Discussion on What is Mundus & The Daedric Planes

ArchMikem

I've read up and down the Lore of Elder Scrolls and the world of Nirn and I have an understanding of what it generally and currently is. But It still boggles the mind of the exact why's and how's of it all. I'm a guy that NEEDS the explanations for things, to understand the real reasons. I don't want to ask for the Cake and get a Bagel.

So first off, we all know that Nirn is a planet with two Moons, Masser and Secunda. This suggests that Nirn is similar to that of our real world counterparts, Earth and it's moon Luna, (except when you forego the habitable biosphere, it's more like Mars). This would also, therefore, suggest that Nirn and it's Moons exist in an area of Space, like ours, to which it orbits a Star, like ours, and in that space are billions of other stars in the cosmos that make up the constellations, like ours.

We could then draw from this a conclusion that Nirn is an ordinary planet with two moons, in a Solar System somewhere in some Galaxy, in some Universe, if not our own Universe. (We don't need to get into the whole multiple Universe theory here.) However there's a big roadbump here. The Daedric Planes of Oblivion.

The Planes of Oblivion is what puzzles me the most about a world that has Furry Cat Humans and everyone can shoot fireballs from their palms. The Realms of Oblivion are obviously shown as not being a part of Nirn. They are separate locations that reside outside Nirn's own space time, however those that reside in these Realms are well aware of Nirn and it's on-goings, and travel between Oblivion and Nirn is more or less very common place. If Sorcerers from the Mage's Guild can open a portal to Oblivion, then we can assume travel there is relatively simple.

My first thought is that Oblivion exists as a separate Dimension from Nirn. Inter-Dimensional Travel is a well known theory in Science Fiction and Pop Culture, and the theory that there exists numerous Dimensions, both Alternate and Parallel is an established Theory, so obviously I'm going to assume Oblivion is a different Dimension that can be accessed via Magical Portal. If that were the case though, then how is it that each plane of Oblivion is hospitable to the Races of Nirn? Comparable temperatures, Air to breathe. It's almost like they were artificially created by supreme beings that also had a hand in making Nirn. gasp

With the Lore, it says that the Stars in the sky are actually holes bored into Aetherius whenever a Spirit leaves the Mundus, the Suns itself being the hole that Magnus tore when he left after creating the Mundus. If these really are holes into something, and not just the Stars that we know to exist, then that would mean that Nirn and it's moons exist in this pocket of space, to which the realm of Aetherius completely surrounds it. That would mean the space Nirn occupies is limited. Would that mean there is a tangible boundary between Mundus and Aetherius? What would happen if the Races of Nirn advanced far enough to leave Nirn and travel outward. What would they find?

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Part of your problem is that you ARE ordering your cake and getting a bagel. Nirn is a dream world, and the fact that the sky looks like stars and moons is just how mortal minds interpret what they see, because the reality is incomprehensible to them.

Enodoc

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

Part of your problem is that you ARE ordering your cake and getting a bagel.

Or, more accurately, ordering a bagel and getting a bread roll, as the hole in the bagel is analogically imperceptible.

ArchMikem wrote: »

I've read up and down the Lore of Elder Scrolls and the world of Nirn and I have an understanding of what it generally and currently is. But It still boggles the mind of the exact why's and how's of it all. I'm a guy that NEEDS the explanations for things, to understand the real reasons. I don't want to ask for the Cake and get a Bagel.

So first off, we all know that Nirn is a planet with two Moons, Masser and Secunda. This suggests that Nirn is similar to that of our real world counterparts, Earth and it's moon Luna, (except when you forego the habitable biosphere, it's more like Mars). This would also, therefore, suggest that Nirn and it's Moons exist in an area of Space, like ours, to which it orbits a Star, like ours, and in that space are billions of other stars in the cosmos that make up the constellations, like ours.

We could then draw from this a conclusion that Nirn is an ordinary planet with two moons, in a Solar System somewhere in some Galaxy, in some Universe, if not our own Universe. (We don't need to get into the whole multiple Universe theory here.) However there's a big roadbump here. The Daedric Planes of Oblivion.

The Planes of Oblivion is what puzzles me the most about a world that has Furry Cat Humans and everyone can shoot fireballs from their palms. The Realms of Oblivion are obviously shown as not being a part of Nirn. They are separate locations that reside outside Nirn's own space time, however those that reside in these Realms are well aware of Nirn and it's on-goings, and travel between Oblivion and Nirn is more or less very common place. If Sorcerers from the Mage's Guild can open a portal to Oblivion, then we can assume travel there is relatively simple.

My first thought is that Oblivion exists as a separate Dimension from Nirn. Inter-Dimensional Travel is a well known theory in Science Fiction and Pop Culture, and the theory that there exists numerous Dimensions, both Alternate and Parallel is an established Theory, so obviously I'm going to assume Oblivion is a different Dimension that can be accessed via Magical Portal. If that were the case though, then how is it that each plane of Oblivion is hospitable to the Races of Nirn? Comparable temperatures, Air to breathe. It's almost like they were artificially created by supreme beings that also had a hand in making Nirn. gasp

With the Lore, it says that the Stars in the sky are actually holes bored into Aetherius whenever a Spirit leaves the Mundus, the Suns itself being the hole that Magnus tore when he left after creating the Mundus. If these really are holes into something, and not just the Stars that we know to exist, then that would mean that Nirn and it's moons exist in this pocket of space, to which the realm of Aetherius completely surrounds it. That would mean the space Nirn occupies is limited. Would that mean there is a tangible boundary between Mundus and Aetherius? What would happen if the Races of Nirn advanced far enough to leave Nirn and travel outward. What would they find?

On Nirn and the Moons
Yes, Nirn is a planet with two moons. Nirn is finite, and has a tangible boundary "edge", and so is indeed similar to Earth. The moons, however, are infinite. They are "dead" planes, whose rotations through various states of decay result in the appearance of moon phases. The moons orbit Nirn, as they are the attendant spirits of the mortal plane. Nirn itself doesn't orbit anything, and just floats in "space".

On Space and Oblivion
"Space" is how a mortal mind perceives the infinity of Oblivion. There are eight planets in visible space, which are the planes of the Aedra, and each of those eight plane(t)s is infinite in size. But since these eight infinite plane(t)s are surrounded by Oblivion, itself being infinite, the mortal mind perceives them as spherical.

On Transliminal Passage (travel to Oblivion)
Travel to Oblivion is not actually particularly commonplace, as the magics required are not readily available to the majority of the population. No sorcerer can open a portal to Oblivion without previous daedric intervention; conjurers of Daedra are only able to do so due to the binding rituals created by the Direnni clan sorcerers in the First Era, while anyone who wants to open a portal to a Daedric Plane for mortal travel first requires a transliminal morpholith, which can only be acquired with direct daedric assistance. Each Daedric Plane is infinite, so you may indeed consider each one a separate "dimension".

On the Hospitability of Oblivion
Not all planes of Oblivion are particularly hospitable; Azura's realm, Moonshadow, renders all mortal visitors half-blind, while Malacath's Ashpit is filled with choking ash. But where you say "artificially created by supreme beings that also had a hand in making Nirn", you are almost spot on, just backwards. The realms of Oblivion were created by exactly and only those supreme beings (et'Ada) which did not contribute to making Nirn. The et'Ada who created Nirn are the Aedra, while the Daedra are the ones who did not (and thus had the power to create full planes of their own).

On Aetherius and the Stars
As mentioned above, space is infinite, but since it is surrounded by Aetherius, the mortal mind perceives it as the inside of a sphere (much like the infinite planets are perceived as spheres within "space"). The stars are tears in Oblivion from which the light of Aetherius shines through to Mundus. These are perceived as holes on the inside surface of the sphere, and are therefore all the same distance from Nirn, but that distance is infinite.

On Space Travel
Certainly an interesting concept. I would imagine that anyone who was able to "leave" Nirn, if that was even possible, and travel a finite distance outwards would never get any closer to any astronomical object. Something finite subtracted from infinity is still infinity.

ArchMikem

Enodoc wrote: »

On Nirn and the Moons
Yes, Nirn is a planet with two moons. Nirn is finite, and has a tangible boundary "edge", and so is indeed similar to Earth. The moons, however, are infinite. They are "dead" planes, whose rotations through various states of decay result in the appearance of moon phases. The moons orbit Nirn, as they are the attendant spirits of the mortal plane. Nirn itself doesn't orbit anything, and just floats in "space".

The moons are infinite-sized planes that somehow create the visual we perceive as a sphere? Is it in a way that while on Nirn we see a sphere, because in reality we're only seeing one end, or edge of the plane while the rest stretch out for behind and beyond it in the opposite, perpendicular direction, like a cylinder or cone? But then that would mean if the plane had the 3 dimensional shape of said cone then someone somewhere on Nirn would be able to see that shape, instead of the sphere, so it can't be that. So then back to the question, how is it an infinitely sized plane or realm when all we see are finite sized spheres.

On Space Travel
Certainly an interesting concept. I would imagine that anyone who was able to "leave" Nirn, if that was even possible, and travel a finite distance outwards would never get any closer to any astronomical object. Something finite subtracted from infinity is still infinity.

If something can be seen, then it has an origin point. But I need to remind myself that our Science has absolutely no bearing on this Universe. Still it's difficult to accept that things like the holes to Aetherius are there, yet not there. That you can see them, but never reach them for they hold no tangible location.

Nirn itself doesn't orbit anything, and just floats in "space".

If Nirn itself doesn't orbit anything, then how are Seasons explained? The passing of days and nights can be explained simply by the world rotating in place, but if it just sit there and "floats", then that would surely mean the different regions of the planet would experience permanent Seasons.

Enodoc

ArchMikem wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

On Nirn and the Moons
Yes, Nirn is a planet with two moons. Nirn is finite, and has a tangible boundary "edge", and so is indeed similar to Earth. The moons, however, are infinite. They are "dead" planes, whose rotations through various states of decay result in the appearance of moon phases. The moons orbit Nirn, as they are the attendant spirits of the mortal plane. Nirn itself doesn't orbit anything, and just floats in "space".

The moons are infinite-sized planes that somehow create the visual we perceive as a sphere? Is it in a way that while on Nirn we see a sphere, because in reality we're only seeing one end, or edge of the plane while the rest stretch out for behind and beyond it in the opposite, perpendicular direction, like a cylinder or cone? But then that would mean if the plane had the 3 dimensional shape of said cone then someone somewhere on Nirn would be able to see that shape, instead of the sphere, so it can't be that. So then back to the question, how is it an infinitely sized plane or realm when all we see are finite sized spheres.

An existential plane is multi-dimensional; we can see at most three dimensions at once. We see a sphere because we cannot visually process the concept of one infinite plane enclosed by another. Consider a mathematical analogy; the set of rational numbers Q is an infinite set contained within the infinite set of real numbers R, and we visually represent one infinite set inside another as circles.

"Real numbers" is analogous to space, and "Rational numbers" is analogous to the moons. Both are infinite, but one is a smaller infinity inside a larger one.

On Space Travel
Certainly an interesting concept. I would imagine that anyone who was able to "leave" Nirn, if that was even possible, and travel a finite distance outwards would never get any closer to any astronomical object. Something finite subtracted from infinity is still infinity.

If something can be seen, then it has an origin point. But I need to remind myself that our Science has absolutely no bearing on this Universe. Still it's difficult to accept that things like the holes to Aetherius are there, yet not there. That you can see them, but never reach them for they hold no tangible location.

This is another example of a three-dimensional representation of something that is multi-dimensional. As close as you may get in your three dimensional travel, you will never get any closer in any of the other dimensions. Or, as an alternative explanation, Science can't explain Magic. And the stars are literally a visual representation of Magic.

Nirn itself doesn't orbit anything, and just floats in "space".

If Nirn itself doesn't orbit anything, then how are Seasons explained? The passing of days and nights can be explained simply by the world rotating in place, but if it just sit there and "floats", then that would surely mean the different regions of the planet would experience permanent Seasons.

While the sun is a fixed (yet also infinite) distance away from Nirn (and the same distance away as the stars), it does not have a fixed location like the stars do. The sun moves around the heavens, and the constellation it is nearest at sunrise determines the season.

ArchMikem

Both are infinite, but one is a smaller infinity inside a larger one.

Isn't that contradictory. Two things cannot be of differing size if both are Infinite.

As close as you may get in your three dimensional travel, you will never get any closer in any of the other dimensions. Or, as an alternative explanation, Science can't explain Magic. And the stars are literally a visual representation of Magic.

While the sun is a fixed (yet also infinite) distance away from Nirn (and the same distance away as the stars), it does not have a fixed location like the stars do. The sun moves around the heavens, and the constellation it is nearest at sunrise determines the season.

I'm about reaching the point of giving up. I had believed myself to accept that there could be different ways a Universe could exist as opposed to the Reality we are used to, but this just boggles the mind. One of the most basic reasonings is that EVERYTHING has a beginning. Nothing can just simply be and always have been. Even the first Gods, or "Gods" should have a beginning themselves. But if they really just simply are, and everything about this Universe, from Oblivion to Nirn, to every living thing on Nirn are just creations, toys, playthings that live in one astronomically infinite cage built by beings that can't be understood. It makes the life I've given my characters in Elder Scrolls seem pretty pointless really.

Gotta ask, not sure what Community Ambassador means but are you affiliated with Bethesda in some way? Have you had a hand in the Lore?

Shunravi

ArchMikem wrote: »

Both are infinite, but one is a smaller infinity inside a larger one.

Isn't that contradictory. Two things cannot be of differing size if both are Infinite.

The logic for different infinities essentally goes that you can have an infinity of whole numbers 0,1,2,3, -> infinity. However you can have an infinity of rational numbers between any two whole numbers, 1.00000001, 1.00000002, -> infinity <2. (An infinite ammount of zeros behind the decimal, just ilustrating the idea)

Yes they are both infinity, and therefore limitless, but the rational infinites do seem... more as there is one between every whole number. Its an interesting concept.

Shunravi

ArchMikem wrote: »

I'm about reaching the point of giving up. I had believed myself to accept that there could be different ways a Universe could exist as opposed to the Reality we are used to, but this just boggles the mind. One of the most basic reasonings is that EVERYTHING has a beginning. Nothing can just simply be and always have been. Even the first Gods, or "Gods" should have a beginning themselves. But if they really just simply are, and everything about this Universe, from Oblivion to Nirn, to every living thing on Nirn are just creations, toys, playthings that live in one astronomically infinite cage built by beings that can't be understood. It makes the life I've given my characters in Elder Scrolls seem pretty pointless really.

Oh, and welcome to your existential crisis. In the grand scale of the universe, everything is rather pointless....

WhiteCoatSyndrome

ArchMikem wrote: »

But if they really just simply are, and everything about this Universe, from Oblivion to Nirn, to every living thing on Nirn are just creations, toys, playthings that live in one astronomically infinite cage built by beings that can't be understood. It makes the life I've given my characters in Elder Scrolls seem pretty pointless really.

Careful; my understanding is that that's how you zero-sum (read: wipe yourself out of existence). You want to go in the other direction ('nothing matters, therefore, I can do whatever I want).

altemriel

check this out
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/fan-art-cosmological-map-of-the-elder-scrolls-universe/

ArchMikem

altemriel wrote: »

check this out
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/fan-art-cosmological-map-of-the-elder-scrolls-universe/

Good Lord...

Enodoc

ArchMikem wrote: »

Both are infinite, but one is a smaller infinity inside a larger one.

Isn't that contradictory. Two things cannot be of differing size if both are Infinite.

That's why I gave a real-world analogy of contained infinites, for a bit of grounding.

Take the set of all possible positive whole numbers, N. These are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ..., and that set is infinite. Then take the set of all non-zero integers, Z \ {0}. This effectively has twice as many things in it as N, but is still infinite. The infinite set N is therefore contained entirely within the infinite set Z \ {0}. Then as Shunravi said above, you can divide the space between those numbers by an infinite amount to get decimals, so the whole of set Z is included within the set of real numbers R.

As close as you may get in your three dimensional travel, you will never get any closer in any of the other dimensions. Or, as an alternative explanation, Science can't explain Magic. And the stars are literally a visual representation of Magic.

While the sun is a fixed (yet also infinite) distance away from Nirn (and the same distance away as the stars), it does not have a fixed location like the stars do. The sun moves around the heavens, and the constellation it is nearest at sunrise determines the season.

I'm about reaching the point of giving up. I had believed myself to accept that there could be different ways a Universe could exist as opposed to the Reality we are used to, but this just boggles the mind. One of the most basic reasonings is that EVERYTHING has a beginning. Nothing can just simply be and always have been. Even the first Gods, or "Gods" should have a beginning themselves. But if they really just simply are, and everything about this Universe, from Oblivion to Nirn, to every living thing on Nirn are just creations, toys, playthings that live in one astronomically infinite cage built by beings that can't be understood. It makes the life I've given my characters in Elder Scrolls seem pretty pointless really.

There is most certainly a beginning. In the Beginning, the brothers Anu and Padomay, the primal forces of Stasis and Change, Light and Dark, Order and Chaos, came into the Void. Their interplay created Nir, the personification of the Aurbis (the Universe). Concurrently, Anu begat his soul and the soul of all things, Anuiel, that he might know himself, while Padomay begat Sithis, the personification of the Void.

Nir loved Anu, and Padomay retreated in bitterness. Padomay later returned, professed his love to Nir, and beat her when she told him that she loved only Anu. Nir later gave birth to the Twelve Worlds of Creation, but died from her injuries soon after. Padomay hated Creation, and shattered it; Anu then fought Padomay, and won, and attempted to save Creation by reforming it into one world - the Grey Maybe (which would become Mundus). As he was doing so, Padomay struck him through the chest with one last blow. Anu grappled with his brother and pulled them both outside of Time forever. Presently, Anuiel begat Auriel/Akatosh and Sithis begat Lorkhan/Shor, and the Dawn Era of Time began.

Gotta ask, not sure what Community Ambassador means but are you affiliated with Bethesda in some way? Have you had a hand in the Lore?

No, I have no affiliation with Bethesda and no hand in anything they do. To find out more about the Community Ambassadors, have a look here.

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

But if they really just simply are, and everything about this Universe, from Oblivion to Nirn, to every living thing on Nirn are just creations, toys, playthings that live in one astronomically infinite cage built by beings that can't be understood. It makes the life I've given my characters in Elder Scrolls seem pretty pointless really.

Careful; my understanding is that that's how you zero-sum (read: wipe yourself out of existence). You want to go in the other direction ('nothing matters, therefore, I can do whatever I want).

Correct! The purpose of the Psijic Endeavor is to transcend the mortal boundaries set in place by immortal rulers. But if you can only see your place in the world as some part of a divine construct, you realise that you are part of a divine totality, and your individuality dissolves - that is the Zero-Sum. To avoid this occurring, you need to be able to avoid Zero-Sum and retain the concept of individuality, to still say that you are one (1) in the universe, and still be able to say "I". This is the Secret of the Tower. Learning the Secret of the Tower is to achieve CHIM, and is the purpose of the Psijic Endeavor.