RNG is like an Ogre...
Oreyn_Bearclaw
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And Ogres are like Onions. They have too many darned layers...
Seriously, I know that there are a million threads on this topic, but I am about to my breaking point with the RNG in this game. I have already ranted on like 10 other threads today, but something needs to change. I think the fundamental problem is with traits. Right now, we are able to go out and craft gear in about 10 minutes that is like 95% as good as the BIS stuff. I get that I suppose, it lets people make a baseline level of stat boosting gear to be competitive, with very little hassle.
The next level is to go out and acquire monster/dropped sets or unique weapons (VMA) to supplement or replace your crafted gear. This is a great idea in theory. Okay average player, you can get 95% of the way there pretty easily, but if you want that last 5%, you are going to have to work for it. So, they release these dropped sets that are only marginally better than the crafted. Again, probably a good thing. If they were wildly better, it would be an even bigger source of frustration. For more info on that, do a search on VMA threads, which is the one place that the difference is more than marginal. VMA weapons are BIS, period end of story.
The obvious current example for armor is Scathing Mage vs. Julianos. These sets are essentially identical except that one is a flat bonus to damage (Julianos) and one is has proc chance for a bigger bonus to magic (Scathing). The question about which is better can be boiled down to the % uptime you have on your proc, but this assumes you have all Divines gear with both, because as a baseline, there is no difficulty with crafting in divines. You just select divines when crafting and spend 1 mat (sapphire) that has literally no value. What if you want Scathing in divines? Well, it's a total nightmare. You grind endlessly with many layers of RNG to navigate.
1. You manage to kill a boss in ICP, good for you. You know have a low chance to get a set piece.
2. In ICP there are like 5 sets you might get, so the next roll of the dice is to which sets.
3. You then get a roll of the dice as to which piece of the set. For almost everything, head and shoulders are useless, especially on DPS gear.
4. You then get to roll for a trait, and this is the kick in the pants. You grind for days to finally get your scathing shoes, and bam, well-fitted.
Here is the thing, Julianos and Scathing are so close that scathing is only better if you essentially get all Divines. It is further problematic because scathing is all light armor, so it means you have very little flexibility with your monster set weights and traits (they need to be one each of medium and heavy, both in divines). If crafting, you can make your Julianos in a perfect trait and whatever weight you need to make your undaunted bonus work with a monster set. The only drop you really need to care about is the trait on the shoulders and helm. As long as the weights are either light armor or simply not the same, you can make it work.
This all flies out the window when you want to run a dungeon set. You essentially need to get your hands on 7 perfect drops, or it simply wont be better than the crafted stuff everyone and their mother has access to. IMO, that is a poor state of affairs for this game. Min/maxing is based on nothing more than a role of terribly loaded dice. There is no skill involved. It simply takes extraordinary luck, or the time and patience of saint. I guess I have neither.
There have been so many proposals put out there to "fix" the loot system, and they all have their pros and cons.
1. Token system seems to be the standard go to. I dont hate this idea, but it also feels artificial somehow. End of the day, it would certainly be better than the status quo. Heck, someone from ZOS showing up at your front door to kick you in the crotch every time you run a dungeon is better than the status quo.
2. Eliminate BOP. Again, better than nothing, but not my favorite plan. I like the idea of gear being gated behind difficult content. BOP also is good for business because it forces people to buy DLC, so I sort of get it. I think the answer here for the most part is a mixture of Bind on Group for most dungeons, and maybe an increase in BOE from other content like dailys etc. It would be nice to actually be able to make money again from, you know, playing the game.
3. Make a vendor. Well, ZOS tried this, but for the min/maxer, it is useless. I wont buy a Monster piece that is not in divines for any DPS gear, which is all I need at this point. The other gear they sell is wildly cheaper in any guild trader. In other words, decent plan, terrible execution. Why all PVP gear is BOE, and virtually all PVE gear is BOP I will never quite understand.
4. GIVE US THE ABILITY TO CHANGE TRAITS FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY!!! Clearly, this is my favorite plan. I do not think it should be trivial, but I think it should be possible. There are many ways to accomplish this.
-The obvious way is to give crafters the ability to do it. You could have an item called "stone of mutation" or something far more clever that allows you to unlock an item and change the strait. It could have a small but reasonable chance to drop from dungeon bosses, gold keys, pvp rewards, chests, or maybe even deconstruction of BOP set pieces. This would vastly open up more content, especially if you made the stone drop from several different places.
-You could also add it to the PVP vendor. Allow characters to change one trait a week for 200k gold or AP.
-Heck, you could add it to the crown store. Arguably, it's convenience. If you have an item in a terrible trait, you already did the content. I find running ICP for the umpteenth time wildly inconvenient, and I would pay good money to skip it.
Ultimately, I think trait changing is the answer. An enchanter can re-enchant, a clothier should be able to change the trait on a robe. It fits with lore, it keeps items gated, and it would diminish the most frustrating layer in the outrageous system that we call RNG. It also would give people the ability to experiment and try different trait bonuses for different content. ZOS is about to re-balance virtually every trait in the game. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to experiment without having to worry about how you are going to afford your next 40 Dreugh Wax?
TLDR, I know...
Seriously, I know that there are a million threads on this topic, but I am about to my breaking point with the RNG in this game. I have already ranted on like 10 other threads today, but something needs to change. I think the fundamental problem is with traits. Right now, we are able to go out and craft gear in about 10 minutes that is like 95% as good as the BIS stuff. I get that I suppose, it lets people make a baseline level of stat boosting gear to be competitive, with very little hassle.
The next level is to go out and acquire monster/dropped sets or unique weapons (VMA) to supplement or replace your crafted gear. This is a great idea in theory. Okay average player, you can get 95% of the way there pretty easily, but if you want that last 5%, you are going to have to work for it. So, they release these dropped sets that are only marginally better than the crafted. Again, probably a good thing. If they were wildly better, it would be an even bigger source of frustration. For more info on that, do a search on VMA threads, which is the one place that the difference is more than marginal. VMA weapons are BIS, period end of story.
The obvious current example for armor is Scathing Mage vs. Julianos. These sets are essentially identical except that one is a flat bonus to damage (Julianos) and one is has proc chance for a bigger bonus to magic (Scathing). The question about which is better can be boiled down to the % uptime you have on your proc, but this assumes you have all Divines gear with both, because as a baseline, there is no difficulty with crafting in divines. You just select divines when crafting and spend 1 mat (sapphire) that has literally no value. What if you want Scathing in divines? Well, it's a total nightmare. You grind endlessly with many layers of RNG to navigate.
1. You manage to kill a boss in ICP, good for you. You know have a low chance to get a set piece.
2. In ICP there are like 5 sets you might get, so the next roll of the dice is to which sets.
3. You then get a roll of the dice as to which piece of the set. For almost everything, head and shoulders are useless, especially on DPS gear.
4. You then get to roll for a trait, and this is the kick in the pants. You grind for days to finally get your scathing shoes, and bam, well-fitted.
Here is the thing, Julianos and Scathing are so close that scathing is only better if you essentially get all Divines. It is further problematic because scathing is all light armor, so it means you have very little flexibility with your monster set weights and traits (they need to be one each of medium and heavy, both in divines). If crafting, you can make your Julianos in a perfect trait and whatever weight you need to make your undaunted bonus work with a monster set. The only drop you really need to care about is the trait on the shoulders and helm. As long as the weights are either light armor or simply not the same, you can make it work.
This all flies out the window when you want to run a dungeon set. You essentially need to get your hands on 7 perfect drops, or it simply wont be better than the crafted stuff everyone and their mother has access to. IMO, that is a poor state of affairs for this game. Min/maxing is based on nothing more than a role of terribly loaded dice. There is no skill involved. It simply takes extraordinary luck, or the time and patience of saint. I guess I have neither.
There have been so many proposals put out there to "fix" the loot system, and they all have their pros and cons.
1. Token system seems to be the standard go to. I dont hate this idea, but it also feels artificial somehow. End of the day, it would certainly be better than the status quo. Heck, someone from ZOS showing up at your front door to kick you in the crotch every time you run a dungeon is better than the status quo.
2. Eliminate BOP. Again, better than nothing, but not my favorite plan. I like the idea of gear being gated behind difficult content. BOP also is good for business because it forces people to buy DLC, so I sort of get it. I think the answer here for the most part is a mixture of Bind on Group for most dungeons, and maybe an increase in BOE from other content like dailys etc. It would be nice to actually be able to make money again from, you know, playing the game.
3. Make a vendor. Well, ZOS tried this, but for the min/maxer, it is useless. I wont buy a Monster piece that is not in divines for any DPS gear, which is all I need at this point. The other gear they sell is wildly cheaper in any guild trader. In other words, decent plan, terrible execution. Why all PVP gear is BOE, and virtually all PVE gear is BOP I will never quite understand.
4. GIVE US THE ABILITY TO CHANGE TRAITS FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY!!! Clearly, this is my favorite plan. I do not think it should be trivial, but I think it should be possible. There are many ways to accomplish this.
-The obvious way is to give crafters the ability to do it. You could have an item called "stone of mutation" or something far more clever that allows you to unlock an item and change the strait. It could have a small but reasonable chance to drop from dungeon bosses, gold keys, pvp rewards, chests, or maybe even deconstruction of BOP set pieces. This would vastly open up more content, especially if you made the stone drop from several different places.
-You could also add it to the PVP vendor. Allow characters to change one trait a week for 200k gold or AP.
-Heck, you could add it to the crown store. Arguably, it's convenience. If you have an item in a terrible trait, you already did the content. I find running ICP for the umpteenth time wildly inconvenient, and I would pay good money to skip it.
Ultimately, I think trait changing is the answer. An enchanter can re-enchant, a clothier should be able to change the trait on a robe. It fits with lore, it keeps items gated, and it would diminish the most frustrating layer in the outrageous system that we call RNG. It also would give people the ability to experiment and try different trait bonuses for different content. ZOS is about to re-balance virtually every trait in the game. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to experiment without having to worry about how you are going to afford your next 40 Dreugh Wax?
TLDR, I know...
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Tryxus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I found my first ever Valkyn Skoria helmet today, and it caused me to cry tears of both happiness and sadness
Even when I finally beat the RNG, it still wins
"Stand strong, stay true and shelter all."
Tryxus - Guardian of the Green - Warden - PC/EU1 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I found my first ever Valkyn Skoria helmet today, and it caused me to cry tears of both happiness and sadness
Even when I finally beat the RNG, it still wins
Not sure whats worse, when you have 1 bad helm or a dozen of them? Haha. Also, all the fire breathing DKs out there obviosuly need help with sprinting cost on a PVE DPS set. SMH. Sorry buddy, it doesnt get better.0 -
daemonios✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think BoE drops are the answer, more than re-traiting. That way you'll still have to run dungeons to farm different traits if you're so inclined (and remember, the grind is deliberate, they want us to keep spending time in the game), and the ability to sell gear will reflect positively on the game's economy.1 -
dtm_samuraib16_ESO✭✭✭✭What is the point of this bound thing anyways?
Silly.Earthdawn Game Master Role Play Quotes by me:
"If it looks like a bear, if it feels like a bear, smells and tastes like a bear, then be VERY aware, it could be something ENTIRELY different..."
"Be careful what you wish for, you might get plenty of it..."0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think BoE drops are the answer, more than re-traiting. That way you'll still have to run dungeons to farm different traits if you're so inclined (and remember, the grind is deliberate, they want us to keep spending time in the game), and the ability to sell gear will reflect positively on the game's economy.
The problem with BOE drops across the board is that you really dont need to run anything for gear. You can simply farm/sell mats and purchase BIS stuff. But I do agree that the economy in this game was generally better when there were more BOE sets. I used to make money by running trials and selling what I didnt need. Now you make nothing from running content. I still think things like VMA weapons and WGT/ICP sets should be content gated, which I guess is where we disagree.
As for re-running, I would never suggest that you should run a dungeon once or twice and get everything you want. That being said, I also dont think someone should have to run the same content 100+ times either. If they just introduced a trait change mechanic, you would still need to re-run a bunch of times to get what you want. It would just be a little less harsh this way.dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »What is the point of this bound thing anyways?
Silly.
It gates items behind DLC. In other words, $$$.Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on May 9, 2016 8:28PM1 -
Fignutz821✭✭✭been preaching trait change since my first and second kena and warden helmets were both well-fitted...CR 561+
LV 50 Nord Dk tank/stam DPS (stormproof)
LV 50 High Elf Sorc DPS (flawless)
LV 50 Argonian Templar Helaer (yes its a lizard, SMH)
LV 50 Breton NB magicka DPS (stormproof)
LV 50 Imperial Stamplar (Jabicus)
LV 50 khajit Stamblade (Panthrro from the thunder cats)
LV 50 Redguard stamsorc (stormproof/AD spy)
LV 50 Dark Elf Magic DK (stormproof/ DC spy)
All characters are NA EP xbox1 (I bleed red)0 -
Elder_III✭✭✭✭I found my first ever Valkyn Skoria helmet today, and it caused me to cry tears of both happiness and sadness
Even when I finally beat the RNG, it still wins
At least Well Fitted is getting a buff/change with the next DLC. It will have it's uses (PvP especially) at the end of this month.
Semi retired from the trading aspects of the game.0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
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At least Well Fitted is getting a buff/change with the next DLC. It will have it's uses (PvP especially) at the end of this month.
Yeah, but probably not on a Skoria build. I have no doubt you will see people trying out 7/7 well-fitted and dodge rolling for days, but those guys aren't running Skoria or Scathing.
Truth be told, traits really only are deal breakers for leaderboard chasing DPS. There are lots of ways to accomplish the same thing while healing, tanking, or pvping. With DPS, traits determine whether a set is viable when compared to a cheap crafted option. That is something that I am not sure ZOS understands.0 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well written. Nice post. A good summary and appraisal of the whole RNG fiasco.Anything that can be exploited will be exploited1 -
MikeB✭✭✭✭✭We need a re-trait system. I made a post months ago about this and how to do it that got ignored by ZOS.1
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Flameheart✭✭✭✭✭I voted for the crafting solution concerning trait changes more than a year ago. It would certainly defuse the issue of the most horrible RNG system I ever experienced in MMOs (sorry Zenimax, but good old Everquest already had a better loot system...) and it would enhance crafting as a bonus.
Edited by Flameheart on May 10, 2016 11:16AMSometimes the prey turns and nips us... it's a small thing.
So let the snow flakes and unicorns dance alone until they melt or vanish from existence, we will finish up with those smart enough to stay in the glowing circle of love.
Selissi - CP 1k+ Redguard Stamina Nightblade (Ebonheart Pact)
Silmerel - CP 1k+ Breton Magicka Templar (Ebonheart Pact)
Sunja - CP 1k+ Dunmer Magicka Nightblade (Ebonheart Pact)
Suldreni - CP 1k+ Dunmer Magicka Dragonknight (Ebonheart Pact)
Sulhelka - CP 1k+ Altmer Magicka Sorcerer (Ebonheart Pact)
Sylundine - CP 1k+ Breton Magicka Warden (Ebonheart Pact)1 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lonesniper wrote: »This might actually help you.
Ha! I used to /kowtow before every COA, ICP, and WGT chest I would open. Not too sure it worked...Flameheart wrote: »I voted for the crafting solution concerning trait changes more than a year ago. It would certainly defuse the issue of the most horrible RNG system I ever experienced in MMOs (sorry Zenimax, but good old Everquest already had a better loot system...) and it would enhance crafting as a bonus.
I think the key word is defuse. It wouldnt totally fix the problem (still dont have imperium guantlets), but my guess is that it would eliminate 90% of the hostility towards the current system. Edited by Oreyn_Bearclaw on May 10, 2016 7:16PM0 -
Fallen_Ray✭✭✭✭✭It's not Ogre...It's never Ogre..."Dear brother, I do not spread rumors, I create them"- Lucien Lachance0
