It isnt the game that dies, it's the player

Lynx7386

If your time is precious to you, go ahead and leave now, this is just a rant/musing inspired by beer and a shower. There's no real point to this post other than discussion.

I've played a lot of MMO's over the past decade and a half, starting with star wars galaxies back during its pre-cu days (unless you want to count priston tale as an mmo). One thing you see discussed every time a 'new' mmo is about to release is how it's going to "kill" another game, and yet this never actually happens - even starwars galaxies is still running, more than ten years later, albeit with a far smaller crowd. So, during my deep shower thought, this revelation came to me that it's not really one game killing another that causes us to view that other game as 'dead', but rather changes within the game itself that force away older players and bring in new stock.

With SWG, this was a clear change: I played for several years prior to the "combat upgrade" that irreversibly changed the game. For those not in the know, the "CU" was a massive game update that was released just before World of Warcraft launched. Prior to the CU, starwars galaxies was a sandbox MMO (one of the last) where there were really no quests or game-given objectives, but rather the entire game revolved around players pushing content. There were player-built cities, players manufactured all of the items and ships and structures in the game (there were practically no 'dropped' items or bosses to fight for them or dungeons to grind). The level of depth included in the game allowed players to literally create entire cities and govern them, as well as wage war against other player-run cities, spread across roughly two dozen planets that were absolutely massive canvases for player creativity.
The "Combat upgrade" was Sony Online Entertainment's big push to compete with the upcoming world of warcraft. SOE saw that warcraft was going to be successful, and tried to adopt a lot of that game's mechanics into SWG: They removed more than half of the professions and mechanics in the game, and put in place a system of themepark-style quests and level progression that completely altered SWG from a sandbox to a themepark MMO.

Those players that had been longstanding supporters of SWG saw this as a complete betrayal of the game's spirit by the developers, and there was a mass exodus of players. Of course, the new changes, however angering, brought in an entirely new crowd of gamers who continued to keep the game going for quite some time.

My next big MMO was, of course, world of warcraft. I started at launch (after beta testing) and played the game for just over 4 years, stopping shortly after wrath of the lich king was released. At first, life was good: I loved my druid, I spent 3 months leveling to the cap (far longer than anyone else, but I enjoyed every minute). With the first expansion, I saw numerous improvements to the gameplay mechanics as well as to my class. Then there was another expansion, and another.
Eventually blizzard began making larger, sweeping changes to the core gameplay of WoW that caused a similar issue to the combat upgrade SWG underwent. Most notable to me was the removal of hybrid/split builds where you put your skill points into more than one skill tree - now, blizzard only allows you to invest in a single skill tree, shoehorning each class into one of three themes or roles. That's about the time I left, and moved on to the next game.

Since warcraft, I've played DC Universe online, which to me was 'killed' by the combat mastery system. Then it was Star wars: the old republic, more or less 'killed' by the free-to-play change and an over-focus on cash shop developments at the cost of the game itself. There have been others I cant recall that all had similar fates.

Finally Elder scrolls online comes around, and it was the next 'big thing'. I followed from the old bethesda forums before we even had this website, and had the collector's edition ready to go on launch day/early access. The game was great for a good long while, until once again we had that dreaded "Free to play" "tamriel unlimited" change hit. I quit for a very long time, until console release came about, and returned briefly with the free pc to console transfer to play with friends I had made on console with other games who were interested. It was nice having a head start and being able to teach console newcomers about the game, but it didnt last long. I quit again, about 9 months ago last july.

Now, I recently returned a month or so ago, and I'm enjoying the game once more, but I'm starting to see reactions to changes in the patch notes that remind me of what so many games have done in the past to push away their players. Obviously it isnt intentional, and ZOS is doing what it believes is best to promote the development of the game. I've come to terms with these big changes, and personally I look forward to what the dark brotherhood and future DLC has to offer, but - and here's the point of this whole musing-slash-rant - so many people are upset and turned away by these changes that it creates cause for concern.

So to all of those who are getting overly upset about big changes that make their 'beloved game' different: Embrace the change. The game isnt going to die because of these changes, no other game has, and trust me there have been far worse situations involving this in the past. The only thing that really changes are your perspectives. Nostalgia is a hell of a thing, and is what causes both fond memories and bitter judgements of changing environments. I look back on SWG and WoW with a massive amount of nostalgia: I loved those games and what they were at the time, but in all honesty they are probably better off now, as am I for having moved on. I've tried to go back to those games, and it's the nostalgia that keeps me from enjoying them now. It is certainly a struggle, but try not to let fond memories interfere with your appreciation of the current moment and what the future might bring.

Shower/Beer rant over, muse on it

Van_0S

Well, to me ZOS is actually prolonging the game interest with those changes.

Think of it as a business perspective, like how can I make this game interesting? Idea! Change the active and passive abilities. So that it will be fresh for players.
Make cool set and also make use of their currency.

In short, these changes will make new builds and strategies for players.

Lynx7386

I agree. In my younger days, big changes would *** me off and cause me to seek out other 'better' games. It's only in age that I'm starting to appreciate the overall effect such changes have.

I look forward to the new builds we'll see with dark brotherhood and beyond. I dont agree with everything that zenimax is doing, but I'll find a way to cope.

GeorgeBlack

Well ima partake. Taking a sh1y3 inspired me to join.

I picked eso cause I saw good graphic imperial helmet dualswords and PvP.

I realized that the game isn't for me but I still have fun with it until I find something more suited for me.

I played an mmorpg which wasn't exactly sandbox, but the quests where not for xp/rewards, but fundamental character upgrades, and access to epic raidbosses (when I say epic I mean it).

There was no Lore, just units of players making their own Lore through PvP and PvE grind in a vast open world Map.

Gear was a punish to obtain/craft but it was so rewarding and good looking.

There was map control through Castle Sieges every 2 weeks, and a 1v1 arena championship which was declaring the best player, of each of the 24 classes, HERO for a month.
So basically it was all real. It was all player done. No involvement from npc and lore and factions.

Why I'm not there anymore? The graphics are not as good as with new games and the combat system, even though VERY intense at the time, lacks the realism of today.


Mmorpgs now are solo players focused, silly achievement chasing, Instances. Not my thing.

Egonieser

I enjoy change, I love new additions, but... I hate the dumbing down syndrome so many MMO's catch.
Make things different, change the meta, change classes or skills, but by no means I support or like when things are dumbed down to a 4-year old's level.
I loved PvE in ESO when it was in beta/shortly after launch, but as soon as those nerf hammers started pounding down on the content and mechanics I went like... "Meh, screw this steamroll they call PvE" Went to Cyrodiil and never really looked back.

I hate this catering to the lowest common IQ, even if it does make sense from a business perspective. If people are playing a oversimplified steamroll, how will they ever learn to play the game properly?
This is a plague in almost any MMO, it alienates the dedicated hardcore player base and starts the downwards spiral into the casual market. There is barely anything that gives me the sense of satisfaction in this game anymore, PvP being the only exception. (And no, fishing and other boring achievements is not a satisfactory or challenging part of the game, it's just a long-winded and boring grind - no brainpower required, just patience and sanity on the line).

Let the hate rain upon me for being a elitist eh?

FortheloveofKrist

Egonieser wrote: »

properly

LOL.

Balibe

Lynx7386 wrote: »

If your time is precious to you, go ahead and leave now, this is just a rant/musing inspired by beer and a shower. There's no real point to this post other than discussion.

I've played a lot of MMO's over the past decade and a half, starting with star wars galaxies back during its pre-cu days (unless you want to count priston tale as an mmo). One thing you see discussed every time a 'new' mmo is about to release is how it's going to "kill" another game, and yet this never actually happens - even starwars galaxies is still running, more than ten years later, albeit with a far smaller crowd. So, during my deep shower thought, this revelation came to me that it's not really one game killing another that causes us to view that other game as 'dead', but rather changes within the game itself that force away older players and bring in new stock.

With SWG, this was a clear change: I played for several years prior to the "combat upgrade" that irreversibly changed the game. For those not in the know, the "CU" was a massive game update that was released just before World of Warcraft launched. Prior to the CU, starwars galaxies was a sandbox MMO (one of the last) where there were really no quests or game-given objectives, but rather the entire game revolved around players pushing content. There were player-built cities, players manufactured all of the items and ships and structures in the game (there were practically no 'dropped' items or bosses to fight for them or dungeons to grind). The level of depth included in the game allowed players to literally create entire cities and govern them, as well as wage war against other player-run cities, spread across roughly two dozen planets that were absolutely massive canvases for player creativity.
The "Combat upgrade" was Sony Online Entertainment's big push to compete with the upcoming world of warcraft. SOE saw that warcraft was going to be successful, and tried to adopt a lot of that game's mechanics into SWG: They removed more than half of the professions and mechanics in the game, and put in place a system of themepark-style quests and level progression that completely altered SWG from a sandbox to a themepark MMO.

Those players that had been longstanding supporters of SWG saw this as a complete betrayal of the game's spirit by the developers, and there was a mass exodus of players. Of course, the new changes, however angering, brought in an entirely new crowd of gamers who continued to keep the game going for quite some time.

My next big MMO was, of course, world of warcraft. I started at launch (after beta testing) and played the game for just over 4 years, stopping shortly after wrath of the lich king was released. At first, life was good: I loved my druid, I spent 3 months leveling to the cap (far longer than anyone else, but I enjoyed every minute). With the first expansion, I saw numerous improvements to the gameplay mechanics as well as to my class. Then there was another expansion, and another.
Eventually blizzard began making larger, sweeping changes to the core gameplay of WoW that caused a similar issue to the combat upgrade SWG underwent. Most notable to me was the removal of hybrid/split builds where you put your skill points into more than one skill tree - now, blizzard only allows you to invest in a single skill tree, shoehorning each class into one of three themes or roles. That's about the time I left, and moved on to the next game.

Since warcraft, I've played DC Universe online, which to me was 'killed' by the combat mastery system. Then it was Star wars: the old republic, more or less 'killed' by the free-to-play change and an over-focus on cash shop developments at the cost of the game itself. There have been others I cant recall that all had similar fates.

Finally Elder scrolls online comes around, and it was the next 'big thing'. I followed from the old bethesda forums before we even had this website, and had the collector's edition ready to go on launch day/early access. The game was great for a good long while, until once again we had that dreaded "Free to play" "tamriel unlimited" change hit. I quit for a very long time, until console release came about, and returned briefly with the free pc to console transfer to play with friends I had made on console with other games who were interested. It was nice having a head start and being able to teach console newcomers about the game, but it didnt last long. I quit again, about 9 months ago last july.

Now, I recently returned a month or so ago, and I'm enjoying the game once more, but I'm starting to see reactions to changes in the patch notes that remind me of what so many games have done in the past to push away their players. Obviously it isnt intentional, and ZOS is doing what it believes is best to promote the development of the game. I've come to terms with these big changes, and personally I look forward to what the dark brotherhood and future DLC has to offer, but - and here's the point of this whole musing-slash-rant - so many people are upset and turned away by these changes that it creates cause for concern.

So to all of those who are getting overly upset about big changes that make their 'beloved game' different: Embrace the change. The game isnt going to die because of these changes, no other game has, and trust me there have been far worse situations involving this in the past. The only thing that really changes are your perspectives. Nostalgia is a hell of a thing, and is what causes both fond memories and bitter judgements of changing environments. I look back on SWG and WoW with a massive amount of nostalgia: I loved those games and what they were at the time, but in all honesty they are probably better off now, as am I for having moved on. I've tried to go back to those games, and it's the nostalgia that keeps me from enjoying them now. It is certainly a struggle, but try not to let fond memories interfere with your appreciation of the current moment and what the future might bring.

Shower/Beer rant over, muse on it

+1

NativeJoe

I don't suffer from alt-titus.

So when "shoe-horned" I typically leave a game. Same story with world of warcraft.
so as far as this patch goes... it's pretty painful. Stacked with class homogenization, a generalized class nerf, and all of my opponents getting much tougher, the poisons, and skill changes I feel like im being "shoe horned" into playing a cookie cutter standardized build. note* I've spent major amounts of money, time, and serious parts of my sanity (grinding vma) to come up with a sorc that can perform multiple roles, varied pvp capacity, and even gathered myself a small fan base. I love my class now, but me and every other sorc is being shoved in a direction. something I don't like. As you said...wow did this and it caused you and millions of others to leave. DB patch is pushing me, and I unsubbed after testing on pts, and am playing rather casually while exploring my other options.

thats where I am.
It's not only that they are nerfing my damage mitigation, damage, role in groups. it is them both wiping out the class identity (without redefining it) and taking away the "sand-box" feeling of character design by making so many niche builds absurdly under-powered and completely not viable in any setting besides farming nodes; all at the same time . x.x At this point the entire class seems broken and needs a complete revamp, and new identity. (something that Zos I feel doesn't seem up to the task of nor do they have the funds or time to do so.)

Esquire1980g_ESO

I too started with SWG, the only difference is I stuck with it after a few of rather long breaks after CU, NGE, and C6CD until about a month before the servers closed. As far as the emulators go, I ran a server myself for a year or so that added some of the changes from CU (no death via mind or sta bars), and added the NGE housing additions and some NGE deco items.

I've took a look at the patch notes (here) and as far as CU goes, it's not quite the same. CU took away the mind bar (think here about taking away the mag bar totally), along with quite a bit of other changes that were looked at, some bad, some good. Doesn't even think about comparing to the NGE. In order to do that you'd almost have to have all the existing profs going down to 2, all the skill points removed, and on log-in day, just stand there and use zone chat due to the fact that nothing else even thought about working. C6CD (The Chapter 6 Combat Downgrade) was a total re-design of the combat system, specials, DPS, tanking, etc etc etc that was basicly a "nerf everything" patch.

There's a few changes in the patch notes here that i wouldn't have done, some that are completely reactionary, and some I have no idea why they would change that. But as far as it comparing to the CU, not to me anyway.

However, I /agree with the OP that it's really not going to do much good screaming about upcoming changes. The best thing I believe that anyone can do is supply the math, supply the vids, and be as clear and concise as you can about what you don't like and what you do along with the reasoning why you believe that particular change will hurt gameplay, your or others.

Turelus

I used to cry about class balance and changes in MMO's until I eventually realised it's futile, the companies making them do what they want (as they should) with their games and you have to just roll with it.

Sure I will be critical of ZOS and suggest areas for improvement or where they messed up (in my opinion) but just play the game with every change and embrace it as OP said, you'll enjoy the game more when you stop worrying about the balance and just focus on doing your best for fun.

dalodir

Egonieser wrote: »

I enjoy change, I love new additions, but... I hate the dumbing down syndrome so many MMO's catch.
Make things different, change the meta, change classes or skills, but by no means I support or like when things are dumbed down to a 4-year old's level.
I loved PvE in ESO when it was in beta/shortly after launch, but as soon as those nerf hammers started pounding down on the content and mechanics I went like... "Meh, screw this steamroll they call PvE" Went to Cyrodiil and never really looked back.

I hate this catering to the lowest common IQ, even if it does make sense from a business perspective. If people are playing a oversimplified steamroll, how will they ever learn to play the game properly?
This is a plague in almost any MMO, it alienates the dedicated hardcore player base and starts the downwards spiral into the casual market. There is barely anything that gives me the sense of satisfaction in this game anymore, PvP being the only exception. (And no, fishing and other boring achievements is not a satisfactory or challenging part of the game, it's just a long-winded and boring grind - no brainpower required, just patience and sanity on the line).

Let the hate rain upon me for being a elitist eh?

Tried a veteran random dungeon last night. I am v12 temp healer and was expecting since it was considered veteran difficulty and i was with a pug that it would pose some challenge. It felt like there were less mobs, the only extra difficulty was the new end boss hit harder.

As a "casual" this was disappointing.

Being fairly new to the game I dont know the history. But certainly feels like something has undergone the same dumbing down you describe.

Although perhaps it was this dungeon itself. So i will try the others out..........

anitajoneb17_ESO

Egonieser wrote: »

Let the hate rain upon me for being a elitist eh?

No. I don't even think you're "elitist". You are expressing your taste for challenge. That's fine, and I understand your frustration that the challenging content that you like is getting narrower and narrower. You still have a couple of dungeons and 1 trial + 1 solo instance which are really hard.

I am kinda "inbetween". I "worked" and "learned" to pull some decent DPS, learn mechanics, use efficient builds, that kind of stuff. But when I'm invited to vMoL, I just think "WTF... I really like all these people, but do I really want to spend 3-4 hours there wiping, fearing to do something wrong and prejudice the whole group, learning to position, timing dodge-rolls by the millisecond, etc... ?"... and I decline the invite.

I like it easy. It's a matter of taste. You can't change that in people. I don't want to "learn" any more. I just want to enjoy the sceneries, enjoy my guildies and friends, try many non-optimal builds and sets... use non optimal skills with funny effects, that kind of things.

I wish there was a good MMO out there that would willingly address the market segment of people who enjoy challenge and difficulty. I wouldn't play it but you probably would and be happy. I'm not sure what the business model would be for that since it would obviously be a niche, but there are solo games in that "hardcore" niche, so why shouldn't there be an MMO or at least a coop/multiplayer game in that niche ? Idk.

But regarding the Elder Scrolls franchise, I don't think you can expect it to be on the challenging side of the market. Solo games already are on the easy side since Oblivion, Skyrim was RP-freedom focused and very easy, so I don't think you can expect ESO to cater to anything else but the "easy" playerbase. At best, they will keep a few instances really hard - for a while.