Help with penetration

Samwell Slayer

.Now that I got all the perverts attention, here is another long and boring post I make while I await my computer's that the 5 hardcore nerds will love, but the other 99% of the gamers who RP will look down their nose at.

~~~> If you want the short version, I want to know one thing. How much mitagation do the major bosses and mobs in this game have?


I want to ask a question (I'm magika typically so I'm going to talk from that POV). The contributing factor to pve DPS that is hardest to understand in this game is penetration. This is simply because of wildly varying amounts of spell resistance mobs have. This makes it nearly impossible to figure out the ideal number of cp one should put into it.

For starters, at vr16 having 100 points (I'm saying 100 cuz i remember the numbers and i don't have the game while my computer is getting repaired) into it gives us (ignore the number) the ability to overcome 8% (the number stated times your level .. which is probably 66 essentially gives the numbers you see ... why ZOS why ..) of the enemies mitagation. This means for an enemy with 50% mit, you reduce that mit to 42%. So if the tool tip says your ability will do 100 damage, it would have done 50 damage before, but now it does 58 damage. This is a 16% boost to all damage you do to this creature. On the other hand, if you put these same 100 points into elfborn, which increase your critical strike to non critical strike ratio, you will get a total of 2/3*25=16.777 more damage on this same target (if you're a sorc or dk and there are no war horns, traps, etc and far less if there are) but only on critical strikes. So in this specific situation, since the first skill works on all attacks while the 2nd only works for critical attacks, its better to put the cp into spell pen passive.

Of course the big assumption is that creature has 50% mit. This is, in fact, impossible if you're wearing 5 light armor since the light armor ability already reduces the target mit. Moreover in the application of ele drain (or mark target or pierce armor), power of the light, nirn weapons, destro passives many targets have no mit whatsoever. Test it out, apply ele drain to a target and note how your non-crit strikes do exactly the same amount of damage as the tool tip states. I've been seeing this even when using a precise weapon. And of course, if the target has 0 mit, any cp you put into reducing the targets mit is a complete and total waste.

To do this accurately, you really need to penetrate the mobs while naked ... (hehe) ... But seriously. This will eliminate any pen you have (of course with no cp into it). To measure the targets mit you simply need to hit the target once (assuming you don't crit) and divide by the listed tool tip value (this is ignoring the tiny amount of mit reduction [spell pen] everybody has which I think ZOS put into the game to make the numbers look ugly).

Here lies the problem. To get a sense of what kind of mit serious enemies have I need to get naked. Clearly, this isn't an option for the real things I want to test like the bosses in trials or dungeons. I can't stop the raid and say, "hold up people. I need to get naked for a second here. I know we want a good score, but I need to perform a penetration test on the warrior." Even if you can calculate your pen exactly (I think there's an addon which does this ... but it doesn't make it clear how nirn weapons affect things), you probably don't know which debuffs were applied to the target or buffs were applied to you when you hit him.


Is there a data base, or could we start one (like there is for other games) of enemies and their mits? If not, does anybody know of an addon which can be used? Alternatively, if you are in a failed Hel Ra or other trial run, could you take a second and do a naked penetration test on the warrior or mage? Even on Kena?

Volkodav

Yes,your title just dropped my mind right square in the gutter.
(And I am NOT as pervert) XD
I know,if I had nothing to say about that huge post,I shouldnt say anything,.Right?
Personally,I never pay attention to amounts of DPS or stats,etc.I just play the game without being a tech.

Samwell Slayer

Volkodav wrote: »

Yes,your title just dropped my mind right square in the gutter.
(And I am NOT as pervert) XD
I know,if I had nothing to say about that huge post,I shouldnt say anything,.Right?
Personally,I never pay attention to amounts of DPS or stats,etc.I just play the game without being a tech.

It's amazing the things one thinks of while waiting on a broken computer .

Volkodav

Samwell Slayer wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

Yes,your title just dropped my mind right square in the gutter.
(And I am NOT as pervert) XD
I know,if I had nothing to say about that huge post,I shouldnt say anything,.Right?
Personally,I never pay attention to amounts of DPS or stats,etc.I just play the game without being a tech.

It's amazing the things one thinks of while waiting on a broken computer .

Ahahaha! Yes it is. I've been there.:D

americansteel

the title. hahahahaha

Waffennacht

@Asayre knows. His CP calculator knows the boss mitigations. Oh great @Asayre we call upon your mathidom!

Asayre

I think you want this
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/2-1-boss-resistance/
Most bosses have 18k physical and spell resistance.

I think you were thinking of PvE in which case all veteran mobs are level 50. You can refer to this post under Damage Calculation: Base Damage for more details.

Samwell Slayer

Asayre wrote: »

I think you want this
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/2-1-boss-resistance/
Most bosses have 18k physical and spell resistance.

I think you were thinking of PvE in which case all veteran mobs are level 50. You can refer to this post under Damage Calculation: Base Damage for more details.

I didn't know that, but it's not very relevant. The meaningful concept is the mit, not the armor/spell resist. You're telling me that most bosses have 25% mits (18k/66) or 36% mits (18k/50)? I assume the former only because 25 is a sexy number. Thanks a lot for finding that article!

Another question, while I have you here, do nirn weapons tack onto debuffs you put on a target? I'd assume not, but if the only pen you have comes from wearing light armor (assuming no cp) and tiny amount you get inheriently, you should only see about a 1.7% increase in damage (hence dps) on ele drained bosses. However precise will increase your dps by 1/2*7=3.5 percent at the very least (in practice closer to 7). I must be missing something here since these numbers are so different people would have abandoned nirn long ago!

leepalmer95

Samwell Slayer wrote: »

Asayre wrote: »

I think you want this
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/2-1-boss-resistance/
Most bosses have 18k physical and spell resistance.

I think you were thinking of PvE in which case all veteran mobs are level 50. You can refer to this post under Damage Calculation: Base Damage for more details.

I didn't know that, but it's not very relevant. The meaningful concept is the mit, not the armor/spell resist. You're telling me that most bosses have 25% mits (18k/66) or 36% mits (18k/50)? I assume the former only because 25 is a sexy number. Thanks a lot for finding that article!

Another question, while I have you here, do nirn weapons tack onto debuffs you put on a target? I'd assume not, but if the only pen you have comes from wearing light armor (assuming no cp) and tiny amount you get inheriently, you should only see about a 1.7% increase in damage (hence dps) on ele drained bosses. However precise will increase your dps by 1/2*7=3.5 percent at the very least (in practice closer to 7). I must be missing something here since these numbers are so different people would have abandoned nirn long ago!

Penetration % works first in reducting somethings armour. It works before flat penetration. E.g. If a boss has 20k armour, 20% from a 2h maul would reduce it by 4k first before any flat penetration takes place.

bryanhaas

Samwell Slayer wrote: »

.Now that I got all the perverts attention, here is another long and boring post I make while I await my computer's that the 5 hardcore nerds will love, but the other 99% of the gamers who RP will look down their nose at.

~~~> If you want the short version, I want to know one thing. How much mitagation do the major bosses and mobs in this game have?


I want to ask a question (I'm magika typically so I'm going to talk from that POV). The contributing factor to pve DPS that is hardest to understand in this game is penetration. This is simply because of wildly varying amounts of spell resistance mobs have. This makes it nearly impossible to figure out the ideal number of cp one should put into it.

For starters, at vr16 having 100 points (I'm saying 100 cuz i remember the numbers and i don't have the game while my computer is getting repaired) into it gives us (ignore the number) the ability to overcome 8% (the number stated times your level .. which is probably 66 essentially gives the numbers you see ... why ZOS why ..) of the enemies mitagation. This means for an enemy with 50% mit, you reduce that mit to 42%. So if the tool tip says your ability will do 100 damage, it would have done 50 damage before, but now it does 58 damage. This is a 16% boost to all damage you do to this creature. On the other hand, if you put these same 100 points into elfborn, which increase your critical strike to non critical strike ratio, you will get a total of 2/3*25=16.777 more damage on this same target (if you're a sorc or dk and there are no war horns, traps, etc and far less if there are) but only on critical strikes. So in this specific situation, since the first skill works on all attacks while the 2nd only works for critical attacks, its better to put the cp into spell pen passive.

Of course the big assumption is that creature has 50% mit. This is, in fact, impossible if you're wearing 5 light armor since the light armor ability already reduces the target mit. Moreover in the application of ele drain (or mark target or pierce armor), power of the light, nirn weapons, destro passives many targets have no mit whatsoever. Test it out, apply ele drain to a target and note how your non-crit strikes do exactly the same amount of damage as the tool tip states. I've been seeing this even when using a precise weapon. And of course, if the target has 0 mit, any cp you put into reducing the targets mit is a complete and total waste.

To do this accurately, you really need to penetrate the mobs while naked ... (hehe) ... But seriously. This will eliminate any pen you have (of course with no cp into it). To measure the targets mit you simply need to hit the target once (assuming you don't crit) and divide by the listed tool tip value (this is ignoring the tiny amount of mit reduction [spell pen] everybody has which I think ZOS put into the game to make the numbers look ugly).

Here lies the problem. To get a sense of what kind of mit serious enemies have I need to get naked. Clearly, this isn't an option for the real things I want to test like the bosses in trials or dungeons. I can't stop the raid and say, "hold up people. I need to get naked for a second here. I know we want a good score, but I need to perform a penetration test on the warrior." Even if you can calculate your pen exactly (I think there's an addon which does this ... but it doesn't make it clear how nirn weapons affect things), you probably don't know which debuffs were applied to the target or buffs were applied to you when you hit him.


Is there a data base, or could we start one (like there is for other games) of enemies and their mits? If not, does anybody know of an addon which can be used? Alternatively, if you are in a failed Hel Ra or other trial run, could you take a second and do a naked penetration test on the warrior or mage? Even on Kena?

Obligatory giggity post.


Giggity.

Turelus

Not going to lie, also came here because of the thread title and wanted to see all the troll/joke replies.

Samwell Slayer

Reading the article, I'm very suspicious about these calculations. For one, the author

Asayre wrote: »

I think you want this
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/2-1-boss-resistance/
Most bosses have 18k physical and spell resistance.

I think you were thinking of PvE in which case all veteran mobs are level 50. You can refer to this post under Damage Calculation: Base Damage for more details.

Reading the article in more detail

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Samwell Slayer wrote: »

Asayre wrote: »

I think you want this
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/2-1-boss-resistance/
Most bosses have 18k physical and spell resistance.

I think you were thinking of PvE in which case all veteran mobs are level 50. You can refer to this post under Damage Calculation: Base Damage for more details.

I didn't know that, but it's not very relevant. The meaningful concept is the mit, not the armor/spell resist. You're telling me that most bosses have 25% mits (18k/66) or 36% mits (18k/50)? I assume the former only because 25 is a sexy number. Thanks a lot for finding that article!

Another question, while I have you here, do nirn weapons tack onto debuffs you put on a target? I'd assume not, but if the only pen you have comes from wearing light armor (assuming no cp) and tiny amount you get inheriently, you should only see about a 1.7% increase in damage (hence dps) on ele drained bosses. However precise will increase your dps by 1/2*7=3.5 percent at the very least (in practice closer to 7). I must be missing something here since these numbers are so different people would have abandoned nirn long ago!

Penetration % works first in reducting somethings armour. It works before flat penetration. E.g. If a boss has 20k armour, 20% from a 2h maul would reduce it by 4k first before any flat penetration takes place.

Ok, I think I got it. So if fighting some super heavy spell resistant dude with capped spell resist, nirn will allow you to basically ignore 18/2=9% of it's mit, so you'd end up doing 18% more damage. For bosses with 25% mit you'd ignore 0.18/4 of its mit allowing you to do 0.18/(4*0.75)=6% more damage, etc.

Does this mean (while being buck naked except for holding a nirn staff and no CP into spell erorision) if you put ele drain on something you'd get the boss who previously had 25% mit all the way to 25-18/4-8=12.5% mit? (Giving 16.66666% more damage?!). This is quite a lot!

Asayre

Samwell Slayer wrote: »

I didn't know that, but it's not very relevant. The meaningful concept is the mit, not the armor/spell resist. You're telling me that most bosses have 25% mits (18k/66) or 36% mits (18k/50)? I assume the former only because 25 is a sexy number. Thanks a lot for finding that article!

PvE bosses have 36% mitigation.

Samwell Slayer wrote: »

Ok, I think I got it. So if fighting some super heavy spell resistant dude with capped spell resist, nirn will allow you to basically ignore 18/2=9% of it's mit, so you'd end up doing 18% more damage. For bosses with 25% mit you'd ignore 0.18/4 of its mit allowing you to do 0.18/(4*0.75)=6% more damage, etc.

Does this mean (while being buck naked except for holding a nirn staff and no CP into spell erorision) if you put ele drain on something you'd get the boss who previously had 25% mit all the way to 25-18/4-8=12.5% mit? (Giving 16.66666% more damage?!). This is quite a lot!

Sorry I'm not too sure what your maths is trying to show but it seems a bit off. For a typical PvE boss with 18k resistance (36% mitigation). A legendary nirnhoned staff (18%) will reduce the resistance of the boss to 14.76k or 29.52% mitigation (18k*(1-0.18) resistance). This is then reduced by flat mitigation like Concentration.

newtinmpls

#phraseology


Um... no my mind didn't fall into the gutter it was already there.

Very nice post. Lots of data and numbers.

I have no idea what you said.