Idea to Possibly Improve Sorcerer (Sustained) DPS Without Using Overload

lathbury · April 2016

Valrien wrote: »

lathbury wrote: »

reroll stam dk they got to be getting near 50k next patch. for sorc though any changes have to come with an overload nerf otherwise it throws pvp balance out. i think they should remove overload entirely it makes the job of balancing them for pve and pvp nigh on impossible. for eg if they where to give you a decent spamable overload would make it to op in pvp

Sadly that's what I'm already doing. I already have most of the BiS gear for it (Mephala, maelstrom weapons, etc.,.). I just need to buy Agility jewelry before the prices rise from the flood of stamina builds and/or farm for Alkosh rings.

If you want me to be perfectly honest I want Overload gone. Looking at everyone's arguments it's the one reason Sorcerers can't have a DPS buff. I personally never understood the reasoning of making a class's DPS rely entirely on a single ultimate that's only good for one or two fights in an entire dungeon.

ok so if they were to get rid of overload my suggestion would be a cheap ulti (same cost as soul harvest) that debuffed spell resist (similar to what nightmothers set does for stam), hit for less (but was ranged) and possibly gave a stam regen debuff. This would give sorcs a ranged semi spammable ulti that buffed their other skills. It would also provide group utility and add some nice pvp effect.

Valrien · April 2016

lathbury wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

lathbury wrote: »

reroll stam dk they got to be getting near 50k next patch. for sorc though any changes have to come with an overload nerf otherwise it throws pvp balance out. i think they should remove overload entirely it makes the job of balancing them for pve and pvp nigh on impossible. for eg if they where to give you a decent spamable overload would make it to op in pvp

Sadly that's what I'm already doing. I already have most of the BiS gear for it (Mephala, maelstrom weapons, etc.,.). I just need to buy Agility jewelry before the prices rise from the flood of stamina builds and/or farm for Alkosh rings.

If you want me to be perfectly honest I want Overload gone. Looking at everyone's arguments it's the one reason Sorcerers can't have a DPS buff. I personally never understood the reasoning of making a class's DPS rely entirely on a single ultimate that's only good for one or two fights in an entire dungeon.

ok so if they were to get rid of overload my suggestion would be a cheap ulti (same cost as soul harvest) that debuffed spell resist (similar to what nightmothers set does for stam), hit for less (but was ranged) and possibly gave a stam regen debuff. This would give sorcs a ranged semi spammable ulti that buffed their other skills. It would also provide group utility and add some nice pvp effect.

Looks fun.

Valrien · April 2016

You know, I can't believe I forgot to drop a tag here to try to get them to read it :P

@ZOS_GinaBruno could you pass this along? @Wrobel?

byrom101b16_ESO · May 2016

Valrien wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

Sorc dps isnt enough already? l0l

Compared to the other classes? No.

Because 68k overload light attacks is too weak? Lol what other class do you know hits that hard with a single spammable ability?

Do you know another class that only does respectable DPS for about 30-45 seconds before dropping off drastically? Also 68k is very circumstantial, what exactly are you doing to get those numbers?

Good Sorcerers use Shooting Star over Overload in vMoL, btw.

He's lying - there is no other explanation .You cannot get those numbers on a bleeding edge maxed out crit build with the best kit in the game and hitting a 1st level rat.

Pure bullsquirt by someone interested in their own dominance of pvp.

Oh yes -I came here to comment from your links on the Sorc. thread.

We are already togglemancers - there should be no toggle for a Sorc. spammable damage skill.

Valrien · May 2016

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

Sorc dps isnt enough already? l0l

Compared to the other classes? No.

Because 68k overload light attacks is too weak? Lol what other class do you know hits that hard with a single spammable ability?

Do you know another class that only does respectable DPS for about 30-45 seconds before dropping off drastically? Also 68k is very circumstantial, what exactly are you doing to get those numbers?

Good Sorcerers use Shooting Star over Overload in vMoL, btw.

He's lying - there is no other explanation .You cannot get those numbers on a bleeding edge maxed out crit build with the best kit in the game and hitting a 1st level rat.

Pure bullsquirt by someone interested in their own dominance of pvp.

I know, but I'd prefer he either admit it or come up with some extremely specialized and otherwise useless way to pump it that high.

CasNation · May 2016

I am thinking maybe you need to change the title of the thread to "Improving sustained sorcerer PvE DPS without reliance on Overload" so everyone can get out of their little PvP and 4-man dungeon PUG corners and see what you are actually talking about. Way too many comments related to PvP and short fights...

Waseem · May 2016

keep sorc as it is
every class has its own way
this thread is more or less a nerf thread, either for sorc or for all classes but sorc

Valrien · May 2016

CasNation wrote: »

I am thinking maybe you need to change the title of the thread to "Improving sustained sorcerer PvE DPS without reliance on Overload" so everyone can get out of their little PvP and 4-man dungeon PUG corners and see what you are actually talking about. Way too many comments related to PvP and short fights...

True. Truthfully I have no interest in PvP and 4-man. 4-man is easy as hell, and issues with Sorcs in PvP are pointless arguing about since people will always adamantly disagree based on the most petty things regardless of who's actually right.

Valrien · May 2016

Waseem wrote: »

keep sorc as it is
every class has its own way
this thread is more or less a nerf thread, either for sorc or for all classes but sorc

Please explain how. Buffing one class is not nerfing another unless there is a strict ratio of buffs-to-nerfs per patch, and the purpose of this thread is to explicitly buff Sorc sustained DPS.

Is the way of the Sorc to forever be nerfed with nothing in return? Or perhaps to always hold our Ultimates just so we can build to 1000 and burst for a few seconds? That's a pretty crappy way for a class to be, and I think you'd agree too.

greylox · May 2016

The more I've used overload, the more I hate it. I've slotted Absorbtion field so I can try and be usefull in other ways in group content but sorc is....I dunno....can't figure out quite whats wrong with sorcs

iam117 · May 2016

@Valrien your dps numbers in vmol on bosses last night were pretty freaking respectable, im sure with some more practice in there you will be pretty happy with where it sits. i do agree that it would be cool to see a little change to the current meta, it is pretty mehh, but people (yourself included) can pull great numbers without overload. was the sustain an issue at all last night? sure it will not out dps a stam dk (why they are getting buffed is beyond me) , or possibly the other classes depending on the person behind the wheel, but still very decent

Valrien · May 2016

liv3mind wrote: »

@Valrien your dps numbers in vmol on bosses last night were pretty freaking respectable, im sure with some more practice in there you will be pretty happy with where it sits. i do agree that it would be cool to see a little change to the current meta, it is pretty mehh, but people (yourself included) can pull great numbers without overload. was the sustain an issue at all last night? sure it will not out dps a stam dk (why they are getting buffed is beyond me) , or possibly the other classes depending on the person behind the wheel, but still very decent

Thank you, liv3. For sure sorcs can do respectable DPS, I'd just like it to be a little closers to the other classes. Just a couple of small changes like this will put them in the perfect spot for doing DPS.

That being said, 34k on the second boss is pretty freaking great, even if I only got the last 4 minutes of the parse

.

byrom101b16_ESO · May 2016

Waseem wrote: »

keep sorc as it is
every class has its own way
this thread is more or less a nerf thread, either for sorc or for all classes but sorc

Keep it as it is yes - but that's not what ZOS are planning. They are planning giving the 'Sorc Way' to every other class for no cost to them but wearing LA.

Valrien · May 2016

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Waseem wrote: »

keep sorc as it is
every class has its own way
this thread is more or less a nerf thread, either for sorc or for all classes but sorc

Keep it as it is yes - but that's not what ZOS are planning. They are planning giving the 'Sorc Way' to every other class for no cost to them but wearing LA.

You don't actually have to wear light armor to use Annulment. Also you have Bone Shield for stam users.

Memnock · May 2016

Valrien wrote: »

The issue with giving Sorcerers a spammable direct damage ability is that it's impossible as changing any skills that they have as a part of their base skill line will *** off a majority/minority of Sorcerers that actually use one of those skills for a legitimate purpose. I propose an idea to improve Sorcerer DPS and make everyone happy. You ready for it?

Bound Weapons. With the way ZOS implemented pets last patch, you can use a similar system to change Bound Aegis and Bound Armaments to give Sorcerers a direct damage ability after the ability is toggled on. The Magicka morph, Bound Aegis, will give the Minor Armor/Spell Resist buffs and increase Max Magicka by 8% like it does now...but after it's cast it will change into a skill that conjures a bound weapon and is used against the enemy (my idea is firing an arrow from a Bound Bow to allow the Sorcerer the option of staying ranged). The stamina morph gives the armor and stamina buff, but would be a sword strike with an animation similar to Puncture to allow stam Sorcs as well to have good sustained DPS.

In addition, I propose that the Energized and Disintegrate passives be changed to accommodate Shock, Physical (Wind?), and possibly even Magic damage if the weapons end up being that type and that abilities like Liquid Lightning, Velocious Curse (with the pet damage be made a part of the base skill), and Overload (I vote Power Overload) be given an identical stamina morph with wind effects that do Physical damage.

THIS would be a step in the right direction for improving the Sorcerer class's DPS in PvE.

An interesting change for sorc, i can see this as a new spam skill that could be super useful.

I thought of a similar chage to another skill , but this one is more intrusive than yours , the idea was posted in the PTS forum subsection , but it died out there unfortunately. Maybe you could take a look at the thread there as well : http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2943464#Comment_2943464

The short version of what i had in mind is this :

The modification involves the spell "Dark Exchange" along with maybe 1 other change to the Blood Magic passive and the idea came to me when i was playing a recently created NB alt , while thinking of build ideas for my templar alt and started to kind of see a bit of a pattern with spam skills that the rest of the classes have that also refund HP, hopefully its a decent idea , so here goes :

- Dark Exchange- The base skill is now a melee range ( 5 meters ) skill that does X Magic ( or lightning since we got that theme for our class ) damage and refunds y% of the damage done as HP over 10 seconds
- Dark Deed - This morph is still a melee range attack but it now scales off Stamina and does physical damage
- Dark Ritual - This morph has the range of the skill increase by 23 meters ( so its in line with the rest of the ranged attacks ) and obviously it scales off Magicka

Now for the passive "Blood Magic" : this passive no longer heals the caster of dark magic spells for 8% of the HP , since we got a skill for that now , but instead , it adds a regen component to the morphs for the Dark Exchange spell , namely , it provides a % regen boost for the appropriate skill ; as an example : Dark Deed , being a stamina morph will benefit from a X% stamina regen boost for 7 seconds and of course , the magicka one works in the same way.

lassitershawn · May 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

Sorc dps isnt enough already? l0l

Compared to the other classes? No.

Because 68k overload light attacks is too weak? Lol what other class do you know hits that hard with a single spammable ability?

68k? lol. MAYBE on a crem guard, if you have powerful assault, minor and major breach, combat prayer, are altmer, crit with an aggressive warhorn and trap beast, alkosh is debuffing the guard, have molag kena procced, and are using the shadow stone. A normal overload hit is nowhere near 68k.

lassitershawn · May 2016

I think a few changes to passives, and the atronach ultimate, would go a long way towards helping our sustained DPS and group utility, without making us too strong in PvP.

New Blood Magic
- Now heals nearby allies for 50% of your max HP when you use a Dark Magic ability. Adds some nice group utility, without having too much of an effect on PvP.
New Rebate
- Now gives 8% increased critical chance, and pets do 15% more damage. Flat DPS boost with minimal effect on PvP as crit isn't a very good thing to invest in for PvP anyways (impen, damage shields, etc.).
New Expert Summoner
- Toggles now only have to be active on one bar, but will still benefit both bars (toggles on overload bar will not apply to main bars). This frees us up from having to double bar Bound Aegis, allowing us to slot another ability for more DPS, and giving us the benefit or a more interesting rotation. Since it would also allow pets to only be on one bar, they might actually be used.
New Greater Storm Atronach
- Impact damage increased by 40%. Damage increased by 30%. Now gives the summoner Major Berserk for 15 seconds. This makes the atronach very viable to use for PvE sustained DPS. The new Rebate buffs its damage further by 15%, and since we have a new slot on our front bar from Expert Summoner changes, we could add Daedric Prey to our DPS rotation. Adds some group utility because the synergy is very good, buffing both the DPS of the sorc who summoned the atro (gives Major Berserk to the atronach), and by buffing the DPS of the synergizer.
- This would make the atro significantly better in PvP as well, but it is already relatively easy to counter in PvP and most sorcs are using different ultimates in PvP, so an atronach buff in PvP isn't necessarily bad.

Dagoth_Rac · May 2016

Valrien wrote: »

1. Stamplars are getting crazy buffs next update.

What buffs are Stamplars getting? Burning Light will do 25% more damage as physical, but it is RNG and thus not reliable and has an internal cooldown and is a fairly minor part of DPS. Power of the Light will do Physical damage, but PotL has a damage cap that is not hard to hit even as magic damage. So the 25% extra damage from being physical is kind of useless as it will just get thrown away for being over damage cap. 28000 magic damage versus 35000 physical damage is identical when damage cap is 24000.

What other Stamplar buffs were there? That is all I recall seeing.

Dymence · May 2016

Katahdin wrote: »

Magicka Sorc can out DPS everything except maybe a Stam NB.
If youre having trouble DPSing with a sorc you need to examine your build.

And Yes Ive played both.

Haha, stamina nightblade and highest DPS class in one sentence? Haven't heard that joke for a while

Kammakazi · May 2016

Sorcerers need:

Liquid Lightning to have higher damage scaling

Everything else is fine. Actually no, give us 8% Max Magicka so we don't have to triple slot Bound Aegis. =/

RebornV3x · May 2016

Sorcs kinda already have a spammable ability its called Tangled Webs I know its a stam ability now and an Unduanted skill. I used to use it with my duel wield mag sorc builds. So why not replace 1 of the horrible class skills we have with something similar.

Polysemy · May 2016

To all yous saying sorc is higher then all other classes I lol

Sorc is the worst

Sorc is good for like 60s tops or in cleave situations

Ajax_22 · May 2016

Katahdin wrote: »

Magicka Sorc can out DPS everything except maybe a Stam NB.
If youre having trouble DPSing with a sorc you need to examine your build.

And Yes Ive played both.

You have not clue what you are talking about. Sorcs have the lowest magic DPS in content that actually matters, VR16 Trials. Overload is actually a significant DPS loss over using Meteor every time it comes up. If you are comparing you DPS to other classes in 4 man dungeons then Sorcs will be higher because the bosses have low enough health that you can go strait from Overload to execute. This is not an accurate DPS comparison.

AOECAPS wrote: »

Lol sorcs qqing stamplars have to slot repentance to get additional recovery have worthless defense and main dos ability relies on a passive that has an internal cool down so it doesn't proc every time plus no physical ult to scale with currently.sorcs are the last people to be crying about dps when you can build and save ult and then spam for 40k light attacks. Sure buff sorc dps and then eliminate overload or you can only fire off one and it costs 200 that's fair. GTFO about sorc dps

Won't deny Stamplars are in a bad spot. However, Overload is trash on any fight that lasts more than a few minutes. Any Sorc that runs Trials would gladly give up Overload for a sustained DPS increase.

Aleraon · May 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

Sorc dps isnt enough already? l0l

Compared to the other classes? No.

Because 68k overload light attacks is too weak? Lol what other class do you know hits that hard with a single spammable ability?

Sorcerers also have to save up a 1000 ultimate just to make overload worth using though that saved 1000 ultimate burns through pretty quickly before needing to be saved up again. Most other classes can drop ultimates whenever and get them back up again within a reasonable amount of time.

incite · June 2016

Valrien wrote: »

incite wrote: »

Seems a lot of people think they have a valid opinion when it comes to pvp sorcs, how laughable when i read some of the comments here

Is that a jab at people who want to improve Sorcerers or nerf them to the ground? :P

the ones who want to nerf em :-)

NativeJoe · June 2016

Katahdin wrote: »

Magicka Sorc can out DPS everything except maybe a Stam NB.
If youre having trouble DPSing with a sorc you need to examine your build.

And Yes Ive played both.

What game are you playing? I want in it.

NativeJoe · June 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

Sorc dps isnt enough already? l0l

Compared to the other classes? No.

Because 68k overload light attacks is too weak? Lol what other class do you know hits that hard with a single spammable ability?

Screen shot or it never happend. Go ahead. get out there with your altmer, 4 friends to give you buffs, molag kena and elegant. Nirnhoned weapons, shadow stone, and a fully debuffed target.

Glyntt · June 2016

Who wants to use a magic bow? If I'm conjuring a weapon, why can't I conjure up a magic staff? At least come up with an idea that fits with sorcerer meta. Even if it's the best thing in the game, this sorcerer won't be prancing around the forest with a magic bow any time soon....

holosoul · June 2016

If removing overload got our baseline dps buffed, you would hear cheers of excitement from every single sorc except probably the really derpy ones that can only spam overload for their cyrodiil experience, lets pretend that's a minority and most sorcs don't crutch it

only a little sarcastic, I really would like to see overload removed (completely. not reworked, removed)

Attackopsn · June 2016

I think many people are misinformed here. I think it would be entirely beneficial if someone were to run multiple vso mantikora parses or something to show the people here commenting that do not play the highest level of content why sorcerer is somewhat undesirable compared to the other classes other than bringing one for the spell critical buff. I saw an interesting suggesion above that might be cool relating to the synergy based major berserk being additionally applied to the caster. Maybe the atronach ultimates major berserk timer and ultimate cost could be adjusted to a duration that equalized magicka sorcerer with the other classes? In magsorcs current state I don't really see a point in having them in a competitive group other than the critical bonus. Just my two cents though

I haven't done much research into the latest changes between the stamina and magicka variants, but I believe that if there were an optimal way of implementing dark magic into a stamina sorcerer's rotation it would be more desirable to bring a stam sorc over magicka at least in less mobile situations. I just don't think there is an optimal way to do this.