vMSA on console - we need more utility

DangerMan

To begin with, I know half of the people will comment with L2P or some variation of it, rather than giving constructive feedback. So, let me begin by saying this is not a nerf Maelstrom thread. Maelstrom is probably the only hard content left in game, besides vMoL. So no, it should not be nerfed willy nilly.

But console players need more utility "add-ons" to make it more balanced. And this is something that PC players already have.

I don't play 24/7, and the game shouldn't be about grinding so much that everything becomes muscle memory. This is not even a L2P issue - I've completed vet Maelstrom and have multiple end-game characters. I've also completed all end-game content besides vMoL.

Plus vMSA isn't overly difficult if played with the right build, but console players need way more timers and notifications and other utility items. ZOS did a great job of adding health numbers/percentages and ultimate numbers, but there's still a lot missing.

Just as as example:
- On my Stam DK, I need timers to show me when my DoTs are about to expire. There's been so many times that I've wasted the hardest hitting tick on my Venomous Claw, just because I don't have a timer on it.
- On my MagSorc, I need a notifier to show me that a proc'ed frag is ready. I can't keep looking at my health bar to glow or for my hands in there to glow purple, especially when they are already always glowing thanks to power surge. I need timers to show me when my buffs are about to expire.

And these are just a few of the things. Most of these items, plus more, are easily accessible to PC players thanks to add-ons. I'm at the point where only the Maelstrom weapons would improve my DPS significantly (25k DPS based on DPS test), but I just don't have the time to grind away my life and make all my moves into muscle memory just for a specific part of the game.

On a side-note: Who the hell had the genius idea of making the blo*dy Daedroths in the final round spawn on a timer rather than health intervals?! They spawn at the most inconvenient time possible. We also need timers to show when a Daedra is about to spawn in the final round, lol.

KaleidoscopeEyz

It's a double edged sword. Sure PC has add-ons but they also have the hackers that console doesn't have.

Fignutz821

it doesn't have to be an add-on if ZOS puts it in the game in house like they did with the #s and percentages and damage

DangerMan

Fignutz821 wrote: »

it doesn't have to be an add-on if ZOS puts it in the game in house like they did with the #s and percentages and damage

That's what I meant. On consoles we can't get third party add-ons, so ZOS will have to add these into the game. Otherwise vMSA will always remain a grind-fest

DangerMan

KaleidoscopeEyz wrote: »

It's a double edged sword. Sure PC has add-ons but they also have the hackers that console doesn't have.

Haha and consoles are full of glitches and lag

Jaronking

Man I would love buff trackers in the game.It will help considerably to help players on consoles to become better and stronger players.Which will also allow them to complete more difficult content in the game.

As someone who haven't finished the last round of Vet MA stuck on the last boss almost got him but then got kicked.This is help a lot of players in the long run.

DRXHarbinger

No we don't need them. You can see esp on a DK when your dots wear off. Run a decent cycle and you won't have have an issue. Too much spamming is the problem that makes you forget. PC play looks horrific with all those numbers (impossible for a human to actually track) going on. Like the potion ready...do you really need text to tell you the option is ready? Unless your blind it's a bit OTT.

DangerMan

Jaronking wrote: »

Man I would love buff trackers in the game.It will help considerably to help players on consoles to become better and stronger players.Which will also allow them to complete more difficult content in the game.

As someone who haven't finished the last round of Vet MA stuck on the last boss almost got him but then got kicked.This is help a lot of players in the long run.

Same. I pulled through vMSA final boss once after 3 hours of struggle. On my second run it only took me 45 mins to get to that final round. But I've been stuck on that final round boss for 2 weeks now, just because we don't have any timers of any sort. Or notification of proc'ed skills like frags..

DangerMan

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

No we don't need them. You can see esp on a DK when your dots wear off. Run a decent cycle and you won't have have an issue. Too much spamming is the problem that makes you forget. PC play looks horrific with all those numbers (impossible for a human to actually track) going on. Like the potion ready...do you really need text to tell you the option is ready? Unless your blind it's a bit OTT.

No, to maximize your DPS you do need those timers. One ill-timed rotation can massively gimp your DPS, and that is significant when you're running end-game stuff like vMSA, vMoL, or the new SO hard mode. You can't just eye-ball your skills, especially when you have 4 or 5 DoTs active at any given time.

Plus, if you truly just a casual player who doesn't care about a difference of 4-5k DPS, and only cares about 'immersion', then you can easily turn these numbers off. No one is asking you to use the numbers if you don't want to. But having the option of turning these on is what I'm asking for.

DangerMan

For anyone who thinks that these would be too overwhelming, the timers/notifiers can easily be made toggle-able, just like the health percentages/numbers that they incorporated in the last patch.

DRXHarbinger

DangerMan wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

No we don't need them. You can see esp on a DK when your dots wear off. Run a decent cycle and you won't have have an issue. Too much spamming is the problem that makes you forget. PC play looks horrific with all those numbers (impossible for a human to actually track) going on. Like the potion ready...do you really need text to tell you the option is ready? Unless your blind it's a bit OTT.

No, to maximize your DPS you do need those timers. One ill-timed rotation can massively gimp your DPS, and that is significant when you're running end-game stuff like vMSA, vMoL, or the new SO hard mode. You can't just eye-ball your skills, especially when you have 4 or 5 DoTs active at any given time.

Plus, if you truly just a casual player who doesn't care about a difference of 4-5k DPS, and only cares about 'immersion', then you can easily turn these numbers off. No one is asking you to use the numbers if you don't want to. But having the option of turning these on is what I'm asking for.

Lol you really think they'll give you 5k dps more...please stop making excuses for your poor performance....that's the reason why I have 5 toons on leaderboards 3 stam too...every week...

Personally.....I'd rather zos spent the time making things just plain work better...but if not having silly icons and text in your face is the reason you can't run vma then think again. Also the comment about your frags needing text to say it's ready..please it's so visible... been running trials all day and people try any excuse for going down and poor performance all the time...this is a new one..

I can't play with this properly because I don't have something that no body else does...good one. Try again.

Amdar_Godkiller

Just set up a makeshift metronome. Heck I think XBO has one as a snappable app. Keep a rough count of how 
many beats your DOT/rotation  lasts and use this during VMA. Keep your eyes on the fight, and let your mind and 
ears figure out the duration.

DangerMan

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

DangerMan wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

No we don't need them. You can see esp on a DK when your dots wear off. Run a decent cycle and you won't have have an issue. Too much spamming is the problem that makes you forget. PC play looks horrific with all those numbers (impossible for a human to actually track) going on. Like the potion ready...do you really need text to tell you the option is ready? Unless your blind it's a bit OTT.

No, to maximize your DPS you do need those timers. One ill-timed rotation can massively gimp your DPS, and that is significant when you're running end-game stuff like vMSA, vMoL, or the new SO hard mode. You can't just eye-ball your skills, especially when you have 4 or 5 DoTs active at any given time.

Plus, if you truly just a casual player who doesn't care about a difference of 4-5k DPS, and only cares about 'immersion', then you can easily turn these numbers off. No one is asking you to use the numbers if you don't want to. But having the option of turning these on is what I'm asking for.

Lol you really think they'll give you 5k dps more...please stop making excuses for your poor performance....that's the reason why I have 5 toons on leaderboards 3 stam too...every week...

Personally.....I'd rather zos spent the time making things just plain work better...but if not having silly icons and text in your face is the reason you can't run vma then think again. Also the comment about your frags needing text to say it's ready..please it's so visible... been running trials all day and people try any excuse for going down and poor performance all the time...this is a new one..

I can't play with this properly because I don't have something that no body else does...good one. Try again.

"Lol you really think they'll give you 5k dps more...please stop making excuses for your poor performance" - Not just me, it would easily improve DPS of regular players too if they had proper queues and timers to look at.

"that's the reason why I have 5 toons on leaderboards 3 stam too...every week..." - Yes, and I know people who have even more than that. But just because you have unlimited time on your hands should not mean that others are forced to learn everything by muscle memory and memorize the timers of every single freaking skill..

"I can't play with this properly because I don't have something that no body else does...good one." - Maybe you haven't been reading what I wrote or maybe you don't have the brain capacity to understand. PC players already have this, and more.

I don't understand what you're issue with this is. Are you scared that people would beat you on leaderboards if they're given these things? If so, then maybe you aren't that great to begin with, you're just someone with more time on you hands.. And if you truly are as great as you say you are, then adding these should have no effect on you whatsoever..

DRXHarbinger

People do beat me on leaderboards. Good on them, happy for them but I'm simply saying if you think it'll make a difference to "causal" players you're so wrong.... how many random dungeons have you done when all they do is spam ambush over and over and heavy attack everything to death (slowly) this will not help anyone, those that are good at it console have adapted perfectly without it and don't honestly need it, casuals or bad players need something ccompletely different, such as an a giant hand that appears and says stop doing this and do this instead.

Back to leaderboards. ..bear in mind people are already scoring stupidly high near 600k scores without these add ons..same as PC. PC just has higher average score imo as there is just a lot more of them and the game has been out for a year longer.

Molag_Crow

Totally agree! completed vMSA many times now on my Templar and I still mess up a lot because of having no buff trackers/timers, so as a certain point in the encounter, I'll forget to refresh my Purifying Ritual, Channeling Focus etc in time and suddenly notice the repercussions >.<

DangerMan

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

People do beat me on leaderboards. Good on them, happy for them but I'm simply saying if you think it'll make a difference to "causal" players you're so wrong.... how many random dungeons have you done when all they do is spam ambush over and over and heavy attack everything to death (slowly) this will not help anyone, those that are good at it console have adapted perfectly without it and don't honestly need it, casuals or bad players need something ccompletely different, such as an a giant hand that appears and says stop doing this and do this instead.

Back to leaderboards. ..bear in mind people are already scoring stupidly high near 600k scores without these add ons..same as PC. PC just has higher average score imo as there is just a lot more of them and the game has been out for a year longer.

I somewhat agree with you. I just think our definition of "casual" is different. I have come across people who only spam ambush or one skill, just like you said, but I prefer to call them noobs rather than casuals.

The way I divide the players on console is that you have the top-tier people, who have adapted perfectly and are pulling over 35k DPS. Then there's the "casuals", like me, who are way above average but still nowhere close to the top, pulling around 25k DPS. And then you have the noobs who pull less than 10k DPS.

The problem currently on console is that these three tiers are very hard defined - there's very few people who are in between. But on PC the player base is quite well divided (you have people pulling 10k DPS, 15k DPS, 18k DPS, 22k DPS etc etc).

On console it's very hard to make the jump from one tier to the next, especially to pull anything above 30k DPS. There are definitely people who have adapted to the lack of these add-ons on console, but that requires some major time investment on our part. And without it, you can't properly run the true end-game content which is vMoL or vMSA.

I just feel that if an equivalent of these PC add-ons is introduced to console, we'll start seeing higher average scores on leaderboards, like on PC. Plus it'll help the casuals, the 25k DPS players, in regular gameplay too, and it'll be easier to make a jump to possibly higher numbers.

Ep1kMalware

DangerMan wrote: »

To begin with, I know half of the people will comment with L2P or some variation of it, rather than giving constructive feedback. So, let me begin by saying this is not a nerf Maelstrom thread. Maelstrom is probably the only hard content left in game, besides vMoL. So no, it should not be nerfed willy nilly.

But console players need more utility "add-ons" to make it more balanced. And this is something that PC players already have.

I don't play 24/7, and the game shouldn't be about grinding so much that everything becomes muscle memory. This is not even a L2P issue - I've completed vet Maelstrom and have multiple end-game characters. I've also completed all end-game content besides vMoL.

Plus vMSA isn't overly difficult if played with the right build, but console players need way more timers and notifications and other utility items. ZOS did a great job of adding health numbers/percentages and ultimate numbers, but there's still a lot missing.

Just as as example:
- On my Stam DK, I need timers to show me when my DoTs are about to expire. There's been so many times that I've wasted the hardest hitting tick on my Venomous Claw, just because I don't have a timer on it.
- On my MagSorc, I need a notifier to show me that a proc'ed frag is ready. I can't keep looking at my health bar to glow or for my hands in there to glow purple, especially when they are already always glowing thanks to power surge. I need timers to show me when my buffs are about to expire.

And these are just a few of the things. Most of these items, plus more, are easily accessible to PC players thanks to add-ons. I'm at the point where only the Maelstrom weapons would improve my DPS significantly (25k DPS based on DPS test), but I just don't have the time to grind away my life and make all my moves into muscle memory just for a specific part of the game.

On a side-note: Who the hell had the genius idea of making the blo*dy Daedroths in the final round spawn on a timer rather than health intervals?! They spawn at the most inconvenient time possible. We also need timers to show when a Daedra is about to spawn in the final round, lol.

Timers are good, cuz you can beat timers Also, memorizing your skill rotation is all you need. What makes you think watching your buff timers in addition to 6k other things will help?

DangerMan

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

DangerMan wrote: »

To begin with, I know half of the people will comment with L2P or some variation of it, rather than giving constructive feedback. So, let me begin by saying this is not a nerf Maelstrom thread. Maelstrom is probably the only hard content left in game, besides vMoL. So no, it should not be nerfed willy nilly.

But console players need more utility "add-ons" to make it more balanced. And this is something that PC players already have.

I don't play 24/7, and the game shouldn't be about grinding so much that everything becomes muscle memory. This is not even a L2P issue - I've completed vet Maelstrom and have multiple end-game characters. I've also completed all end-game content besides vMoL.

Plus vMSA isn't overly difficult if played with the right build, but console players need way more timers and notifications and other utility items. ZOS did a great job of adding health numbers/percentages and ultimate numbers, but there's still a lot missing.

Just as as example:
- On my Stam DK, I need timers to show me when my DoTs are about to expire. There's been so many times that I've wasted the hardest hitting tick on my Venomous Claw, just because I don't have a timer on it.
- On my MagSorc, I need a notifier to show me that a proc'ed frag is ready. I can't keep looking at my health bar to glow or for my hands in there to glow purple, especially when they are already always glowing thanks to power surge. I need timers to show me when my buffs are about to expire.

And these are just a few of the things. Most of these items, plus more, are easily accessible to PC players thanks to add-ons. I'm at the point where only the Maelstrom weapons would improve my DPS significantly (25k DPS based on DPS test), but I just don't have the time to grind away my life and make all my moves into muscle memory just for a specific part of the game.

On a side-note: Who the hell had the genius idea of making the blo*dy Daedroths in the final round spawn on a timer rather than health intervals?! They spawn at the most inconvenient time possible. We also need timers to show when a Daedra is about to spawn in the final round, lol.

Timers are good, cuz you can beat timers Also, memorizing your skill rotation is all you need. What makes you think watching your buff timers in addition to 6k other things will help?

I already have a very specific, practiced and memorized skill rotation on my Stam DK, especially for DoTs. It's just hard to keep track of 'when' exactly to repeat that rotation and reapply my DoTs, especially when there's a billion other things happening around me. But I don't run vMSA on my Stam DK.

I run vMSA on my MagSorc. And the problems I face are hard casted frags, Surge buff running out, and keeping track of when my DoTs expire, especially when I'm running around (I like to leave my DoTs on targets that don't move, and then run around taking care of everything else)..

Timers and small notifications for skills like frags would genuinely help quite a bit.

KingYogi415

Why console does not have text chat of buff timers yet is mind blowing.

Sallington

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Just set up a makeshift metronome. Heck I think XBO has one as a snappable app. Keep a rough count of how 
many beats your DOT/rotation  lasts and use this during VMA. Keep your eyes on the fight, and let your mind and 
ears figure out the duration.

That's the most archaic suggestions I've ever seen.

Kammakazi

Lel the elitists in here.

Just add buff trackers already.

In this patch I've started using Rearming Trap on my Sorc and guess what it does? It adds a white glow to my arms in addition to the lightning effect from my Surge.

The biggest consequence about this is that 80% of the time the lightning visual effect DOES NOT show up when my Rearming Trap (Minor Force) is activated which makes me believe that my Surge is not activated, when in fact it already is (Character Sheet). This makes me have to bar swap, activate Surge (It's already running but the visual isn't there) and bar swap again.

Basically I'm wasting time and resources trying to reactivate an ability because its visual isn't working properly.

This also affects my DK when using Igneous Weapons. The molten effect doesn't even show and I don't know when the best time to recast it is.

UltimaJoe777

DangerMan wrote: »

Fignutz821 wrote: »

it doesn't have to be an add-on if ZOS puts it in the game in house like they did with the #s and percentages and damage

That's what I meant. On consoles we can't get third party add-ons, so ZOS will have to add these into the game. Otherwise vMSA will always remain a grind-fest

And exactly how do add-ons make it any less of a grind-fest?

DangerMan

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

DangerMan wrote: »

Fignutz821 wrote: »

it doesn't have to be an add-on if ZOS puts it in the game in house like they did with the #s and percentages and damage

That's what I meant. On consoles we can't get third party add-ons, so ZOS will have to add these into the game. Otherwise vMSA will always remain a grind-fest

And exactly how do add-ons make it any less of a grind-fest?

- It'll take fewer runs to clear because you won't be dying randomly from not having your buffs active..
- You'll know when your high damaging skills and proc'ed skills (like frags), are ready (rather than being stuck in a 3s hard cast frag in an already laggy and glitchy environment)..
- It'll somewhat take out the randomness from the game..
- You'd be able to pre-plan your next few moves based on the timers that are about to run out rather than relying on muscle memory and eye-balling 'buff/skill animations'..

List goes on and on. There's no harm in adding timers and notifications in the game.. People who don't want it or think it doesn't help can just turn em off..

It's just like the health bars and health percentages. Was it necessary to add those in? No. Did it make people more effective in-game? Yes. Now people know exactly when to execute rather than just eyeballing health bars..

Defilted

Was there not talk that if the fallout 4 console experiment on mods/addons went well that we would see some mods on ESO, on console?

This could have just been a dream...

Ep1kMalware

DangerMan wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

DangerMan wrote: »

Fignutz821 wrote: »

it doesn't have to be an add-on if ZOS puts it in the game in house like they did with the #s and percentages and damage

That's what I meant. On consoles we can't get third party add-ons, so ZOS will have to add these into the game. Otherwise vMSA will always remain a grind-fest

And exactly how do add-ons make it any less of a grind-fest?

- It'll take fewer runs to clear because you won't be dying randomly from not having your buffs active..
- You'll know when your high damaging skills and proc'ed skills (like frags), are ready (rather than being stuck in a 3s hard cast frag in an already laggy and glitchy environment)..
- It'll somewhat take out the randomness from the game..
- You'd be able to pre-plan your next few moves based on the timers that are about to run out rather than relying on muscle memory and eye-balling 'buff/skill animations'..

List goes on and on. There's no harm in adding timers and notifications in the game.. People who don't want it or think it doesn't help can just turn em off..

It's just like the health bars and health percentages. Was it necessary to add those in? No. Did it make people more effective in-game? Yes. Now people know exactly when to execute rather than just eyeballing health bars..

You'll be dying more becaudse you'll be paying attentiom to your dumb addons. FFS, use a stopwatch or something, and figute out how many spammables you can do during one of your buffs. Really? How is this too hard? Having your hand held by distracting popups absolutely will do you no good.

Kammakazi wrote: »

Lel the elitists in here.

Just add buff trackers already.

In this patch I've started using Rearming Trap on my Sorc and guess what it does? It adds a white glow to my arms in addition to the lightning effect from my Surge.

The biggest consequence about this is that 80% of the time the lightning visual effect DOES NOT show up when my Rearming Trap (Minor Force) is activated which makes me believe that my Surge is not activated, when in fact it already is (Character Sheet). This makes me have to bar swap, activate Surge (It's already running but the visual isn't there) and bar swap again.

Basically I'm wasting time and resources trying to reactivate an ability because its visual isn't working properly.

This also affects my DK when using Igneous Weapons. The molten effect doesn't even show and I don't know when the best time to recast it is.

Is the pillar of light comming out of the floor not doing it? you get a 12 second buff, what other buffs/skills can you do in 12 seconds? It's a rotation people. The reasom you dont need buff timers is because you do the exact same moveset over and over. you do a certain amount of skills weaves, and buff, it'll be the same thing every time. If you have to wait for thw game to tell you to reapply your buffs then you applying them to slow and screwing up your rotation in the first place. I like how you slander helpful advice as elitest and rant about not having access to what will probably be lag inducing f=antifeatures that will make you distracted, dependent, and mediocre at best.

count dude, just count your attacks and buff.

Ep1kMalware

(edit not working)

if you can don6 spammables and 3 light atks in ~10 seconds reapply your trap anyway so you minimize the downtime on the buff. it takes 1 sec to apply it anyway, then probably another second for something to walk into it.

source: beast trap has been in ,y rotation for months.

Runefang

I think it's a fantastic idea. Sure you can adapt to play without them as you've said but the issue is most people don't want to put that kind of time in. The end game needs to be more accessible to more players, not by reducing the difficulty but by increasing the skill of the players.

HuawaSepp

If you really wanna do best dps on console you have to buy cronusmax play with mouse and keyboard and put your whole rota in a macro.
I used it once for playing with m&k on console and I was very surprised.
It is the same feeling on pc.
But for eso i prefer the >30 fps on pc.

Ep1kMalware

Runefang wrote: »

I think it's a fantastic idea. Sure you can adapt to play without them as you've said but the issue is most people don't want to put that kind of time in. The end game needs to be more accessible to more players, not by reducing the difficulty but by increasing the skill of the players.

It wouldn't bring anyone closer to endgame, because of the aformentioned time and effort put in. It may be helpful to the casual crowd but it'll get you nowhere but probably game crashes.

UltimaJoe777

DangerMan wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

DangerMan wrote: »

Fignutz821 wrote: »

it doesn't have to be an add-on if ZOS puts it in the game in house like they did with the #s and percentages and damage

That's what I meant. On consoles we can't get third party add-ons, so ZOS will have to add these into the game. Otherwise vMSA will always remain a grind-fest

And exactly how do add-ons make it any less of a grind-fest?

- It'll take fewer runs to clear because you won't be dying randomly from not having your buffs active..
- You'll know when your high damaging skills and proc'ed skills (like frags), are ready (rather than being stuck in a 3s hard cast frag in an already laggy and glitchy environment)..
- It'll somewhat take out the randomness from the game..
- You'd be able to pre-plan your next few moves based on the timers that are about to run out rather than relying on muscle memory and eye-balling 'buff/skill animations'..

List goes on and on. There's no harm in adding timers and notifications in the game.. People who don't want it or think it doesn't help can just turn em off..

It's just like the health bars and health percentages. Was it necessary to add those in? No. Did it make people more effective in-game? Yes. Now people know exactly when to execute rather than just eyeballing health bars..

Yes at this point there is nothing holding Zenimax back from adding buff indicators and stuff. However, all that you listed (except the 3rd 1 which is honestly ridiculous because buffs, debuffs, and DoT time is not random and things like Crystal Frag proc will always be somewhat random due to RNGeebus)... I'm sorry but it's gonna be said sooner or later by someone so may as well say it now but the first reply that comes to mind would be l2p.

Dradhok

Not only do they need to add timer options, but we need a DPS and healing tracking option. It is very difficult to maximize a build, rotation or gear set without a solid tracking system.