Staffs - Now is the time for a damage upgrade!

Lord-Otto

Alright, I'm calling this. With the incoming changes to ultimates, no valid reason remains for staffs (especially destro) having lower weapon damage than 2h/DW. Staff damage MUST be upgraded to compete with the aforementioned.

Staffs, especially destruction, still suffer from poor base values and useless passives. In the near past, this could be somewhat circumvented, especially by sorcs, by using DW/2h for your class skills and DoTs. That robbed you of weaving, so a direct dps and sustain loss. Having the upper hand in ultimates and exploiting Thaumaturge made up, though.
This won't be viable anymore. Thaumaturge in this regard is gone, and the new stamina ultimates will be OP, especially Dawnbreaker and Incap Strike. Mag DKs are now left with pitiful damage and that useless whip, and sorcs will now absolutely need Crushing Shock for dps, which is very weak, thanks to destro staffs. It is simple math that shows your typical 2.8k dps on magicka builds just can't compete with your typical 3k+ on stamina builds. It is not balanced.
Some might argue that staffs are ranged, which is an advantage. And I partly agree. But, so are bows. And ranged combat is only effective while on walls or while ganking. The truth is, with all these ridiculous gapclosers, ranged combat is non-existent in your normal combat. Therefore, staff damage should be the same. But, gapclosers should remain strong to counter the ranged damage.

That's my three dollars.

psychotic13

I didn't even read most of it, but the weave is what makes the staff powerful.

A ranged weapon shouldn't be as powerful as a melee weapon that's simple logic.

psychotic13

Although I agree it could have some better Passives.

dday3six

Most Magicka DK's I know are Vampires in PVP and use Bats as their main Ultimate. Most use SnS in fact, rather than Destro, and run 5pc of heavy armor. The changes will infact buff that playstyle. Not really seeing they using Magicka DK as an example justifies a Destro buff.

Sorcs in the same manner have used DW before the changes to Thaumaturge and it worked out just fine. You swap to Resto for Magicka as needed, just like before. This helps to build Ult, and you can weave with DW in CQC simply for the Ult gen if needed. The main harm to their dps output are the changes to Magicka Det. However their still have plenty of options for Ultimates with Overload, Meteor, Soul Assualt, Negate Magic, Storm Atro, and even Bats.

Stamina needed to be rebalanced. Magicka builds are going to be fine, you'll just have to get use to not being at such a power level advantage over Stanina users anymore.

psychotic13

but DKs need to be up in your face, all of the Abilitys have low range so being 28m away with Destro isnt were you're at your strongest, works fine for other classes.

Stamina did need to be rebalanced and have a buff, that I agree with, but by nerfin some of the mag builds at the same time they haven't achieved balance they've tipped the scales the other way.

Stamina should've been buffed, and Magicka pretty much left as it is with a few tweaks.

leepalmer95

Staff hit quite hard already

Xvorg

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Staff hit quite hard already

and dunmer flame staves can hit like a truck

CyrusArya

Magicka weapons are weaker than Stamina weapons because almost all class DPS skills are magicka based. One specialization draws their strength from their class trees, and the other from the weapon trees.

Emma_Overload

psychotic13 wrote: »

I didn't even read most of it, but the weave is what makes the staff powerful.

A ranged weapon shouldn't be as powerful as a melee weapon that's simple logic.

Well, if you had read to the end, you would have seen the OP say this:

The truth is, with all these ridiculous gapclosers, ranged combat is non-existent in your normal combat.

I've said it myself many times... there is no such thing as "ranged' combat in PvP. NOBODY just lets you stand there and lob Crystal Frags from 28 meters. Everybody and their mother is a spambushing Stamblade who gets right up in your face 24/7.

psychotic13

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

I didn't even read most of it, but the weave is what makes the staff powerful.

A ranged weapon shouldn't be as powerful as a melee weapon that's simple logic.

Well, if you had read to the end, you would have seen the OP say this:

The truth is, with all these ridiculous gapclosers, ranged combat is non-existent in your normal combat.

I've said it myself many times... there is no such thing as "ranged' combat in PvP. NOBODY just lets me stand there and lob Crystal Frags from 28 meters. Everybody and their mother is a spambushing Stamblade who gets right up in your face 24/7.

I disagree, I play from range on my sorc and I find it pretty easy to keep the distance, I understand it may not be the same for all classes.

I normally run daedric tomb so I can throw mines inbetween myself and the enemy so they hesitate at rushing me, rune cage helps too. I also run radiant Mage light so the night blades don't stay too close for too long and for the empowerment is great with the proc'd crystal frags.

Xvorg

For the DB patch I've been theorycrafting on a NB who uses a staff and heavy/light attacks as main dmg (together with Merc ressolve and mark). Yesterday I did some test on my argonian NB with a frost staff and found some interesting things:

Build

Frost saff. 5 pieces kagre, 3 pieces torug, 3 pieces willpower (jewelry) 5L-1H-1M armor. 1.6 K spell dmg. 28k magicka (without food)

inner light
siph sttack
funnel health
merc ressolve
Reapers mark

U Barrier (with the shields nerf, this is the only one that will be the same and 30k in PvE is quite powerful).

In Wrothgar against giants and mammuts I got some decent numbers (for an argonian) 13K heavy attack, 21 K crit ass will (with mark applied), 3K light attacks

Now I'm thinkig about this build:

Race: Dunmer (argonian if they get a bonus on DB poisons)

Malestrom Flame staff. 5 pieces julianos, 2 kena, 3 willpower. 7L (for penetration)

inner light
siph attacks/leech strikes
Funnel health/impale/struct entropy/Agony
Merc ressolve
Piercing mark

U Replenishing barrier (heal and shield)

The idea is to use the light and heavy attacks as main attacks to proc kena and ass will. Since it is going to use mainly heavy and light attacks, the bubble should be up most of the time.

I want to use the poisons a lot. I imagine that their effects will be similar to those we already know (which are the negative effects of pots, such as reduce wpn/spell dmg, stun, ravage health/stam/magicka, etc.)

Blue CPs are key here. Maybe 75 for staff mastery (to get the execute bonus on light and heavy), then 50 to element expert and the rest to crit. I imagine that red should go to healing received and bastion, while green.... actually IDK where to put green (since it is going to use heavy and light attacks, cost reduction and magicka regen are almost pointless).

Hope it works

Jaiden

INCREASE BOW DAMAGE!!!!!

bloodenragedb14_ESO

psychotic13 wrote: »

I didn't even read most of it, but the weave is what makes the staff powerful.

A ranged weapon shouldn't be as powerful as a melee weapon that's simple logic.

not really, when you take in account that its magic

mages in video games have always held the best dps, sad its not true in eso

regardless, the staff's dps potential should most certianlly be upgraded, if not above, to at least be on par with melee

golfercb

You cannot be serious? Mag dk is one of the highest damage dealing class setups in the game.

psychotic13

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

I didn't even read most of it, but the weave is what makes the staff powerful.

A ranged weapon shouldn't be as powerful as a melee weapon that's simple logic.

not really, when you take in account that its magic

mages in video games have always held the best dps, sad its not true in eso

regardless, the staff's dps potential should most certianlly be upgraded, if not above, to at least be on par with melee

Well I disagree, staff should be level with a 1h weapon or bow, which it is. To say it should be level with DW or 2h is stupid, with a staff and playing from range I can't take some of your health before you even get close enough to start damaging me, the only way to make these meet in power is for the 2h and DW to be more powerful, which they are.

Cathexis

CyrusArya wrote: »

Magicka weapons are weaker than Stamina weapons because almost all class DPS skills are magicka based. One specialization draws their strength from their class trees, and the other from the weapon trees.

I'd just like to say I'd rather have access to more class skills and ults, and equal weapons, than slightly better weapons and mostly useless class skills as a stam user.

psychotic13 wrote: »

I didn't even read most of it, but the weave is what makes the staff powerful.

A ranged weapon shouldn't be as powerful as a melee weapon that's simple logic.

psychotic13 wrote: »

Although I agree it could have some better Passives.

These are both true.

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

I didn't even read most of it, but the weave is what makes the staff powerful.

A ranged weapon shouldn't be as powerful as a melee weapon that's simple logic.

Well, if you had read to the end, you would have seen the OP say this:

The truth is, with all these ridiculous gapclosers, ranged combat is non-existent in your normal combat.

I've said it myself many times... there is no such thing as "ranged' combat in PvP. NOBODY just lets you stand there and lob Crystal Frags from 28 meters. Everybody and their mother is a spambushing Stamblade who gets right up in your face 24/7.

Ranged play used to be a lot more viable but I don't think that it is entirely non existent. I predominantly use range as harassment/executes/ulti building. Is it effective for straight up combat though? No. I definitely don't run an all range build if I'm expecting to engage.

Xvorg

psychotic13 wrote: »

bloodenragedb14_ESO wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

I didn't even read most of it, but the weave is what makes the staff powerful.

A ranged weapon shouldn't be as powerful as a melee weapon that's simple logic.

not really, when you take in account that its magic

mages in video games have always held the best dps, sad its not true in eso

regardless, the staff's dps potential should most certianlly be upgraded, if not above, to at least be on par with melee

Well I disagree, staff should be level with a 1h weapon or bow, which it is. To say it should be level with DW or 2h is stupid, with a staff and playing from range I can't take some of your health before you even get close enough to start damaging me, the only way to make these meet in power is for the 2h and DW to be more powerful, which they are.

Yesterday I tried my flame staff in PvP (Dunmer NB, 75 points into staff expert, 50 pints into elemental expert, mark target and merc ressolve. VR 13, 2020 Spell dmg)

It hits like a truck. Light attacks at 2-3K, heavy attacks at 7K... And I still done have kena's head.

Minalan

The destruction staff passives need a slight boost to be competitive with the new Stam weapon changes, but they aren't bad.

Aren't the light/heavy attacks boosted by the elemental CP since they are elemental damage?

Xvorg

Minalan wrote: »

The destruction staff passives need a slight boost to be competitive with the new Stam weapon changes, but they aren't bad.

Aren't the light/heavy attacks boosted by the elemental CP since they are elemental damage?

yup, they are.

You can put 75 points on staff mastery and 75 points on elemental expert to get a huge bonus (near 40% or even more). The thing is that you will miss the extra crit.

On top of that, as dunmer you have a 7% extra dmg on every flame effect, and fully charged heavy flame does an extra 12% dmg. If you throw an extra 8% through merc ressolve and a 20% extra on empower (through might of the guild), you gan get a prretty solid heavy attack.

And I'm not considering Spell dmg, neither a set that increases dmg of basic attacks in one way or another (such as elegance, or sargent's mail)

STEVIL

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Therefore, staff damage should be the same. But, gapclosers should remain strong to counter the ranged damage.

That's my three dollars.

My 2c is RANGE!!!! You dont get the damage of DW and 2h and also get the range of the staff and its ranged weaving.

c'mon.

Anti_Virus

If staff gets a dmg increase, then bow needs one too.
And that last part about range combat is SO true thats why bow needs a buff.

DjSolJAH

psychotic13 wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

I didn't even read most of it, but the weave is what makes the staff powerful.

A ranged weapon shouldn't be as powerful as a melee weapon that's simple logic.

Well, if you had read to the end, you would have seen the OP say this:

The truth is, with all these ridiculous gapclosers, ranged combat is non-existent in your normal combat.

I've said it myself many times... there is no such thing as "ranged' combat in PvP. NOBODY just lets me stand there and lob Crystal Frags from 28 meters. Everybody and their mother is a spambushing Stamblade who gets right up in your face 24/7.

I disagree, I play from range on my sorc and I find it pretty easy to keep the distance, I understand it may not be the same for all classes.

I normally run daedric tomb so I can throw mines inbetween myself and the enemy so they hesitate at rushing me, rune cage helps too. I also run radiant Mage light so the night blades don't stay too close for too long and for the empowerment is great with the proc'd crystal frags.

I'm the complete opposite. Anyone who has fought me before knows my sorc is up in your face. I have a specific play style though. Not much you can keep distance from with a group headed your way

Mojmir

staff should get dual wield attacks,one from each end and we can twirl them like batons.