Vet Rank Removal

blondjonil

I was reading the patch notes and I'm confused on the Veteran Rank Removal.
With 160CP being the new Vet 16 and sharing of CPs across accounts it makes it almost useless when one reaches level 50 to do the Silver/Gold areas since you automatically are now a Vet 16. The experience is reduced dramatically due to the new CP Ranks. One of the main reasons I made an alt was to go back and do these areas to help get experience for my CPs since I'm only at about 275 now. Seems even bigger problem with people that have 501CPs already, not much incentive to play since they have been at the max for a long time now and the new CP system provides them with little to no incentive to play. Personally I think the new Cp system is way to low and I'm only about half way to 501.

emily3989

You are correct, the only reason to do Silver and Gold is that each individual quest inside each zone of Silver and Gold grants a skill point. So I believe doing both will net you at least, but possible more, 30 skill points.

Also, if you gain CPs on your alt doing these questlines, all your toons get the CPs.

Uriel_Nocturne

blondjonil wrote: »

I was reading the patch notes and I'm confused on the Veteran Rank Removal.
With 160CP being the new Vet 16 and sharing of CPs across accounts it makes it almost useless when one reaches level 50 to do the Silver/Gold areas since you automatically are now a Vet 16. The experience is reduced dramatically due to the new CP Ranks. One of the main reasons I made an alt was to go back and do these areas to help get experience for my CPs since I'm only at about 275 now. Seems even bigger problem with people that have 501CPs already, not much incentive to play since they have been at the max for a long time now and the new CP system provides them with little to no incentive to play. Personally I think the new Cp system is way to low and I'm only about half way to 501.

Yep.

I've been blowing this horn for quite a while now.

This is a poorly thought out change, and is (IMO) catering to impatient PvP kiddos who want eight max level characters with as little effort as possible.

These will also be the first people to line up to whine about how now that they have eight maxed out characters, there's not enough content and/or nothing to do.

It's coming, just wait.

emily3989

You said "incentive to play". For PvE, there is very little incentive to play after max CP, there is only 1 trial (raid) for max levels, and all group content is stupid easy by this point.

The only true endgame in ESO is PvP, which is ironic, because it seems <10% of their development effort goes into this aspect of the game.

DRXHarbinger

Yep, 14th June...... I'll have well over 700CP, on console, I'm sure some people on PC will have enough CP to last until the day the servers go offline for good and never get to use them.

NewBlacksmurf

Man I really need ZOS to understand something and make adjustments to PTS before live rolls out.

V16 now is level 50 period.
VR16 is not nor has it ever been CP160.

The stats and skill points associated with a vr16 are now at level 50.
So the removal of VR should mean:

Players show a level of 50
NPCs show levels of 49-56 based on prior VR level indicators
Mats and gear should show a level requirement of 50 and no CP requirement.

Understand that the progression of gear and mat tiers are still in tact. The NPC level and zones determine this regardless of a VR level so keep that logic in place.

CP's should be use as passive progression and not gate any gear or designate an NPC difficulty as that's not how CPs work today.

If in the future ZOS wants to raise the level, then they should raise the player levels, skill tree levels, etc. possibly use the weapon, crafting and armor skill lines to align with the NPC level increases.

Anything else creates more problems than it solves.
Also.....160 CP's isn't a VR 16. 160 CPs is easily done with a few VR alts between levels vr1-5.
So the argument from those saying ppl should just be given higher gear....well, they are with CPs so let's just make it logical. Getting access to content and finding loot drops in the tables that exist should remain but using a CP is not logical.
They aren't even adding CP 180-501 gear and shouldn't cause there is no such thing.

Just keep with higher tiers under the top mats and if you add another in the future tie it to the zone and NPC levels of 49-56,57,58,59 and 60

emily3989

This is almost like the game is going backwards with your suggestion. Like WoW reducing the max level back to 90 with their next expansion.

NewBlacksmurf

emily3989 wrote: »

This is almost like the game is going backwards with your suggestion. Like WoW reducing the max level back to 90 with their next expansion.

Its not going backwards at all. So many conceive VR as progression but is it really progression?
-At level 50 prior to changes, can you not do anything from VR1-16 now at VR1 - 16?
-There are some thing you can't access due to a level gate and some content that will cause you to get one-shot but the CP passives at certain application and use will balance this out.

All VR16 is, honestly is a long drawn out system of obtaining a few more base stat and skill points. Thats it.
The game isn't going backwards because you're not loosing access to anything, actually you are keeping what you earned and in some cases, account progress has the potential of giving access with the scaled feel that we all get in phased activity finder instances. Basically, minus the gear scaling, what changes is our base stats and stat/skill points are given so that we are all 50/VR16

From the comparison to WoW. This would be like the redesign of the WoW talent system and reduced amount of skills. No one went backwards, they just were refined and it placed a clear concise understanding across the board.

Unlike WoW...this wont be clear and concise if ZOS decides to display a CP player and NPC level.

Morimizo

Agreed; this parallel move is mystifying.

Why not just make all creatures/loot in Cadwell's Silver/Gold, Craglorn, DLC areas all be level 50 (making sure players always get full XP and appropriate drops)?

Why not raise the CP cap, keeping the current spirit and original design of CPs intact (1002 would be fine for awhile), and add some new nodes to the CP system that would be horizontal, build-specific additions, rather than just power-based?

If the only way to improve your character once you hit the current CP cap is to maybe find some new gear that has marginal increases to maybe one stat when a new DLC comes out, I would imagine people are going to become disinterested, at least for awhile.

Like it or not, folks in RPGs tend to enjoy progression; it's a record of their journeys.

emily3989

It is progression in that:

I am stronger (I can kill harder monsters)
I get more skillpoints
I can wear improved gear

If this is not progression, I guess I am just lost.

Also, I made no specific comparison to WoW, my point can be made with any game ever made with the level cap being reduced.


Going from a vet 1-16 ranking system w/ 501 CP to a lvl 50 w/ 501 CP system is reducing progression, no matter how you dissect it.

dimensional

emily3989 wrote: »

Going from a vet 1-16 ranking system w/ 501 CP to a lvl 50 w/ 501 CP system is backwards progression, no matter how you dissect it.

It isn't, because the bonuses one gets from vet ranks are still applied to previous levels. It's only an illusion that you're losing progression.

emily3989

IF you are V16 you have already progressed, so it is irrelevant.

We are talking about the game as a whole.

My first character had to get to lvl 50, then go from V1-V16.

My next character will have to get to lvl 50...and done.

That is less progression mate.

Also, basically any gear between lvl 49 and V15 is worthless as well, since any alt will be going straight to 160CP, so they essentially will make like 8 levels of crafting materials utterly worthless to 95% of the population. So there is a huge removal of crafting progression as well.

Asherons_Call

The incentive for caldwells silver and gold? I don't know... To experience the entire game world? The skill points? The storylines?

People are too engrossed with XP. There are so much to MMOs than XP grinding

Tomg999

That's why I am leveling a single char to Lvl 50 with 0 cp on my second account, so I have something to do and can experience real progression after the coming change.

dimensional

I'm also talking about the game as a whole. The character progression stays the same, you just don't have to grind for the ranks. I'm incredibly happy for this change.

emily3989

dimensional wrote: »

I'm also talking about the game as a whole. The character progression stays the same, you just don't have to grind for the ranks. I'm incredibly happy for this change.

So not having to play through 15 additional levels of content is not removal of any progression? LMAO, dude that is the definition of less progression.

emily3989

Tomg999 wrote: »

That's why I am leveling a single char to Lvl 50 with 0 cp on my second account, so I have something to do and can experience real progression after the coming change.

I made an alt with 0 CP as well, actually fun game again, not being able to face roll every mob and actually pay attention to what I am doing

dimensional

emily3989 wrote: »

dimensional wrote: »

I'm also talking about the game as a whole. The character progression stays the same, you just don't have to grind for the ranks. I'm incredibly happy for this change.

So not having to play through 15 additional levels of content is not removal of any progression? LMAO, dude that is the definition of less progression.

Progressing through content =/= character stat progression. You're arguing two different things here.

emily3989

dimensional wrote: »

emily3989 wrote: »

dimensional wrote: »

I'm also talking about the game as a whole. The character progression stays the same, you just don't have to grind for the ranks. I'm incredibly happy for this change.

So not having to play through 15 additional levels of content is not removal of any progression? LMAO, dude that is the definition of less progression.

Progressing through content =/= character stat progression. You're arguing two different things here.

For a new player, yes, it is about the same.

For any alt, progression is reduced considerably. First, starting out with 501CP destroys initial progression right off the bat. Removing all Vet levels to lvl and gear up for is also a huge reduction.

Again, new players, same "progression", existing players, 7 max lvl alts in less time than it takes to train your stupid horse to run faster than you can.

dimensional

Removing the levels is fine as long as you retain the same benefits, which in this case you do. The only progression lost here is the progression through the game's content, not the character's stats, which was my entire point. I agree it makes going through content trivial, but then again in the recent PAX East live Q&A they strongly implied they were working on level/CP scaling for all the zones.

emily3989

I guess it would make more sense if I explained my point just a little more:

I am not referring to negative progression for any character currently, but rather less progression required for all new characters to achieve the same end game status.

So basically, the future state of the game will require less work to achieve end-game than the current game does, which means basically that they are requiring characters in the future to have to do less to achieve the same - thus less progression in the game as a whole.

dimensional

I'm not bothered by that. In fact I welcome that exact change. I do want less progression to reach end game stats, however I think they should scale all zones outside of the main 5 + Coldharbour, and disable CP for non vet characters completely to prevent the starter zones from being trivial. If they do this, it will achieve the same result of having to go through content at the highest difficulty the game will allow, but in a way that you can approach it through any pace you want. That's a good thing IMO.

NewBlacksmurf

emily3989 wrote: »

It is progression in that:

I am stronger (I can kill harder monsters)
I get more skillpoints
I can wear improved gear

If this is not progression, I guess I am just lost.

Also, I made no specific comparison to WoW, my point can be made with any game ever made with the level cap being reduced.


Going from a vet 1-16 ranking system w/ 501 CP to a lvl 50 w/ 501 CP system is reducing progression, no matter how you dissect it.

If you saw VR as actual progression ...I guess but the skill trees for weapons, class skills, guild skills, alliance skills, etc never went above 50 so to me giving more stat points and skill points only gave a false impression. That's why it's now all within 50 because nothing else changes.

wayfarerx

emily3989 wrote: »

I guess it would make more sense if I explained my point just a little more:

I am not referring to negative progression for any character currently, but rather less progression required for all new characters to achieve the same end game status.

So basically, the future state of the game will require less work to achieve end-game than the current game does, which means basically that they are requiring characters in the future to have to do less to achieve the same - thus less progression in the game as a whole.

I disagree with your assessment, primarily because I never viewed the grinding out of vet ranks as progression per se, just as busy work. The actual progression is still there (i.e. skill points, undaunted, alliance rank, achievements, gear, etc). So while VR removal leaves alts with less busy-work (the 13 million vet xp), it preserves most of the actual progression (you still need to do silver and gold for skill points, just not every damn thing in the vet zones).

HOWEVER, I am disappointed by the way the XP scaling is going to work. I'm spending my playtime now trying to get my low-level vets through silver since it looks like the XP rewards for killing silver mobs when you're past 160cp are terrible. If there's one thing ZOS really didn't need to do it was disincentivize running the silver and gold zones.

Hopefully we get scaling in gold and silver soon a-la Wrothgar, but the way they're going about it now is poorly done.

dimensional

wayfarerx wrote: »

Hopefully we get scaling in gold and silver soon a-la Wrothgar, but the way they're going about it now is poorly done.

I agree. Like I said above, they heavily implied it is something they will do in the recent PAX East live Q&A.

emily3989

wayfarerx wrote: »

I disagree with your assessment, primarily because I never viewed the grinding out of vet ranks as progression per se, just as busy work
.

Well, if you played the game (silver and gold), then wrothgar, it did progress through vet ranks. for those that just grind through it, it does not matter anyway.

wayfarerx

dimensional wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

Hopefully we get scaling in gold and silver soon a-la Wrothgar, but the way they're going about it now is poorly done.

I agree. Like I said above, they heavily implied it is something they will do in the recent PAX East live Q&A.

While true, ZOS has not historically inspired a lot of confidence when it comes to implementing things they talk about at trade shows.