How to fix PvP

Horker

Presented by Zergbad

https://youtu.be/RHzpUKAZpzw

treborrealb14_ESO

alexandrutenhove wrote: »

Presented by Zergbad

https://youtu.be/RHzpUKAZpzw

LOL yes MMOs are solo games yep

Runs

Is this some kind of joke?

I think Poe's Law is coming into play on this one.

Haquor

'That would fix the game'

Hmm.

I agree reduce damage and increase damage taken would interesting. Not to the extremes you mention tho.

Trolling people and having them kicked from cyrodil by following them around mightbe broken. Bad idea.

Another problem is what people actually enjoy ingame. Maybe they only like to zerg? Maybe they wont want to l2p as you see it and play the game how you want it to be. Are there more zerg ballers than non? What if pvp lost 50% of its population due to these changes?

Dont get me wrong... all i do is solo/small scale. But punishing people for not playing how you want to play may hurt the game more than fix it.

I hope not tho. The concept is interesting.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Zerging and large group battles were never really a problem before AOE caps, gap closer guarantees, static ultimate gain, and other changes that largely buffed groups over solo players and small organized groups.

This game was supposed to be about large battles. 100's on screen at the same time. That is what the marketing department told people. AvA is large scale warfare. Large scale warfare used to be fun. Zerging wasn't that bad when a well organized smaller group could wipe a disorganized larger one.

It's not Zergs that killed this game. Changes to PvP, changes to the client/server load, lighting patch etc, and all of the balance changes that garanteed any larger group could catch and zerg down individual players with idiot proof "hold you in place until it hits" gap closers and other poor decisions. Not to mention the removal of softcaps and the terrible champion system that created this bust meta. That killed PvP.

We don't need more server calculations adjusting peoples damage and resistances with continual proximity calculations that all have to go to the server and back. Do you want more lag? Because that is how we get more lag.

We just need Patch 1.5 back.

Rohamad_Ali

Reminds me of other deep thoughts

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CjfSGPJo-cg

Ajax_22

Videos like this are why no one takes people actually trying to improve PvP seriously. We don't need to turn zerglings into ants under a magnifying glass because they are in a zerg. All we need is the removal of in game mechanics that give zergs a statistical advantage for all sitting on the same pixels, and for Dynamic Ult to be brought back in toned down form. Zergbad is entertaining, but videos like this are counter productive to fixing group imbalance in Cyrodiil.

Talyena

I feel dumber for having watched that video.

Wollust

Wow that guy is definitely playing the wrong game.

dem0n1k

LOL! How would anyone ever take a keep or resource or scroll? You gonna solo a lvl5 keep & all it's bots with 3-4 enemy players spaced out so that they don't incur any penalty? Sorry but I like the way the game is now.

The last few days of PVP, I have seen some really big zergs with just regular lag (coz I am in AU so ping is always 250+) .. it's been really nice! (PC NA : BWB campagn)

Shadowfx1970

Lol that video was about as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit

daswahnsinn

What I think would fix PVP, outside of fixing the lag, is to make what my tool bar reads what hits. Give us the damage we can do, that'll break up zerg a little and make people reroll some healers, which you don't see often enough in PVP.

mtwiggz

Talyena wrote: »

I feel dumber for having watched that video.

This.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

An expensive idea would be to have a PvE and a PvP server.
This way, PvP'ers would not make load for PvE'ers, and vica versa.

Horker

Haquor wrote: »

'That would fix the game'

Hmm.

I agree reduce damage and increase damage taken would interesting. Not to the extremes you mention tho.

Trolling people and having them kicked from cyrodil by following them around mightbe broken. Bad idea.

Another problem is what people actually enjoy ingame. Maybe they only like to zerg? Maybe they wont want to l2p as you see it and play the game how you want it to be. Are there more zerg ballers than non? What if pvp lost 50% of its population due to these changes?

Dont get me wrong... all i do is solo/small scale. But punishing people for not playing how you want to play may hurt the game more than fix it.

I hope not tho. The concept is interesting.

i agree with your opinions, but atleast punish zergs smallscaling with 24 against 1 player...because thats what happening right now, welcome to EU Azura's star, where emperror capture is done withouth killing any players.

Horker

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

An expensive idea would be to have a PvE and a PvP server.
This way, PvP'ers would not make load for PvE'ers, and vica versa.

or even better, in the PvE server u can atually group with DC/AD/EP alliances and do some pve stuff with friends from other alliances, and that all the keeps are like NPC/Imperial owned for example.

have my upvote, good idea

Horker

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Zerging and large group battles were never really a problem before AOE caps, gap closer guarantees, static ultimate gain, and other changes that largely buffed groups over solo players and small organized groups.

This game was supposed to be about large battles. 100's on screen at the same time. That is what the marketing department told people. AvA is large scale warfare. Large scale warfare used to be fun. Zerging wasn't that bad when a well organized smaller group could wipe a disorganized larger one.

It's not Zergs that killed this game. Changes to PvP, changes to the client/server load, lighting patch etc, and all of the balance changes that garanteed any larger group could catch and zerg down individual players with idiot proof "hold you in place until it hits" gap closers and other poor decisions. Not to mention the removal of softcaps and the terrible champion system that created this bust meta. That killed PvP.

We don't need more server calculations adjusting peoples damage and resistances with continual proximity calculations that all have to go to the server and back. Do you want more lag? Because that is how we get more lag.

We just need Patch 1.5 back.

ur damn right, i cry everytiem, sadly it wont happen, ZoS is laughing and having party with AoE-Caps on their head while we struggle into their c*ncerous servers.

kinggingernator

dem0n1k wrote: »

LOL! How would anyone ever take a keep or resource or scroll? You gonna solo a lvl5 keep & all it's bots with 3-4 enemy players spaced out so that they don't incur any penalty? Sorry but I like the way the game is now.

The last few days of PVP, I have seen some really big zergs with just regular lag (coz I am in AU so ping is always 250+) .. it's been really nice! (PC NA : BWB campagn)

Um... obviously I'm not suggesting you do that, but it's more than possible to take keeps solo with no siege. Only thing holding you back is the slow siege...

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

alexandrutenhove wrote: »

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

An expensive idea would be to have a PvE and a PvP server.
This way, PvP'ers would not make load for PvE'ers, and vica versa.

or even better, in the PvE server u can atually group with DC/AD/EP alliances and do some pve stuff with friends from other alliances, and that all the keeps are like NPC/Imperial owned for example.

have my upvote, good idea

Well, why not?
I mean, it's not because the sodding idiots (kings, emperors, tax collectors) want to wage war, that we ALL have to do their bidding.
Hell, my Vamp is an AD, he feeds equally on other AD's as on other sided.
Food is food.
Period.

Julianos

LOL such a BS idea classic rogue/assassin mind ganking/ambushing people when they are not aware and alone convenient.
People should be able to play as they want you cant punish them for that, this game advertised for its huge batttles you cant change the main concept because i paid for that. I want huge army wars like before that was fun but they failed. They should fix it and also they should add small scale pvp for those who like arena or small scale battle grounds i do like both. You cant fix the damn game by altering people's way to play thats pathetic. Like their stupid vicious death set.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO

Axorn wrote: »

LOL such a BS idea classic rogue/assassin mind ganking/ambushing people when they are not aware and alone convenient.
People should be able to play as they want you cant punish them for that, this game advertised for its huge batttles you cant change the main concept because i paid for that. I want huge army wars like before that was fun but they failed. They should fix it and also they should add small scale pvp for those who like arena or small scale battle grounds i do like both. You cant fix the damn game by altering people's way to play thats pathetic. Like their stupid vicious death set.

Very nice of you to say all this, and want fixes like 5 years ago.

Well, since it's all that simple: why not give the solution?

Julianos

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Axorn wrote: »

LOL such a BS idea classic rogue/assassin mind ganking/ambushing people when they are not aware and alone convenient.
People should be able to play as they want you cant punish them for that, this game advertised for its huge batttles you cant change the main concept because i paid for that. I want huge army wars like before that was fun but they failed. They should fix it and also they should add small scale pvp for those who like arena or small scale battle grounds i do like both. You cant fix the damn game by altering people's way to play thats pathetic. Like their stupid vicious death set.

Very nice of you to say all this, and want fixes like 5 years ago.

Well, since it's all that simple: why not give the solution?

i dont know the solution im not a software engineer but i know this cyrodiil was ok before not perfect but way better than current state my advice is reverse the game back to before 1,6. They literally ruined with their patches.

Ser Lobo

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Zerging and large group battles were never really a problem before AOE caps, gap closer guarantees, static ultimate gain, and other changes that largely buffed groups over solo players and small organized groups.

This game was supposed to be about large battles. 100's on screen at the same time. That is what the marketing department told people. AvA is large scale warfare. Large scale warfare used to be fun. Zerging wasn't that bad when a well organized smaller group could wipe a disorganized larger one.

It's not Zergs that killed this game. Changes to PvP, changes to the client/server load, lighting patch etc, and all of the balance changes that garanteed any larger group could catch and zerg down individual players with idiot proof "hold you in place until it hits" gap closers and other poor decisions. Not to mention the removal of softcaps and the terrible champion system that created this bust meta. That killed PvP.

We don't need more server calculations adjusting peoples damage and resistances with continual proximity calculations that all have to go to the server and back. Do you want more lag? Because that is how we get more lag.

We just need Patch 1.5 back.

I kinda have to disagree with you. Zerging has been a problem since beta (PC), and I can personally account to that. It and large groups rolling over smaller groups, and Cyrodiil being an area and mechanic that fully supported stacking and creating zerg balls very similar to GW2, was a very common complaint.

The truth is, NO game has been able to put '100's of people on the screen' effectively. It's not just a complaint in this game, it's a complaint in every large scale game I've played. Hell, even Age of Empires can start to lag on you if you've got too much going on in one screen.

The idea behind the game? You're spot on. But I personally don't feel that ANY developer, in ANY genre (much less games as complex as MMO's) can live up to that claim with the state of current hardware and internet infrastructure.

It's not changes that killed this game's PvP. It's an unrealistic goal and promises that couldn't be kept. It was a developer staff not learning from the problems they faced in Dark Age of Camelot, and repeating many of the same mistakes here.

ESO's PvP will shine when they reduce the player count (like every other game has done). I don't feel 4v4 arena's are a smart option due to major balance concerns, but 20v20v20's would work great and really make this game worthwhile.

Muizer

The whole idea of trying to disrupt zergs/large groups by making it possible for small groups or individuals to do serious damage against them in a straight fight is just utterly stupid (and that doesn't just apply to the vid, but also to prox det / VD and other over-powered AoE's). You're never going to get a well balanced game that way.

A player density based penalty (think up to 50%) to movement speed however would make quite a bit of sense, to compensate for the lack of collision and friendly fire.

Roymachine

daswahnsinn wrote: »

What I think would fix PVP, outside of fixing the lag, is to make what my tool bar reads what hits. Give us the damage we can do, that'll break up zerg a little and make people reroll some healers, which you don't see often enough in PVP.

Healers won't help when people are literally getting 1-2 shot constantly.

Horker

Axorn wrote: »

I want huge army wars like before that was fun

Smallscaling 1-5 ppl down with 24+ ballgroups, yes thats huge army wars what we payed for.

Rune_Relic

Muizer wrote: »

The whole idea of trying to disrupt zergs/large groups by making it possible for small groups or individuals to do serious damage against them in a straight fight is just utterly stupid (and that doesn't just apply to the vid, but also to prox det / VD and other over-powered AoE's). You're never going to get a well balanced game that way.

A player density based penalty (think up to 50%) to movement speed however would make quite a bit of sense, to compensate for the lack of collision and friendly fire.

Had a similar idea.
Proximity based Stamina/Magicka degen.
Closer you are to someone the faster your resoucre drain.

I think of it as voluntary CD rather than compulsory CD.
Sure you can all stand in the same spot.
But you'll be a sitting duck with no resource in a couple of ticks.

Doesnt mean you cant ball up.
But you'll have to be bloody stupid or need a very very good reason to do it.

Plus its less liable to griefing then hard CD where you can be physically blocked.

Cryptical

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

The whole idea of trying to disrupt zergs/large groups by making it possible for small groups or individuals to do serious damage against them in a straight fight is just utterly stupid (and that doesn't just apply to the vid, but also to prox det / VD and other over-powered AoE's). You're never going to get a well balanced game that way.

A player density based penalty (think up to 50%) to movement speed however would make quite a bit of sense, to compensate for the lack of collision and friendly fire.

Had a similar idea.
Proximity based Stamina/Magicka degen.
Closer you are to someone the faster your resoucre drain.

I think of it as voluntary CD rather than compulsory CD.
Sure you can all stand in the same spot.
But you'll be a sitting duck with no resource in a couple of ticks.

Doesnt mean you cant ball up.
But you'll have to be bloody stupid or need a very very good reason to do it.

Plus its less liable to griefing then hard CD where you can be physically blocked.

No, the movement speed penalty is better. You do not want your resources being drained just because there are a lot of you on the wall defending the keep, while the attackers get to spread out across the ground.

That's why the resource drain would be a bad thing to implement.

Ser Lobo

Cryptical wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

The whole idea of trying to disrupt zergs/large groups by making it possible for small groups or individuals to do serious damage against them in a straight fight is just utterly stupid (and that doesn't just apply to the vid, but also to prox det / VD and other over-powered AoE's). You're never going to get a well balanced game that way.

A player density based penalty (think up to 50%) to movement speed however would make quite a bit of sense, to compensate for the lack of collision and friendly fire.

Had a similar idea.
Proximity based Stamina/Magicka degen.
Closer you are to someone the faster your resoucre drain.

I think of it as voluntary CD rather than compulsory CD.
Sure you can all stand in the same spot.
But you'll be a sitting duck with no resource in a couple of ticks.

Doesnt mean you cant ball up.
But you'll have to be bloody stupid or need a very very good reason to do it.

Plus its less liable to griefing then hard CD where you can be physically blocked.

No, the movement speed penalty is better. You do not want your resources being drained just because there are a lot of you on the wall defending the keep, while the attackers get to spread out across the ground.

That's why the resource drain would be a bad thing to implement.

For Cyrodiil, this is outstanding! And falls in a rational way, as moving large groups of people safely is a logistical nightmare!

It has to be significant. Noticable. This doesn't make the small group stronger or kill better, but it does make it less viable to form in the largest group possible to rush from place to place.

I like this idea a lot.

Rune_Relic

Cryptical wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Muizer wrote: »

The whole idea of trying to disrupt zergs/large groups by making it possible for small groups or individuals to do serious damage against them in a straight fight is just utterly stupid (and that doesn't just apply to the vid, but also to prox det / VD and other over-powered AoE's). You're never going to get a well balanced game that way.

A player density based penalty (think up to 50%) to movement speed however would make quite a bit of sense, to compensate for the lack of collision and friendly fire.

Had a similar idea.
Proximity based Stamina/Magicka degen.
Closer you are to someone the faster your resoucre drain.

I think of it as voluntary CD rather than compulsory CD.
Sure you can all stand in the same spot.
But you'll be a sitting duck with no resource in a couple of ticks.

Doesnt mean you cant ball up.
But you'll have to be bloody stupid or need a very very good reason to do it.

Plus its less liable to griefing then hard CD where you can be physically blocked.

No, the movement speed penalty is better. You do not want your resources being drained just because there are a lot of you on the wall defending the keep, while the attackers get to spread out across the ground.

That's why the resource drain would be a bad thing to implement.

And how do you escape from each other quickly if you are magnetised by a snare ?
How does that force you apart when theres plenty of situation when you are quite happy to be stationary and clumped spamming mutual buffs and heals ?
Like inside a resource tower AP farming.

Nyx2

I think there is something else he might want to fix.