but not enough realism can be just as much of a problem, so the best way is having some middle ground where it's kind of realistic in enough ways to create the illusion and maintain it without being overly tedious the way life often is.

Maybe they need to adjust their balance on Alchemy to make it less tedious, but that's as far as they should go, it's a good system and should stay working largely as it does. I still just think that poisons and Enchantments working together would be the best way to have it, and if people don't want to put in the extra effort then that's on them, not the game's fault if people don't want to put in a reasonable amount of legwork and actually be prepared. And if they don't there's the NPC potions and poisons, which obviously aren't as good but are definitely better than nothing, and they're cheap.

Lava_Croft

If being competitive depends on your time spent harvesting flowers and who has the most numbers, it's no longer a game of skill.

Asmael

DocFrost72 wrote: »

[...]

I don't mind poisons since there are plenty of alternatives. Purge, purifying rit, dodge roll, careful management of resources for the pitiful 2.4 seconds you are actually affected, etc etc. I would be fine with a clear way to know when you have been poisoned (say, dripping green venom from a character model). Of course, the best way to deal with a group running poisons in an alliance verse alliance game is to...group up

Efficient Purge: 5400 magicka (base cost). 8640 while affected by a poison. 12960 base magicka cost if using the other morph (lol). Guarantee to purge the poison effect while outnumbered: usually around 10% (because you have a zillion other debuffs on you).

Dodge roll on mag build, I lol'd.

As said above, duration is 10 seconds if only 1 resource, 6.4 for both 60% stam and mag increase. Guaranteed 100% uptime when outnumbered.

There's already a way to tell whether you're affected by a poison (your opponent's weapon has a huge poison-ish effect, can't miss it).

It's not because it's an AvA game that you should be forced to bring similar numbers to a fight. What's even the point of a game if you know the group with the more peeps automatically win? Larger groups already got extra mitigation and CC immunity, poisons were definitely not needed.

PurifedBladez

Ravinsild wrote: »

On the other hand the more diluted they are the shorter they last and they only last for like 2.5 seconds anyway...most of the ones I've made last 1.2 seconds.

That's why you use 10 second resource increase on stamina. That poison is ridiculous.