Non-Gender Binary Characters

Ebonheart1111

Can we have it like the sims and drop the cis gender requirements for characters. For once I would like my Argonian to be accepted as lizardkin with liz lizz lizzie pronouns it has the right to go by. Stop triggering it by making it conform to male/female.

JD2013

Oh look another troll post.

How quaint.

Ebonheart1111

Not trolling. Very serious discussion in this day and age.

Burning_Talons

*See lame troll posts*
*Sees what guild they are in*
*Not surprised coming from a guild who was nothing better to do than sit idle n a PvE zone and with their tabards for 4 hours*

starlizard70ub17_ESO

Ebonheart1111 wrote: »

Not trolling. Very serious discussion in this day and age.

Be whatever the hell you want, seriously, "in this day and age" %99 of the people here will not care, (or even notice).

Ebonheart1111

Look whos trolling now. The question is serious. The sims did it. ESO following suit would mean a monumental shift in accessibility for all people regardless of gender.

Nestor

If this is really a concern for you, then just make an androgynous character. There are no Gender differences in the game other than appearance/voice sounds. Put the correct gear on them and you would never know what gender the character is.

Ebonheart1111

That is possible, but my concern is that the binary is still a prominent feature of the initial customization screen. It's the first thing you decide. Having a third option the middle for neutral gender would be a welcome addition and sign of inclusivity that the ES universe has been gearing towards. It seems like a natural progression that I hope developers will consider, especially when imagining how much press the decision will get, and subsequent new players.

ShedsHisTail

Ebonheart1111 wrote: »

Not trolling. Very serious discussion in this day and age.

It would be... If there were lizard-folk.

We're all Ken-dolls under our armor.

Ebonheart1111

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

It would be... If there were lizard-folk.

Are you implying reptilians arent real? I'm pretty sure the Queen of England is one.

starlizard70ub17_ESO

It will not get any press beyond a day or two of hype, and it will not result in any new players. Anyone who wanted to play ESO, is playing it, binary or not. Maybe next game they will concider it, but right now they have more importaint problems to be diverting resources to instead of reinventing the entire customization screen to include 3 gender choices. (And of course having to add entire 3rd art style for every set of armour for the non-binary. It wouldn't even end there. The gender choices could be; male, female, non-binary, male identifying as female, female identifying as male, werewolf identfying as vampire, etc. )

ShedsHisTail

Ebonheart1111 wrote: »

That is possible, but my concern is that the binary is still a prominent feature of the initial customization screen. It's the first thing you decide. Having a third option the middle for neutral gender would be a welcome addition and sign of inclusivity that the ES universe has been gearing towards. It seems like a natural progression that I hope developers will consider, especially when imagining how much press the decision will get, and subsequent new players.

You're confusing gender with sex.
Even people who identify as "gender-neutral" are equipped with some manner of genitalia describing some form of biological sex; with very few exception who are equipped with both.

Sex is biological. Gender is a societal construct.
In ESO character creation, you are choosing your biology, not your social role.

Ebonheart1111

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

You're confusing gender with sex.
Even people who identify as "gender-neutral" are equipped with some manner of genitalia describing some form of biological sex; with very few exception who are equipped with both.

Sex is biological. Gender is a societal construct.
In ESO character creation, you are choosing your biology, not your social role.

You're right yes, sex is different than gender, but for those who are born intersex or hermaphodite the decision isn't always clear as to what they should identify as biologically. Those catagories of people do exist and deserve options relating to their condition, but I suppose it is asking for alot.

Maybe an option should exist to where characters can either change their sex and also be able to choose any customization options/armor gender types they want.

AmakarGranaen

Ebonheart1111 wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

You're confusing gender with sex.
Even people who identify as "gender-neutral" are equipped with some manner of genitalia describing some form of biological sex; with very few exception who are equipped with both.

Sex is biological. Gender is a societal construct.
In ESO character creation, you are choosing your biology, not your social role.

You're right yes, sex is different than gender, but for those who are born intersex or hermaphodite the decision isn't always clear as to what they should identify as biologically. Those catagories of people do exist and deserve options relating to their condition, but I suppose it is asking for alot.

Maybe an option should exist to where characters can either change their sex and also be able to choose any customization options/armor gender types they want.

I agree. It would be good to have these options

ShedsHisTail

Ebonheart1111 wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

You're confusing gender with sex.
Even people who identify as "gender-neutral" are equipped with some manner of genitalia describing some form of biological sex; with very few exception who are equipped with both.

Sex is biological. Gender is a societal construct.
In ESO character creation, you are choosing your biology, not your social role.

You're right yes, sex is different than gender, but for those who are born intersex or hermaphodite the decision isn't always clear as to what they should identify as biologically. Those catagories of people do exist and deserve options relating to their condition, but I suppose it is asking for alot.

I suppose we should also include options for people born without sight, or hearing. Or voice options for people with a lisp or a stutter. Maybe make it possible to create characters who are missing limbs, or have extra limbs. Or, maybe roll up a character born with a palsy of some sort.

Those are also categories of people who do exist.

Yes, trying to account for every possible human variation in the interest of "inclusion" is asking for a lot.

RinOkumara

This is the most *** post I've ever seen might have to quit the game now.

Ebonheart1111

RinOkumara wrote: »

This is the most *** post I've ever seen might have to quit the game now.

Go ahead and quit, noone will miss you. If advocating for others makes you unfomfortable maybe you should move to the middle east.

Ebonheart1111

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

I suppose we should also include options for people born without sight, or hearing. Or voice options for people with a lisp or a stutter. Maybe make it possible to create characters who are missing limbs, or have extra limbs. Or, maybe roll up a character born with a palsy of some sort.

Those are also categories of people who do exist.

Yes, trying to account for every possible human variation in the interest of "inclusion" is asking for a lot.

No need for the mockery. In a perfect world everyone is taken into consideration, and positive change doesnt occur until things are discussed. Things like this may seem trivial to those who it doesnt affect but it makes the world of difference to those it does.

ShedsHisTail

Ebonheart1111 wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

I suppose we should also include options for people born without sight, or hearing. Or voice options for people with a lisp or a stutter. Maybe make it possible to create characters who are missing limbs, or have extra limbs. Or, maybe roll up a character born with a palsy of some sort.

Those are also categories of people who do exist.

Yes, trying to account for every possible human variation in the interest of "inclusion" is asking for a lot.

No need for the mockery. In a perfect world everyone is taken into consideration, and positive change doesnt occur until things are discussed. Things like this may seem trivial to those who it doesnt affect but it makes the world of difference to those it does.

There is no mockery. I'm as serious as you are. I just also happen to be realistic.
The fact that you think I'm mocking you tells me a lot about how you feel about conditions which don't affect you.

Ebonheart1111

I said mockery because you bringing up conditions that have never, or almost never, been represented in a game as customization options to lessen the argument that gender/sex neutral characters are a logical next step for ESO. Maybe it wont be a game changer for many people, but certainly will be a step in the right direction.

ShedsHisTail

Ebonheart1111 wrote: »

I said mockery because you bringing up conditions that have never, or almost never, been represented in a game as customization options to lessen the argument that gender/sex neutral characters are a logical next step for ESO. Maybe it wont be a game changer for many people, but certainly will be a step in the right direction.

Step in the right direction toward what?
We're talking about a video game. You know that, right? All you're asking for is a button click at character creation which will make exactly no difference and be completely unnoticeable -in game-. Unless you go around screaming, "I'm gender neutral!" in zone chat, not a single person will notice that you clicked that button.

This is you wanting something that only you can enjoy simply for the sake of making you feel better. As has been stated, you can already make an androgynous character, it's not even hard. Then you can self-identify as whatever you want. But as long as you're requesting a separate button-click just to make you feel better; it's vanity. That's all it is.

It doesn't make a statement, there is no "inclusion." You don't need a separate button to feel included. Nobody is being un-included now.

***, your original post was in regards to Argonians who don't even exist in the real world and have been biologically amorphous for the duration of the Elder Scrolls timeline. Make a short "male" Argonian with slight features, tell everyone you have lizard-parts and demand they use species-specific pronouns.

Ebonheart1111

A step in the right direction to make everyone feel welcomed into the ES world without having to submit to primitive models of masculine/feminine ideology that has dominated the world until recently. It's vanity, sure, but so are the pets, mounts, glittery costumes, and armor dyes.

Want to know what vanity really is? Player housing; Give me a break, avatars dont need a roof over their heads. Noone cares what digital treasures you lock up in your tiny 40$ instance that you can use to hold imaginty trophies and impress the 3 other people you can have inside of it. Completely useless and vain as a tub of milk.

A Barbershop? Lerd have murcy... Heaven forbid you were randomly assigned cornroes instead of a mohawk! Thats a real issue and not vain at all.

The ability to have a more accurate reflection of oneself in a game where one spends alot of time is not vain, and will eventually develop to mirror contemporary times.

Totalitarian

Any reason why this is in the sanctuary of peace that is Fiction and Roleplaying? ;_;

Anyways, I see no reason as to why you can't roleplay as a gender-neutral character, but something you have to consider is that gender neutrality is much more common today than it was in the past because today we have advanced medical technology that can be used to modify ourselves.

Of course, in the past, where the technology is similar to that of ESO, they didn't have that available. People were generally born male or female, and from there, you have your more chimeric genders which were true gender neutrality (meaning being born without either gender's genitalia), or a chimera, with both.

ShedsHisTail

Ebonheart1111 wrote: »

A step in the right direction to make everyone feel welcomed into the ES world without having to submit to primitive models of masculine/feminine ideology that has dominated the world until recently. It's vanity, sure, but so are the pets, mounts, glittery costumes, and armor dyes.

Want to know what vanity really is? Player housing; Give me a break, avatars dont need a roof over their heads. Noone cares what digital treasures you lock up in your tiny 40$ instance that you can use to hold imaginty trophies and impress the 3 other people you can have inside of it. Completely useless and vain as a tub of milk.

A Barbershop? Lerd have murcy... Heaven forbid you were randomly assigned cornroes instead of a mohawk! Thats a real issue and not vain at all.

The ability to have a more accurate reflection of oneself in a game where one spends alot of time is not vain, and will eventually develop to mirror contemporary times.

The difference is, these are things you can actually see in game.
Your button click is not.

Ebonheart1111

Totalitarian wrote: »

Of course, in the past, where the technology is similar to that of ESO, they didn't have that available. People were generally born male or female, and from there, you have your more chimeric genders which were true gender neutrality (meaning being born without either gender's genitalia), or a chimera, with both.

Sure the tech might not be what we have today, but who knows for sure what the Dwemers were capable of? I mean cmon, if their women had beards, what else could be cooking below the equator?

Also I'm sure there is a spell or two that could give you the ol' downstairs mixup. With the amount of mischief going on someone must have crafted a spell to change their sex.

Flynch

Ebonheart1111 wrote: »

Totalitarian wrote: »

Of course, in the past, where the technology is similar to that of ESO, they didn't have that available. People were generally born male or female, and from there, you have your more chimeric genders which were true gender neutrality (meaning being born without either gender's genitalia), or a chimera, with both.

Sure the tech might not be what we have today, but who knows for sure what the Dwemers were capable of? I mean cmon, if their women had beards, what else could be cooking below the equator?

Also I'm sure there is a spell or two that could give you the ol' downstairs mixup. With the amount of mischief going on someone must have crafted a spell to change their sex.

How bored are you right now?

Ebonheart1111

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

The difference is, these are things you can actually see in game.
Your button click is not.

Sometimes you dont have to see something to know it's there. Even more so, it's a gesture of inclusion that promotes the best of diversity and acceptance. It all goes towards the greater good.

Skitttles

Oops! You made a goof, this isn't Tumblr silly.

ShedsHisTail

Ebonheart1111 wrote: »

Totalitarian wrote: »

Of course, in the past, where the technology is similar to that of ESO, they didn't have that available. People were generally born male or female, and from there, you have your more chimeric genders which were true gender neutrality (meaning being born without either gender's genitalia), or a chimera, with both.

Sure the tech might not be what we have today, but who knows for sure what the Dwemers were capable of? I mean cmon, if their women had beards, what else could be cooking below the equator?

Also I'm sure there is a spell or two that could give you the ol' downstairs mixup. With the amount of mischief going on someone must have crafted a spell to change their sex.

What the crap does technology have to do with how people are born? Nobody is genetically engineering gender-neutral people. No one is brewing up hermaphrodites in a lab somewhere. Gender orientation has -nothing- to do with biology or technology.

Do either of you understand how biology works?

Whatever, I'm sure the barber shop will allow for changes in character sex.

ShedsHisTail

Ebonheart1111 wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

The difference is, these are things you can actually see in game.
Your button click is not.

Sometimes you dont have to see something to know it's there. Even more so, it's a gesture of inclusion that promotes the best of diversity and acceptance. It all goes towards the greater good.

No, it goes to wasting the time of the development team.

Don't get me wrong, I want to be clear about this, I don't have any issue with people who identify anywhere along the gender spectrum, regardless of what is or is not hanging between their legs. Had this feature been in place at release, wouldn't have bothered me in the least.

But I still don't see how it's a good use of development resources, how it adds anything to game play, or fosters an atmosphere of inclusion to add it in later.

Ebonheart1111

Well, I mean tech for sex reassignment. Which, like you said, will probly be available in the Barbershop/surgery lab. Going a bit further, in true hermetic magick, the hermaphrodite was the most complete form of human- both qualities of humanity merged into a complete being, but that's for another thread.