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The Desecrater - A Guide to NB Tanking (Homestead Ready)

  • Drevick
    Drevick
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    Autolycus wrote: »
    Drevick wrote: »
    Why concealed weapon? Wouldn't refreshing path be better for the proc?

    Someone asked this a bit further up. Refreshing Path would likely be the preferred option given a different setup. There are two key factors at play here:
    1. Twisting Path is used in the DPS setup that compliments this build. A magblade DPS setup that uses Scathing Mage must use Twisting Path. I'm not concerned about the minuscule damage that Twisting does in a full-tank setup. Refreshing would be great, but I can't use both.
    2. Neither morph of Path of Shadows can broc Bahraha's Curse. If you take that set out of the build, then it doesn't really matter.

    I would also note that Concealed Weapon is cheaper than Path, thus making it the noticeably more efficient means to proc both Major Ward/Resolve and Bahraha's Curse.

    I missed the explanation above. Thanks for the knowledge. I crafted all my gear and am having a blast learning to tank.
    Drevick Val'Varren
    Dark Elf Magicka Nightblade
    CP 300ish
  • Autolycus
    Autolycus
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    Drevick wrote: »
    Autolycus wrote: »
    Drevick wrote: »
    Why concealed weapon? Wouldn't refreshing path be better for the proc?

    Someone asked this a bit further up. Refreshing Path would likely be the preferred option given a different setup. There are two key factors at play here:
    1. Twisting Path is used in the DPS setup that compliments this build. A magblade DPS setup that uses Scathing Mage must use Twisting Path. I'm not concerned about the minuscule damage that Twisting does in a full-tank setup. Refreshing would be great, but I can't use both.
    2. Neither morph of Path of Shadows can broc Bahraha's Curse. If you take that set out of the build, then it doesn't really matter.

    I would also note that Concealed Weapon is cheaper than Path, thus making it the noticeably more efficient means to proc both Major Ward/Resolve and Bahraha's Curse.

    I missed the explanation above. Thanks for the knowledge. I crafted all my gear and am having a blast learning to tank.

    No problem, and happy to help!

    NB tanking is a lot of fun, and I've spoken to a handful of people in the past who have found it to be a welcomed change to DK tanking. They each have their advantages and disadvantages, but both are definitely viable in endgame scenarios. I know there are many other NB tanks out there who will do things differently than I do (and good on them, to each his/her own), but at the very least there is a reason for everything in this setup.

    Also, just as a point of reference, and to acknowledge the validity of doing so, were it not for a dual-spec setup in this build, I would be using Refreshing Path too. Bahraha's won't proc off of it, but there are already enough skills in the lineup that will proc it.
  • Drevick
    Drevick
    ✭✭
    Autolycus wrote: »
    Drevick wrote: »
    Autolycus wrote: »
    Drevick wrote: »
    Why concealed weapon? Wouldn't refreshing path be better for the proc?

    Someone asked this a bit further up. Refreshing Path would likely be the preferred option given a different setup. There are two key factors at play here:
    1. Twisting Path is used in the DPS setup that compliments this build. A magblade DPS setup that uses Scathing Mage must use Twisting Path. I'm not concerned about the minuscule damage that Twisting does in a full-tank setup. Refreshing would be great, but I can't use both.
    2. Neither morph of Path of Shadows can broc Bahraha's Curse. If you take that set out of the build, then it doesn't really matter.

    I would also note that Concealed Weapon is cheaper than Path, thus making it the noticeably more efficient means to proc both Major Ward/Resolve and Bahraha's Curse.

    I missed the explanation above. Thanks for the knowledge. I crafted all my gear and am having a blast learning to tank.

    No problem, and happy to help!

    NB tanking is a lot of fun, and I've spoken to a handful of people in the past who have found it to be a welcomed change to DK tanking. They each have their advantages and disadvantages, but both are definitely viable in endgame scenarios. I know there are many other NB tanks out there who will do things differently than I do (and good on them, to each his/her own), but at the very least there is a reason for everything in this setup.

    Also, just as a point of reference, and to acknowledge the validity of doing so, were it not for a dual-spec setup in this build, I would be using Refreshing Path too. Bahraha's won't proc off of it, but there are already enough skills in the lineup that will proc it.

    I am playing a nb spec'd for multiple roles too. I primarily dps, but am enjoying tanking and healing dailies for a change. I took refreshing over twisted because I'm not in a trial guild and the extra dps of twisted doesn't beat out the utility of refreshing for me. If I have scathing however, I'd change to twisted. Anyway, thanks again. I appreciate the knowledge sharing.
    Drevick Val'Varren
    Dark Elf Magicka Nightblade
    CP 300ish
  • Kot
    Kot
    Hi Autolycus!
    Nice guide, I am gonna try this build out. Which sets will be BiS when One Tamriel hit in your opinion?
  • Autolycus
    Autolycus
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    *** wrote: »
    Hi Autolycus!
    Nice guide, I am gonna try this build out. Which sets will be BiS when One Tamriel hit in your opinion?

    It depends what content you're looking at. For veteran and normal trials, and veteran and normal dungeons, I don't think anything will surpass the current setup. Use Dragon if you feel the need to crank out more ultimates than is already possible in this build. I can crank out War Horns very quickly without it and often find myself with an opportunity to use something else among the others in my group who run War Horn, so I'd say that Dragon and Bahraha's are interchangeable for any form of content as a tank. That being said, of course, I almost always use War Horn, but there are some good examples of situations in which a VoB is more practical. So far there has been no reason to believe that 'ultimate regen tanking' is going anywhere anytime soon, so I think this build is a safe bet in the next update. You can bet that I'll update it here if that changes.

    The exception would be for veteran hardmode bosses, in which case a higher health threshold is needed. Resistances can afford to be buffed slightly against hardmode bosses, which can easily be done through traits on armor/shield (reinforced), but there are other sets that either come in jewelry already or will in Update 12 that afford resistances and health or healing received, but for anything other than hardmode bosses the survivability of this build has been optimal relative to anything else I've tried.

    In Update 12 I'll be trading BC for Plague Doctor for hardmode bosses, else my setup will remain unchanged, at least until I find a compelling reason to do otherwise. I've been perusing these sets and reading up on PTS testing, but haven't found anything that really jumps out at me beyond Plague Doctor, and really the only reason for that is just for a health cushion. The health cushion isn't necessary for anything but the hardmode boss, so even when we plan to do hardmodes, I'll use this setup all the way to the end, and just swap BC for Plague Doctor. The healing on BC, while it is extremely potent in this setup, is not enough to offset the rapid heavy-hitters that, say the Warrior or the Mage's axes, are capable of throwing out.

    Edit: Since making this post, I've determined that Plague Doctor is overkill. I've updated the OP with details on my hardmode setup. It is still a viable set and can be used competitively, given my knowledge today (10/7/16).
    Edited by Autolycus on October 7, 2016 5:17PM
  • Autolycus
    Autolycus
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    - Updated -

    Current as of 12/22/2016.
  • Autolycus
    Autolycus
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    Updated for Homestead!
  • Autolycus
    Autolycus
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    I've decided that running a Charged weapon on the back bar with a Shock glyph is both efficient and logical for a NB tank, so I updated the guide to include the details on this (in the Traits section).
  • Kerioko
    Kerioko
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    How do you handle the twin adds in vMOL with no chains?

    Also for vMOL, my group's DK tank runs Alkosh/Powerful Assualt/Bloodspawn or Ebon/Alkosh/Warden.

    I tend to run Ebon/Dragon/Warden if he is in in the first set-up. And PA/Dragon/Sentinal if he is using Ebon.


    Can you recommend a better set to replace dragon with? My current group has no problem with warhorn uptime, so dragon is not really needed.

    Dinosaur Chicken Nuggets - Argonian mNB Tank/Heals (PVP)
    Strawberry Semifreddo - Dunmer mSorc DPS // Sunny D-Light - Breton mTemp Heals
    Peanut Butter Sandwich - Orc sDK DPS // Kellogg's Frosted Flakes - Argonian mWard Tank/Heals (PVE)
    Cor-Leonis
    friendship - integrity - perseverance
  • Autolycus
    Autolycus
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    Kerioko wrote: »
    How do you handle the twin adds in vMOL with no chains?

    Also for vMOL, my group's DK tank runs Alkosh/Powerful Assualt/Bloodspawn or Ebon/Alkosh/Warden.

    I tend to run Ebon/Dragon/Warden if he is in in the first set-up. And PA/Dragon/Sentinal if he is using Ebon.


    Can you recommend a better set to replace dragon with? My current group has no problem with warhorn uptime, so dragon is not really needed.

    That's a really good question. I'm happy to share what we do, just keep in mind that it might be different depending on how you have your group set up.

    Our group has 2 magicka DK dps that we designate for "chain duty." It's just the two of them doing it, and though it took some time practicing before we got it down, it will work just fine with 2. The tank with Skinrai (light boss) tries to keep him reasonably close to the center so that chaining the light adds to him is a one-step process, then we nuke the boss with AoE ults (usually Shooting Star) once the adds are stacked properly next to the boss.

    With Vashai (dark boss), we have the DK chain the dark adds to where the tank is going to be after the first negate - this is a two-step process usually, where the DK must chain them to the center, and then chain them again to where Vashai will be after the negate. The tank with Vashai will take him all the way to the wall (where one of them would stand during prayer phase), have him drop the first negate, and then move counter clockwise to where the adds are at (they should be in place by the time the first negate goes down, usually). If done properly, when the tank moves from the negate, the boss and adds are stacked. We ult bomb them once they are stacked.

    (Note: We have a very specific method for placing the negates - if it's not clear what I meant here I can put together a diagram or something, just let me know if it doesn't make sense)

    I reached the same conclusion with Dragon, and Blood Spawn too actually, as the ulti regen is not necessary to have our Horns active when we need them to be. Our group likes to keep both of our tanks running Alkosh to maximize the up-time on that debuff. Regardless of which class is main/off tank, (for our group) the main tank will wear Ebon/Alkosh/Warden (or BS) and the off tank will typically wear PA/Alkosh/Sentinel (or BS, or Warden, depending on the fight).

    So for example, on Zhaj'hassa, the main tank is in Ebon/Alkosh/BS and the off tank is in PA/Alkosh/Sentinel. The off tank is doing no real tanking on that fight, but is providing tons of buffs and supplementary healing. For Rhakkat it is the same setup. For the twins both tanks are in Ebon/Alkosh with either BS or Warden.

    Your DK's first setup is for usually off-tanking. That puts you on the on the boss, so I would use Ebon/Alkosh and either BS or Warden. Your DK's second setup is a main tank spec, so in that case I would be doing a full off-tanking setup like he does with PA/Alkosh/Sentinel. The only exception to this last part is the Twins, as tanking the twins in full medium is difficult and not recommended since your buffs are limited to just half of the group (and if you're on opposite sides of the room like us, your Ebon buffs might not reach the other group, so there's reason for both tanks to wear Ebon here).
    Edited by Autolycus on April 3, 2017 4:42PM
  • ghankhalav
    ghankhalav
    Soul Shriven
    How would you adjust this build for the expected nerfs to siphoning strikes morphs coming in the Morrowind patch? Devs for sure don't seem to be throwing sap tanks any bones beyond the buff to shadow barrier.
  • Autolycus
    Autolycus
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    ghankhalav wrote: »
    How would you adjust this build for the expected nerfs to siphoning strikes morphs coming in the Morrowind patch? Devs for sure don't seem to be throwing sap tanks any bones beyond the buff to shadow barrier.

    Based upon what I've seen in my tanking on PTS so far, the changes to the setup aren't changing the overall build. Basically, everything we do as magblade tanks scales with our magicka and SD (pretty much). So it still makes sense to get as much magicka and SD as we can without sacrificing survivability and group utility. The sets remain the same (for now), but my intent is to have a stamina pool that is only barely higher than my magicka pool - this is the point at which I can still get stamina from Orbs, but give up as little magicka to do so as I can. In essence, we're going to be even more 'hybrid' than we already are. We're coming from an environment where we could essentially convert a very small amount of magicka into insane amounts of stamina, and now we're spending stamina up-front to get an almost negligibly higher amount of stamina back. We need stamina support, for lack of better words.

    Unfortunately the buffs to Shadow Barrier don't really help us as tanks because re-casting Path already fit into the rotation very nicely, so this is mostly just a buff to non-tank NBs. It will help a little though considering Path is going to be less efficient to cast now. It already cost quite a bit relative to the other abilities in our kit, and now it costs more, so the added duration on Ward/Resolve helps to compensate for that cost increase.

    Besides that, everything I used that was Infused before will change to Sturdy, and since there are not very many good green CP stars to invest in as a tank any longer, I'll go 100 points into Shadow Ward (maybe fewer, will determine as I do more testing), with a large portion of the "extra" points going into Tenacity. For what it's worth, I'm still not doing heavy attacks for stam return because they take too long, and I'm still blocking almost everything that comes my way, but there really just aren't many good tanking CP stars in the green trees. In pvp perma-blocking is impossible now, but in a group pve setting with the typical support rolling out, perma-blocking is still pretty doable except in the most extreme cases.

    The biggest hit we took to our sustain is in trash pulls. From a boss perspective: Well, most bosses still only attack once per second, so there's really no change to sustain here. It doesn't cost more to block one attack, we simply get charged twice as often in trash pulls now. Unless they adjust bosses to attack more frequently our single-target situations are virtually unchanged. I'm simplifying this I'm sure, but the biggest change for us is that we can't just spam Sap during trash pulls. Losing the proc chance to SA is a hit for sure, but I think those of us who are already practiced at weaving light attacks all the time are going to have an easier transition into this update.

    The main takeaway from this last point, I'd say, is the fact that we are now healing for every light attack we do. This basically means that if we need to drop our block to regain resources, we are are going to offset any potential damage taken while block is down through our light attacks, which is the only reason we drop block anyway. The resource return may be garbage, but the risk of dropping block is offset by the healing. The only time this isn't good enough is for bosses, who can 1-shot us when block is down, and as I mentioned earlier, these changes don't really prevent us from perma-blocking bosses anyway. They have to change how frequently bosses attack for this to be different.

    So until further notice, sets remain the same. Attributes adjusted slightly in favor of a marginally higher stam pool so that we can get stam back from Orbs and Shards, but we are trying to retain as much magicka as we can. Full heavy, full sturdy, full prismatics. I'm planning to do 2 shieldplay and 1 magicka recovery on jewelry.

    I'll make an official update to this guide as I work out all of the details. Interestingly, the addition of Ironclad (reduced direct damage) and the added healing component to Leeching Strikes make it even harder to kill us. Survivability as a NB tank is at an all-time high with these changes, but personally I didn't feel that additional survivability was needed. I would have chosen group utility over anything else; even with heavy nerfs to sustain, added group utility would have been a welcomed compromise in my books.

    There are two key recommendations I've made in places on the forums to help balance NB tanks relative to other classes:
    1. Allow us to get a portion of our resources back with Siphoning Strikes based on how long it's been active, so basically like Rally but for resources, and
    2. Change only the Dark Cloak morph and get rid of the invisibility on it altogether. Replace this invisibility with a group-wide Minor Heroism for ~8s, and allow the casting NB to gain access to 2.5s of Minor Protection on cast. This gives us a unique form of mitigation that can really only be used for specific mechanics, e.g. the Warrior's sweeps and Rhakkat's chaingun, but brings valuable utility to the group that isn't present in any other class yet (and makes NB tanks especially relevant in this update if we account for some of the new sets that buff based on casting ults).
    Edited by Autolycus on May 8, 2017 8:45PM
  • ghankhalav
    ghankhalav
    Soul Shriven
    I'm definitely loving the change to Ironclad. Would pair well with the Bosmer resists if I take some points out of Hardy. I don't usually have much of an issue with stamina management with a decent amount of points in Shadow Ward so hopefully I don't have to mess with my gear set-ups too much, but I do still feel like the added healing from LS/SA won't do me much good. Then again, I haven't actually tested my setup on the PTS for myself. Which race do you think would be ideal?
  • Autolycus
    Autolycus
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    ghankhalav wrote: »
    I'm definitely loving the change to Ironclad. Would pair well with the Bosmer resists if I take some points out of Hardy. I don't usually have much of an issue with stamina management with a decent amount of points in Shadow Ward so hopefully I don't have to mess with my gear set-ups too much, but I do still feel like the added healing from LS/SA won't do me much good. Then again, I haven't actually tested my setup on the PTS for myself. Which race do you think would be ideal?

    I think the best options for sustain are probably Breton and Altmer for the reduced cost and recovery. If sustain is something you can handle without racial passives (which is doable, but up to you) then I'd go with Argonian (Argonian sustain is pretty good too since you get all resources back with a potion, regardless of potion type, and NBs use their potions on cooldown usually for ulti regen).

    The changes coming in Morrowind do make it harder to block all the time, but that's still the goal. For most fights it should still be realistic, at least given what I've seen so far. If we're blocking most of the time, then Bosmer passives don't really help us (we can't regen stam while blocking). The max stamina is easy enough to get from glyphs and attributes, so personally I'd prefer to get different passives that I can't get elsewhere. Without any reduced cost from CP, Breton makes a stronger case imo.
    Edited by Autolycus on May 10, 2017 2:50PM
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