Could this solve the fake tank/healer issue?

Guppet

How about some system driven checks? Say after 5 mins the system checks how many taunts you have done or how much healing. If it's not enough (as set by the devs), a message comes up saying taunt more or heal more, if you don't improve in the next five mins, the system says sorry I'm removing you, you failed to do your job, then kicks you (they could even add an info screen when that happens, explaining what you could have done).

They could maybe have the auto kick require a vote of the 3 other players, if 2 confirm they are not fulfilling the role the kick goes through.

But since the kick vote can't be player instigated, it's not trollable.

They would need to make sure the game has FAQ for what taunting and healing are, so when people get kicked for things they have never headed of, they can look them up on the FAQ or google.

The checks would need to be smart, so if you go five minutes with no damage being put out, the timer does not start as it knows people are AFK.

The great thing is they could tune these checks by instance, so if a boss should not be taunted, the checks don't occur.

This could actually not only alleviate the problem of false roles, but it could actually help people improve.

Another thing that could work hand in hand with this is the ability to queue as "other", when selecting roles. You could queue as "other" along with any of the standard roles.

Then the group finder looks for a group comprised of the standard group of of, one tank, one healer 2 DPS, which are subject to the above checks and vote kick options.

Alternatively it forms a group of 4 "other", which are not subject to the above rules and vote kick options.

If you like to tank or heal or you just love the trinity system your covered, if you just want fast queues your covered, if you think the game doesn't need tanks or healers your covered.

People could just queue up as what they intend to do.

Elsterchen

I said it before ... I would prefer a 4th role to choose named: other.

No checks required, no weird "measuring of role conformation", no cartering to elitism, no shaming of so called "fakers" and above all: No half-truth / -lies when running a hybrid and beeing asked to join a group.

Guppet

Elsterchen wrote: »

I said it before ... I would prefer a 4th role to choose named: other.

No checks required, no weird "measuring of role conformation", and above all: No half-truth / -lies when running a hybrid and beeing asked to join a group.

What would other actually do and what do you think the queue time would be for other. Also which would it replace, tank healer or DPS?

Other kind of sounds like "just give me a faster queue, but I don't want any responsibility".

Unless the system can match 4 other, then it's an opt out of trinity option.

Kaspy

So the system will remove players that the rest of the group might be fine with despite them not filling their role entirely, forcing the group to requeue for replacement, possibly for a long time? How is this an improvement?

Brrrofski

The easier solution... Join a guild.

Why do you lot put yourselves through it?

To be fair, you can do most dungeons without a healer and tank anyway. Excluding one dungeon and one or two bosses, 4 dps is more effective.

Guppet

Brrrofski wrote: »

The easier solution... Join a guild.

Why do you lot put yourselves through it?

To be fair, you can do most dungeons without a healer and tank anyway. Excluding one dungeon and one or two bosses, 4 dps is more effective.

Have you tried a guild with voice coms only? People keep forgetting this is console too. Guilds work great with text chat, much less so when it's a load of voices.

Elsterchen

No, 4th option ... 3 defined roles: DD, healer, tank ... plus one undefined role: other.

Each group may decide to take up any number of "others" ... however they will know they might not get what they need, or more precisely: They know they will not get a fully specialized role. Maybe a hybrid DD/tank? Or a healer/DD?

I am sure many ppl are just angry bc the "label" doesn't meet up expectations - i.e. role isn't played. However atm there is no way of actually letting you guys know : hey, i am a capable healer, but not specialized to only heal. However I do manage xy% more dmg then the specialzed healer, too. What ya think? can we takkle the dungon/instance like that?

Currently, playing a hybrid, I have to lie. I have to choose a role I am not 100% playing. I can understand this isn't nice for anyone who likes to group up, but not only for those expecting me to play 100% of one role ... I do not have any choice to let you know I am a hybrid beforehand, too.

i am sure many of the discussions where names like "fakers", "l2p", "cheaters" etc are thrown around could be avoided if those that choose to do so had the oportunity to be honest.

Guppet

Kaspy wrote: »

So the system will remove players that the rest of the group might be fine with despite them not filling their role entirely, forcing the group to requeue for replacement, possibly for a long time? How is this an improvement?

If your healer isn't healing or your tank is not taunting, they are not filling the role they queued for. By a group saying it's ok to have a non taunting tank, they are saying I'm fine with you abusing the queue at my expense.

I'm getting the feeling that you disagree as you'd be the one kicked.

Jaywics

The real work around to running the random daily smoothly is to group up with 2 of your friends (one being a healer), que then carry the pug through regardless of his/her assigned role. Receive your crapy reward in the mail and enjoy our 100k+xp.

Your welcome in advance.

Guppet

Jaywics wrote: »

The real work around to running the random daily smoothly is to group up with 2 of your friends (one being a healer), que then carry the pug through regardless of his/her assigned role. Receive your crapy reward in the mail and enjoy our 100k+xp.

Your welcome in advance.

So your solution to pugging, is go in with a pre-made?

Why thank you.

LadyNalcarya

Thing is, dungeons dont require much healing, and many good healers just buff the team and do some dps. Also, wipes and deaths can be related to dds standing in stupid and ignoring mechanics, so I dont understand how the healing check is supposed to work.

Brrrofski

Guppet wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

The easier solution... Join a guild.

Why do you lot put yourselves through it?

To be fair, you can do most dungeons without a healer and tank anyway. Excluding one dungeon and one or two bosses, 4 dps is more effective.

Have you tried a guild with voice coms only? People keep forgetting this is console too. Guilds work great with text chat, much less so when it's a load of voices.

I play xbox, so yes, I've only tried voice only guilds. Also, the undaunted enclave is fine to pick up pledge groups.

Finding dungeons is absolutely fine without using group finder.

marhave

The best solution for pugs would be that when you go to the dungeon finder, you have to actively pick your role, every single time, and that a little info box comes up for you role - every single time. It will be a hassle for those of us who know our role etc. but I think it's the only way, especially for new players, or players who don't know about different roles.

And you know, informing people if they come in as the wrong role, because it could be they simple don't know... They knew vote-to-kick system will help a lot, I think.

Guppet

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Thing is, dungeons dont require much healing, and many good healers just buff the team and do some dps. Also, wipes and deaths can be related to dds standing in stupid and ignoring mechanics, so I dont understand how the healing check is supposed to work.

Well the stat checks are individual based on encounter. So it can be customised by the devs.

They could maybe have the auto kick require a vote of the 3 other players, if 2 confirm they are not fulfilling the role the kick goes through.

This just removed the ability to kick unless the system confirms the player has not taunted or healed at all.

sigsergv

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Thing is, dungeons dont require much healing, and many good healers just buff the team and do some dps. Also, wipes and deaths can be related to dds standing in stupid and ignoring mechanics, so I dont understand how the healing check is supposed to work.

A lot of DPS these days completely ignore mechanics: just stay on the spot and spam skills, ignore everything because healer will help. This approach works unfortunately, especially for normal dungeons.

Guppet

Op updated to add other players confirmation for kick to occur. So the kick can be over ruled.

Guppet

Brrrofski wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

The easier solution... Join a guild.

Why do you lot put yourselves through it?

To be fair, you can do most dungeons without a healer and tank anyway. Excluding one dungeon and one or two bosses, 4 dps is more effective.

Have you tried a guild with voice coms only? People keep forgetting this is console too. Guilds work great with text chat, much less so when it's a load of voices.

I play xbox, so yes, I've only tried voice only guilds. Also, the undaunted enclave is fine to pick up pledge groups.

Finding dungeons is absolutely fine without using group finder.

@Brrrofski so for pledges are you using prox chat, to get groups?

Also how do you find people on voice coms, generally nice?

May have dissbled mine the first time I heard people's music blaring in Glenumbra.

swirve

Guppet wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

The easier solution... Join a guild.

Why do you lot put yourselves through it?

To be fair, you can do most dungeons without a healer and tank anyway. Excluding one dungeon and one or two bosses, 4 dps is more effective.

Have you tried a guild with voice coms only? People keep forgetting this is console too. Guilds work great with text chat, much less so when it's a load of voices.

Dont know what guilds youre in but all the ones im in use voice chat and it works very well. I would not call a guild without a voice chat a guild and more a randoms collection for pickups.

susmitds

Elsterchen wrote: »

I said it before ... I would prefer a 4th role to choose named: other.

No checks required, no weird "measuring of role conformation", no cartering to elitism, no shaming of so called "fakers" and above all: No half-truth / -lies when running a hybrid and beeing asked to join a group.

Then the other queue would be totally filled.

LadyNalcarya

Guppet wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Thing is, dungeons dont require much healing, and many good healers just buff the team and do some dps. Also, wipes and deaths can be related to dds standing in stupid and ignoring mechanics, so I dont understand how the healing check is supposed to work.

Well the stat checks are individual based on encounter. So it can be customised by the devs.

They could maybe have the auto kick require a vote of the 3 other players, if 2 confirm they are not fulfilling the role the kick goes through.

This just removed the ability to kick unless the system confirms the player has not taunted or healed at all.

This still depends on the group, so any fixed numbers would be meaningless. For example, why would I need to heal X amount of hp if my dds and tank are not damaged? Except proccing spc and combat prayer ofc.

sigsergv wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Thing is, dungeons dont require much healing, and many good healers just buff the team and do some dps. Also, wipes and deaths can be related to dds standing in stupid and ignoring mechanics, so I dont understand how the healing check is supposed to work.

A lot of DPS these days completely ignore mechanics: just stay on the spot and spam skills, ignore everything because healer will help. This approach works unfortunately, especially for normal dungeons.

I know the burning strategies
I mean wipes caused by actual ignorance, like ignoring the portals during lord warden fight or not picking the pinion on planar inhibitor, or standing in aoe circle from Kena's add and not killing her atronachs... This kind of standing in stupid.
And I agree, with power creep and nerfs the fights are too easy... We burn the daedroth boss in vCoA in less than 10 seconds for example. XD

Guppet

Elsterchen wrote: »

No, 4th option ... 3 defined roles: DD, healer, tank ... plus one undefined role: other.

Each group may decide to take up any number of "others" ... however they will know they might not get what they need, or more precisely: They know they will not get a fully specialized role. Maybe a hybrid DD/tank? Or a healer/DD?

I am sure many ppl are just angry bc the "label" doesn't meet up expectations - i.e. role isn't played. However atm there is no way of actually letting you guys know : hey, i am a capable healer, but not specialized to only heal. However I do manage xy% more dmg then the specialzed healer, too. What ya think? can we takkle the dungon/instance like that?

Currently, playing a hybrid, I have to lie. I have to choose a role I am not 100% playing. I can understand this isn't nice for anyone who likes to group up, but not only for those expecting me to play 100% of one role ... I do not have any choice to let you know I am a hybrid beforehand, too.

i am sure many of the discussions where names like "fakers", "l2p", "cheaters" etc are thrown around could be avoided if those that choose to do so had the oportunity to be honest.

How are groups then made up? A tank, a heal, a dps and an other, that would take even longer than currently.

Also if your in that group, you'll know the other is actually slowing you down. Your dps will not be as good as with 2 dps.

If it replaces the tank or healer, then those roles are not covered.

It could only work if it paired 4 other together. The results from that could be amazing or utterly hideous. The non trinity, box of chocolates option, if you will.

Brrrofski

Guppet wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

The easier solution... Join a guild.

Why do you lot put yourselves through it?

To be fair, you can do most dungeons without a healer and tank anyway. Excluding one dungeon and one or two bosses, 4 dps is more effective.

Have you tried a guild with voice coms only? People keep forgetting this is console too. Guilds work great with text chat, much less so when it's a load of voices.

I play xbox, so yes, I've only tried voice only guilds. Also, the undaunted enclave is fine to pick up pledge groups.

Finding dungeons is absolutely fine without using group finder.

@Brrrofski so for pledges are you using prox chat, to get groups?

Also how do you find people on voice coms, generally nice?

May have dissbled mine the first time I heard people's music blaring in Glenumbra.

Well I looked on here for guilds way back. I joined a few, there's like 20 people in their guild chat channels. So I just ask there.

People are usually ok around the undaunted enclave too. Most the idiots and trolls that would have been around then have left to be fair. So asking there usually get's people.

But there's plenty of guilds around, check the guild section here.

Guppet

Op updated to cover "other" role, as part of the solution.

CherryCake

Guppet wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

The easier solution... Join a guild.

Why do you lot put yourselves through it?

To be fair, you can do most dungeons without a healer and tank anyway. Excluding one dungeon and one or two bosses, 4 dps is more effective.

Have you tried a guild with voice coms only? People keep forgetting this is console too. Guilds work great with text chat, much less so when it's a load of voices.

True... on console most of the time you have to send the group leader a message and he will tell you when you can join a group and its a looooottttt more complicated .

Flynch

What about an up-vote system that allows players to give a thumbs-up to others who are in certain roles. There would have to be a few caveats (ie, the menu only comes up from groups found in the group-finder, so no guild bias etc)

The more upvotes you get, the greater your priority in the queue. Sure, it'd be slow to get into a role to begin with, but as you completed dungeons you'd be finding groups much faster.

And yeah I know this is another RNG-type affair, many loopholes etc.

Just a thought though.

Kaspy

Guppet wrote: »

Kaspy wrote: »

So the system will remove players that the rest of the group might be fine with despite them not filling their role entirely, forcing the group to requeue for replacement, possibly for a long time? How is this an improvement?

If your healer isn't healing or your tank is not taunting, they are not filling the role they queued for. By a group saying it's ok to have a non taunting tank, they are saying I'm fine with you abusing the queue at my expense.

No, if a healer doesn't heal or the tank doesn't taunt and the group wipes repeatedly because of that then there is a good reason to kick someone. But if it makes the content go faster because of the extra DPS then who cares?
An arbitrary system that forces somehing on players despite what the players want is never good design.

Personally I agree with all idea's to make LFG tool more flexible (by enabling queing for 3DD + 1H or 4DD for example) rather than more strict on roles since this is pretty much what ZOS seems to aim for in the rest of the game by favouring DPS over tanking/healing.

I'm getting the feeling that you disagree as you'd be the one kicked.

Totally uncalled for ad hominem that does not relate to anything in my post.

ArchMikem

Guppet wrote: »

How about some system driven checks? Say after 5 mins the system checks how many taunts you have done or how much healing. If it's not enough (as set by the devs), a message comes up saying taunt more or heal more, if you don't improve in the next five mins, the system says sorry I'm removing you, you failed to do your job, then kicks you

No.

I don't know if there are actually people that join dungeon groups as a role they intentionally plan on not fulfilling, I certainly don't, but I don't want the game telling me what to do and how to do it or else I get kicked from my experience. I'm definitely not the best Healer but when it comes to Veteran dungeons that's all I can do since I'm an even worse DPS and I don't Tank for crap.

Guppet

ArchMikem wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

How about some system driven checks? Say after 5 mins the system checks how many taunts you have done or how much healing. If it's not enough (as set by the devs), a message comes up saying taunt more or heal more, if you don't improve in the next five mins, the system says sorry I'm removing you, you failed to do your job, then kicks you

No.

I don't know if there are actually people that join dungeon groups as a role they intentionally plan on not fulfilling, I certainly don't, but I don't want the game telling me what to do and how to do it or else I get kicked from my experience. I'm definitely not the best Healer but when it comes to Veteran dungeons that's all I can do since I'm an even worse DPS and I don't Tank for crap.

If your actually healing, kicking you would never be an option. It's only those that don't fulfil the role they queued as that get kicked and that does happen quite a lot.

Ever get a tank that doesn't seem to know about taunting, or goes down in two hits? It's because they are no tank.

GaldorP

The best solution would probably be profiles for Skill Points, Attribute Points, and Champion Points distribution. So you can freely switch between multiple builds on the same character (this removes the cause for people to sign up with a fake role). As for punishing those who signed up with the wrong role, there will be a vote to kick system in DB.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

Kick inactives, that would solve a lot.
Keep the rest inside.

Proximus-Prime

I've have bin Tanking and Healing same time in normals with 3 dps and hold all aggro, i dont have probs