Poison making cant go live the way they work now

STEVIL

RabNebula wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

The poisons in their currwnt state are massively overpowered

Yeh the poisons and everything in between in this patch coming is going to completely ruin the meta and nullify the usage of certain classes. Magic DK's especially will have it harder than ever because with all the stam buffs the are just not going to out last a stam build up close and they dont have any decent damage over range. Poison dk with poisons on top is going to be the real nail in the mdk coffin. Im definitely going to be getting into this poison stuff in that update just like everybody else will. Bore of a patch.

It' a shame ZoS dont use much common sense in their patches. Always something thats ridiculously op and even worse they've only just buffed up mdks making them just about useable and now theyre smashing them out of the meta again.

"Yeh the poisons and everything in between in this patch coming is going to CHANGE the meta"

YAY!!!

Ser Lobo

Wollust wrote: »

andy.s wrote: »

Please, read the patchnotes:

Poison effects are intended to become weaker (diluted) as the number of effects on the potion increases. This behavior is not yet working as intended, so potions with multiple effects are currently much stronger than they should be.

Yes, they are intended to become weaker if a poison has multiple effects.
Doesn't change the fact that there is a poison to increase enemy costs of skills by 30% and other weird effects. That's completely op

I keep reading these reactions and thinking to myself, 'Yay! We can finally kill the little godlings and their infinite resource pools!'

Funny how bad this looks for some, and how others are just feeling plain giddy at the news!

Mojmir

STEVIL wrote: »

genjutsu_kami wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

If everybody gets access to them whats the problem, if they deliver too much dmg, people need invest in health more.

your concept is as frightening as the era of ***. just because everyone can access them does not mean they are good, poison in general at the current values do way to much damage and suck out resources and give way to much advantage. also these poison stack on 1 individual if more than one person is using it, so think about that for a second. poision making at the moment is a bad idea but if it is going to come it needs to have way lower values then it has now. to the point where it compares and competes with weapon enchants so people have to make a difficult decision what to run. because at the moment poison will be what everyone runs in pvp and to think other wise either suggest you don't have any concept on pvp, you don't pvp often or your just plain stupid.

So, just to be clear, you are aware that enchants are going up in power to like say 3-4x their current damage?

poisons are meant to be a trade-off decision for enchants.
Do you want the special effects of poisons or the type of damage and other procs from enchants?
once in playtest they get that right and fix the multi-effect poison bug so the values drop with multiple effects it becomes a difference not an abuse.

yes if multiple people hit you, you take the effects from each unless the effect have a specified name that dont stack. NOTICE i did not say "poisons" since it applies to practically everything in ESO.

So what in the name of Yosimite Sam's Favorite Moustache Wax is the big uproar?

Oh wait, adding a brand new means of attack that can affect previous unassailable aspects by "raising all stamina costs by 30%" or "raising all magic costs by 30%" means probably rethinking a whole lot of "yes i can sacrifice sustains for damage" PVP max effect current FOTM min max builds.

So its change that we didn't get by lobbying for favorable shifts in the rules aka that arch demon nemesis of minmaxing everywhere.

Clarity is a flower that smells bad.

LOL

STEVIL

and now the end is near and tho we face the final curtain...

Day 6 of the playtest and dang it, the sun came up again!!!

And for all those "we KNOW KNOW KNOW KNOW ZOS doesnt change in PTS"...

posted on the official poison thread...

Hey guys, wanted to chime in and say we definitely hear the balance concerns for Poison-Making- it’s a big part of why we called out in our known issues that these numbers are in no way final. We’re hearing you, and so here are some of the changes we’re making for the next PTS incremental patch and onward:

Increasing poison cooldowns to 10 seconds.
This gives us more comfortable balance points for poisons, both versus potential alpha strike scenarios and for stronger considerations for debilitating poison durations.
Your stacks of poison will also last much longer.
Poisons will also be more noticeably distinct from weapon enchantments, which largely deal in instant effects.

Converting all “instant” poison effects into “over-time” poison effects.
This gives us a very strong counter to potential alpha strike scenarios and also permits us to “trickle” positive feedback effects from drain poisons, such as the resource returns from Magicka/Stamina drain poisons.

Converting all “drain” poisons to convey both a minor debuff and minor buff, not a major buff.
A bit of a nice bonus – by doing this, there’s more value in alchemy in that your player abilities or potions will more easily stack with your potential self-buffing poisons.

Clarified the tooltips on all “drain” poisons.
They don’t actually remove buffs from players. They apply relevant debuffs to your target, and “splash” a relevant buff onto you when they trigger. We’ve clarified the wording to help message this more clearly.

Updated the item names, for clarity’s sake.
The pattern of differentiation between potions and poisons resulted in most poisons using the same names as potions (with different prefixes and suffixes) in 2.4.0, and despite icon differences and the different naming pattern there was still a lot of potential for confusion, especially in what a poison actually does.
There were also some cases where reagents and oils weren’t always dropping as intended, and we fixed those too.

All of the above items are in place for next week's PTS incremental patch. There are some more changes and updates we’re planning for future PTS patches:
Significant changes to poison effect durations and the logic we use to arrive on that.
Effectively, we’ll be adjusting the maximum duration certain poisons can last. Poisons granting Unstoppable or Vulnerability for example are lasting significantly longer than intended.

Core implementation of “dilution.”
This addition will ensure that the more effects there are on a poison, the less time each of those effects will last. Certain very powerful effects may, when diluted, last only an eye blink.

Adjustments to how the FX display.
In some cases VFX are inadvertently firing continuously as long as the poison is active which is not intended.

As always, please continue experimenting with the system and providing feedback. We are listening to everything you all have to say about Poison-Making and are actively tuning the system.
Chris Balser




Hmmmm... do they sell the fact-blocker shades at Wal-Mart?

Clarity is a flower that smells bad.

Waseem

poison= P2W - spam poisons on your opponent, you win.
poisons CD is freaking low (1-3 seconds?)
you can apply 2 poisons in 1 second( main and back bars)

mtwiggz

Good luck with this one ZoS. Adding in more content that completely ruins the ever teetering balance you still haven't provided us with.

Twilix01

Waseem wrote: »

poison= P2W - spam poisons on your opponent, you win.
poisons CD is freaking low (1-3 seconds?)
you can apply 2 poisons in 1 second( main and back bars)

How are poisons pay to win when you don't need to pay for them to have access to them?

Waseem

Twilix01 wrote: »

Waseem wrote: »

poison= P2W - spam poisons on your opponent, you win.
poisons CD is freaking low (1-3 seconds?)
you can apply 2 poisons in 1 second( main and back bars)

How are poisons pay to win when you don't need to pay for them to have access to them?

not everyone can afford to burn 1000 poisons each PvP session

STEVIL

Waseem wrote: »

Twilix01 wrote: »

Waseem wrote: »

poison= P2W - spam poisons on your opponent, you win.
poisons CD is freaking low (1-3 seconds?)
you can apply 2 poisons in 1 second( main and back bars)

How are poisons pay to win when you don't need to pay for them to have access to them?

not everyone can afford to burn 1000 poisons each PvP session

Can everyone afford all gold gear and all gold enchants and all the 10xmats vr16 and purple or gold food?

All of those like poisons cost IN-GAME resources that are sometimes rare and expensive.

But p2w is not normally in gsme costs.

You may see it that way tho.

To each his or her own.

Knightpanther

Why does everyone continue to say the sky is falling in just because of PvPer?
The poisons look great for PVE.

Be safe

Cazic

From the patch notes:

• The overall power of weapon enchantments has been significantly increased.

That should balance things out, no?

Volkodav

Go into the PTS and see how Poison works. Rather well,I think.

eserras7b16_ESO

Its not about that. posions are good for people aproaching other players with melee weapons, not all builds do that, we shoudlnt must use this venom. Having venom is cool, wich helps put stamina builds on the competitive board, but if they are made too strong balance will break

Volkodav

The poisons were added mostly for the Dark Brotherhood quests,I think.I have gotten poisons in my inventory in the PTS and did few quests for the DB so far.Poisons are going to be used besides the special weapon you get as well.

Emma_Overload

MasterSpatula wrote: »

I'm not really interested in poisons, so I haven't been following this topic.

Is there any drawback to using poisons? Any sort of balancing thing so those of us who don't want to use them (for RP reasons or whatever) aren't completely hobbled?

Or are they something everyone will have to be using all the time to stay competitive?

Yeah, this is my biggest concern, too. I don't mind if they're "OP" or whatever, because that means that they could actually be useful. What I don't like is the prospect of being FORCED to grind (or pay) for mats in order to make these things, if it turns how that you can't compete in PvP without them.

Emma_Overload

STEVIL wrote: »

Waseem wrote: »

Twilix01 wrote: »

Waseem wrote: »

poison= P2W - spam poisons on your opponent, you win.
poisons CD is freaking low (1-3 seconds?)
you can apply 2 poisons in 1 second( main and back bars)

How are poisons pay to win when you don't need to pay for them to have access to them?

not everyone can afford to burn 1000 poisons each PvP session

Can everyone afford all gold gear and all gold enchants and all the 10xmats vr16 and purple or gold food?

All of those like poisons cost IN-GAME resources that are sometimes rare and expensive.

But p2w is not normally in gsme costs.

You may see it that way tho.

To each his or her own.

You only have to pay for gear every now and then. Poisons have the potential to make the 2014 potion spam era look like child's play.

STEVIL

eserras7b16_ESO wrote: »

Its not about that. posions are good for people aproaching other players with melee weapons, not all builds do that, we shoudlnt must use this venom. Having venom is cool, wich helps put stamina builds on the competitive board, but if they are made too strong balance will break

Uhhhh you do know poisons work with staves, right? I dont know if i have ever sern an intentionally weaponless pc in eso.

STEVIL

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

I'm not really interested in poisons, so I haven't been following this topic.

Is there any drawback to using poisons? Any sort of balancing thing so those of us who don't want to use them (for RP reasons or whatever) aren't completely hobbled?

Or are they something everyone will have to be using all the time to stay competitive?

Yeah, this is my biggest concern, too. I don't mind if they're "OP" or whatever, because that means that they could actually be useful. What I don't like is the prospect of being FORCED to grind (or pay) for mats in order to make these things, if it turns how that you can't compete in PvP without them.

Poisons stop enchanrs.
Enchants being upped to be on par with poisons.
Trade-off.

STEVIL

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Waseem wrote: »

Twilix01 wrote: »

Waseem wrote: »

poison= P2W - spam poisons on your opponent, you win.
poisons CD is freaking low (1-3 seconds?)
you can apply 2 poisons in 1 second( main and back bars)

How are poisons pay to win when you don't need to pay for them to have access to them?

not everyone can afford to burn 1000 poisons each PvP session

Can everyone afford all gold gear and all gold enchants and all the 10xmats vr16 and purple or gold food?

All of those like poisons cost IN-GAME resources that are sometimes rare and expensive.

But p2w is not normally in gsme costs.

You may see it that way tho.

To each his or her own.

You only have to pay for gear every now and then. Poisons have the potential to make the 2014 potion spam era look like child's play.

And they have the potential to not.

They WILL shake up the meta and add a whole new "designer attack mode" that has the potential make "any single meta" vulnerable.

ContraTempo

Having played with this some on PTS my concerns about poisons are different. I'm not that worried about them being overly strong (they are) because that is exactly what we are testing on PTS. I expect the strength to be adjusted before release.

I do wonder if some of the non lethal effects will undo some of the work ZOS has put into balancing the classes. They are eliminating a lot of CC and snaring (not that I agree with all their choices) and it seems like poisons put much of that back. But before getting too worked up over this remember that poison is unreliable and does not proc every time. It is consumable and runs out. It's requires time and mats to craft.

I am most concerned about what will be sold in the Crown store. I think this is the first item being sold that actually does damage to NPCs and (in PVP) to other players. How strong will it be? Can we craft something better? If so, will that only be true for the player who has a master alchemist, or can any alchemist beat what's in the Crown store? And if I can always buy stronger poisons in a guild store, why would I pay Crowns? IMO these need to be carefully considered to avoid P2W. I am rather uncomfortable with the Crown store selling any gear that actually does damage as it clearly steps beyond "convenience".

Mojmir

so would best of both worlds be dual wield caster with posion? and alchemy enchantment on jewels(literally no cooldown) also do the poisons count as drinking a potion to proc the clever alchemy set?

NBrookus

MasterSpatula wrote: »

I'm not really interested in poisons, so I haven't been following this topic.

Is there any drawback to using poisons? Any sort of balancing thing so those of us who don't want to use them (for RP reasons or whatever) aren't completely hobbled?

Or are they something everyone will have to be using all the time to stay competitive?

Well, the override your weapon enchant temporarily. This could be good or bad. And of course they are consumable and you have to acquire materials to craft them, whereas enchants are a one time thing.

I imagine we'll mostly see poisons in PvP, maybe some trials and of course for RP reasons. But some people will no doubt craft builds for PvE that rely on poisons for damage or resource return.

I agree with others that this potentially adds a level of complexity and adaptability to PvP builds. If you are a bursty, low regen glass cannon and you get hit with something that significantly increases your resource costs, you could lose your ability to burst someone down. If it happens a lot, you can change your build or fight back with your own poison concoctions.

Twilix01

Waseem wrote: »

Twilix01 wrote: »

Waseem wrote: »

poison= P2W - spam poisons on your opponent, you win.
poisons CD is freaking low (1-3 seconds?)
you can apply 2 poisons in 1 second( main and back bars)

How are poisons pay to win when you don't need to pay for them to have access to them?

not everyone can afford to burn 1000 poisons each PvP session

Your point? By that logic the potions in the game are pay to win as well. But the potions you can buy in the crown store, and the poisons listed on PTS crown store, only have one variety to them while an actual crafter can make potions that have much more use to them. I can't think of anyone who actually would prefer to use real money to buy consumables from the crown store over spending gold on better potions, when gold is not that hard to get if you actually try instead of sitting and whining about being broke.

We also don't even know how much people will be charging for crafting poisons since you can make a maximum of 12 per batch, so spending just ten of an oil and each of the reagants you're using, you already have over 1/10th of the "1000 poisons each PvP session" you state. On top of that we also don't know on average how many poisons you'll be using per session since the update hasn't reached live so no real test can be made on that front.

And again there's the fact that the only poisons in the game you pay real money for are that ONE type in the crown store, and we're not even sure if that's in for anything more than just testing (but it's likely it'll make it to live), and anyone who actually thinks poisons are necessary to use will find an alchemist to make the ones they really want.

HoloYoitsu

Sausage wrote: »

If everybody gets access to them whats the problem, if they deliver too much dmg, people need invest in health more.

That is and always has been the stupidest retort to critiques of the game's movement towards more and more high dmg burst metas.

7788b14_ESO

So will animation cancelling negate the damage over time effect of poisons?

Wolfshead

RazielSR wrote: »

Are you people aware that poison is EXTREMELY OP and unbalanced? Please read reactions from PTS http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/261818/official-feedback-thread-for-poison-making/p4

This is gonna destroy for sure all pvp environment. Not that I care about pvp so much but hell...this is insane.

And you people wanted spellmaking??

Hah

Needs a 50% nerf at least.

You do know the have 30 days from now to fix the problem and how about you post your concern PTS part on the forum so the can read and how about you send ingame bug report instead off post on general part on this forum where chance is the wont read or miss read total if you think it is something wrong with it.

arkansas_ESO

Can't say I'm too excited about them. Poisons can be made to have a LOT of effects (reduce damage taken, increase target's damage taken, and increase target's cost of stamina skills all in one poison) with little downsides (at most losing some extra flame damage or something similar) and -really- tip the odds into the favor of the larger group when it comes to 1vXing (four people using poisons on you=four times the chance you get hit with one of these insanely powerful debuffs). In addition, it's another consumable to keep up with if you want to be as strong as you can be, which just sounds like a headache.

Lysette

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

I'm not really interested in poisons, so I haven't been following this topic.

Is there any drawback to using poisons? Any sort of balancing thing so those of us who don't want to use them (for RP reasons or whatever) aren't completely hobbled?

Or are they something everyone will have to be using all the time to stay competitive?

Yeah, this is my biggest concern, too. I don't mind if they're "OP" or whatever, because that means that they could actually be useful. What I don't like is the prospect of being FORCED to grind (or pay) for mats in order to make these things, if it turns how that you can't compete in PvP without them.

I always wonder from where people get the idea, that competition would have to be between people which are on an equal level. This is an ideal which is not met in reality and should as well not be in a game world this way. If you feel weak, group up with others or find a way to outsmart your enemy. You are not forced to anything, you can use poisons just like anyone else or you can say, no I do not want to learn that, and find another way to counter this - agony comes to mind with it in a 1:1 situation as a NB for example. Poison are a dangerous thing and you should fear them, that is in the very nature of a poison.

TheHsN

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

You guys read that bit of the patch notes about the fact that poisons currently do not display the correct values and/or work correctly, right?

they were saying vicious death set jusr damage recap problem... but it is an wxwcute below %20 health

KanedaSyndrome

Waseem wrote: »

Twilix01 wrote: »

Waseem wrote: »

poison= P2W - spam poisons on your opponent, you win.
poisons CD is freaking low (1-3 seconds?)
you can apply 2 poisons in 1 second( main and back bars)

How are poisons pay to win when you don't need to pay for them to have access to them?

not everyone can afford to burn 1000 poisons each PvP session

Got nothing to do with P2W. You need to read up on the definition of P2W.