DB Poison: IF they are Alchemy potions, they are awesome for assasinations !

hrothbern

It is ofc speculative to assume that the poisons we get in the DB DLC are to be made by Alchemy.
Although all these ravaging debuffs that are possible with Alchemy potions were not useful so far
We have to wait and see
So.... perhaps....

But if indeed the case.... then we get some awfully good debuffs with a 45 seconds duration especially good for assasinations/duelling.

Here some examples of Alchemy potions I made:

The "slow" poison potion against Stamina builds:


The Physical Resist debuff poison potion that Stamina build could use:


The Spell Resist debuff poison potion that Magicka builds could use:


As you can see the "slow" potion is a debuff all the way
And the Spell and Physical debuff potions do possibly a buff as well to your target.
However a LA build for example, already having his LA passive Spell Resist debuff Concentration of 5k, has for 45 seconds a total debuff of 19k Physical Resist.
That makes the target "naked" and the 8k Ravage Health debuff will probably bypass any shield or Armor.

Perfect combo for a burst ambush kill !

We have to wait what ZOS comes up with for the DB poisons. Something else or Alchemy.

Saltypretzels

They have to scale the numbers back, those poisons would be too OP if they left them like that and just altered the target from you to the enemy.

wayfarerx

Saltypretzels wrote: »

They have to scale the numbers back, those poisons would be too OP if they left them like that and just altered the target from you to the enemy.

I think they would be okay if the snakeblood passive reduced the negative effects of other people's poisons on you, and it would have the added effect of making the worst passive in the game viable.

hrothbern

Saltypretzels wrote: »

They have to scale the numbers back, those poisons would be too OP if they left them like that and just altered the target from you to the enemy.

I agree

In their current figures the debuff potions are too OP.

For example:
In principle the debuff from an Alchemy poison potion on Physical Resist should not have a bigger effect than the buff from a positive Alchemy potion you use on yourself.

If I remember correctly the positive buff we get from the Alchemy potion on Physical Resist is the Major Resolve, NOT a value.

So if the Alchemy potions are used for the DB poisons, I expect that ZOS will change the values to the standard debuff of Major Fracture.

In that way it follows the balancing principle that there is for every buff a counter debuff of the same amount. And it will also follow the principle that you cannot stack two major buffs or debuffs.

dantheman1972

I have a big feeling that the health poison won't take any more health away from an enemy than a health potion. Also, poisons will most likely be able to counter any potion buff you have.

Just like red cp points counter blue cp points, poisons will counter potions. That would be the fairest way of doing it. But I fear that extra burst will bring ganking to a new level of [snip].

[Edit to remove censor bypass.]

hrothbern

dantheman1972 wrote: »

I have a big feeling that the health poison won't take any more health away from an enemy than a health potion. Also, poisons will most likely be able to counter any potion buff you have.

Just like red cp points counter blue cp points, poisons will counter potions. That would be the fairest way of doing it. But I fear that extra burst will bring ganking to a new level of [snip].

[Edit to remove censor bypass.]

extra burst will bring ganking to a new level

yeah, I think also

Fits nicely to the announced upgrade of IC in the coming DB DLC.

hrothbern

Another thought on the DB poison potion:

If it is so that the Alchemy poison potion has debuffs that cancel the Alchemy potion buffs of your target....

It is probably so that you cannot have both potions active at the same time.

So either you have a potion active to buff yourself
or you have a potion active to debuff your target

The remaining issue is:
How will the Alchemy passive Snakeblood play a role regarding enemy poison potions used on you?

I guess it cannot negate the debuff from the poison potion used on you
So perhaps it has no effect at all regarding enemy poison potions...

Robbmrp

They need to take the existing "potions" and turn them into "poisons" that can be applied to weapons. Then when your hit with said weapon, it applies the poison. It would work exactly like an enchant and lower with each hit you take. Eventually you would need to reapply the poison once it's worn off.

These should also SHOULD NOT STACK WITH ENCHANTS.... It's one or the other. You don't need a Flame Enchant and then have poison applied on top of that.

There's NO WAY that when my character drinks one of the below potions that a player I'm fighting is going to have their stamina/health/magicka drop in anyway.

hrothbern wrote: »

The "slow" poison potion against Stamina builds:


The Physical Resist debuff poison potion that Stamina build could use:


The Spell Resist debuff poison potion that Magicka builds could use:

dodgehopper_ESO

wayfarerx wrote: »

Saltypretzels wrote: »

They have to scale the numbers back, those poisons would be too OP if they left them like that and just altered the target from you to the enemy.

I think they would be okay if the snakeblood passive reduced the negative effects of other people's poisons on you, and it would have the added effect of making the worst passive in the game viable.

This was my thought exactly.

dodgehopper_ESO

hrothbern wrote: »

Another thought on the DB poison potion:

If it is so that the Alchemy poison potion has debuffs that cancel the Alchemy potion buffs of your target....

It is probably so that you cannot have both potions active at the same time.

So either you have a potion active to buff yourself
or you have a potion active to debuff your target

The remaining issue is:
How will the Alchemy passive Snakeblood play a role regarding enemy poison potions used on you?

I guess it cannot negate the debuff from the poison potion used on you
So perhaps it has no effect at all regarding enemy poison potions...

I think it would be great if snakeblood COULD mitigate the debuff. Not a 100% mitigation though. This is actually a similar reason why I wish the Reflect skills in the game were a percent chance, and not a 100% reflect.

emily3989

Any indication this is going to be an actual item to be used in pvp/pve openly? Could be just some potion you have to use to advance through the DB questline.

hrothbern

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Another thought on the DB poison potion:

If it is so that the Alchemy poison potion has debuffs that cancel the Alchemy potion buffs of your target....

It is probably so that you cannot have both potions active at the same time.

So either you have a potion active to buff yourself
or you have a potion active to debuff your target

The remaining issue is:
How will the Alchemy passive Snakeblood play a role regarding enemy poison potions used on you?

I guess it cannot negate the debuff from the poison potion used on you
So perhaps it has no effect at all regarding enemy poison potions...

I think it would be great if snakeblood COULD mitigate the debuff. Not a 100% mitigation though. This is actually a similar reason why I wish the Reflect skills in the game were a percent chance, and not a 100% reflect.

@dodgehopper_ESO ,
Yes, I agree that the Snakeblood passive should not be useless.

But IF the poison does for example:

1. a Major Fracture on Physical Resist
2. a Ravage Health of 10k

Assume for example that with 3 skill points in Snakeblood you get a 30% reduction of the negative effect.
That 30% can be apllied on the 10k Ravage Health, reducing that to 7k Ravage Health
But applying that 30% to Major Fracture ???
That would mess up the balancing principle of each other cancelling buffs and debuffs: Major Fracture is cancelled by Major Ward etc.

But on the other hand, in favor of a partial 30% reduction:
If you put 100 CP in the star Heavy Armor Focus you also get the value of Major Ward, and putting 30 CP in that star is possible. However... the weak point in that argumentation stays that that 5k resist possible at 100 CP is not defined as Major Ward.
Semantics....
But my guess stays that Snakeblood will NOT decrease the Major Fracture from a poison potion and only the stat pool debuffs.

Robbmrp wrote: »

They need to take the existing "potions" and turn them into "poisons" that can be applied to weapons. Then when your hit with said weapon, it applies the poison. It would work exactly like an enchant and lower with each hit you take. Eventually you would need to reapply the poison once it's worn off.

These should also SHOULD NOT STACK WITH ENCHANTS.... It's one or the other. You don't need a Flame Enchant and then have poison applied on top of that.

There's NO WAY that when my character drinks one of the below potions that a player I'm fighting is going to have their stamina/health/magicka drop in anyway.

@Robbmrp , you say: There's NO WAY that when my character drinks one of the below potions that a player I'm fighting is going to have their stamina/health/magicka drop in anyway.

I guess that the poison potion will be slotted in your Quick Slot, and if you push Q to activate, that activating is NOT drinking the potion, but applying the poison to your Weapon.

dodgehopper_ESO

I just had a thought. They could take it so far and have it like in previous games where you just drag and drop the item over the weapon being used. This would make it more of an opener, and generally more useful in pve DB missions. I suspect they're going to have the poison pants passive too.

Robbmrp

Robbmrp wrote: »

They need to take the existing "potions" and turn them into "poisons" that can be applied to weapons. Then when your hit with said weapon, it applies the poison. It would work exactly like an enchant and lower with each hit you take. Eventually you would need to reapply the poison once it's worn off.

These should also SHOULD NOT STACK WITH ENCHANTS.... It's one or the other. You don't need a Flame Enchant and then have poison applied on top of that.

There's NO WAY that when my character drinks one of the below potions that a player I'm fighting is going to have their stamina/health/magicka drop in anyway.

@Robbmrp , you say: There's NO WAY that when my character drinks one of the below potions that a player I'm fighting is going to have their stamina/health/magicka drop in anyway.

I guess that the poison potion will be slotted in your Quick Slot, and if you push Q to activate, that activating is NOT drinking the potion, but applying the poison to your Weapon.


[/quote]

That could work but it would still let you also enchant the weapon as well. Then it would make sense for there to be a timer on it like the pictures show.They either need to change the potion itself or update the tool tip as when YOU take a potion, it should NOT lower the users armor by 14k just to get a weapon power buff like the below mentions.

hrothbern wrote: »

The Spell Resist debuff poison potion that Magicka builds could use:

Regardless, it will be interesting to see how @ZOS handles the new changes and what we'll be able to do with them.

Robbmrp

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I just had a thought. They could take it so far and have it like in previous games where you just drag and drop the item over the weapon being used. This would make it more of an opener, and generally more useful in pve DB missions. I suspect they're going to have the poison pants passive too.

Yeah, but you'll be able to take a potion and clear that right up! Just like a trip to the Free Clinic!

GreenSoup2HoT

How would you apply a poison?

wayfarerx

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

How would you apply a poison?

Very carefully?

KanedaSyndrome

Poisons will probably be so nerfed that they won't be anymore useful than a weapon enchantment, that's my guess.

mr_wazzabi

KanedaSyndrome wrote: »

Poisons will probably be so nerfed that they won't be anymore useful than a weapon enchantment, that's my guess.

True. They have the opportunity to be REALLY REALLY OP. Especially if left alone as the current negative ravage potions.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

They are not scaling anything back if you look at the champion system they plan for all buffs to have an equal debuff.

Potions now have a debuff

Vangy

wayfarerx wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

How would you apply a poison?

Very carefully?

Hmm im just gona coat my weapon with this insanely OP deadly poison!

*applies poison to weapon*
Me: la la la la
*prick finger*
Me: Oh F*@&
2 seconds later--> X.X

Waseem

this doesnt sound good..
*whispers*: zergs will use it

hrothbern

On the PAX last weekend ZOS disclosed some further Info on DB poisons clarifying some explicit and implicit questions in this thread:

@Paulington , lots of thanks for writing out the info on the PAX
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/261597/pax-dark-brotherhood-round-table-transcript

"Q10: One of the things going into this update is poison making, what are the mechanics of poisons and could you give some examples?"

"RL: Yeah, so, poison making is an extension of alchemy. The way it works mechanically is that if you want to make a potion you use water but if you want to make a poison you use oil. So all the mixing and matching of various combinations are built into the system already. One of the things I'm really excited about is there are definite ways to start to drain resources from other players in PvP which changes the game play up a bit, so it's a really complex system."

"Q12: So, the mechanics of poison if you are playing a race with an innate resistance to poison is the player-owned poison going to be treated the same way as poison from a monster or will there be a reduction in the resistance as far as PvP?"

"RL: Umm, I don't know off the top of my head. I know that the snakeblood passive in the Alchemy line actually has an effect on poisons as well so my assumption is that it does but I haven't tested it personally. That's a question I can go back and ask Wrobel."

"Q18: Can you use poisons and potions at the same time? Or if I use a potion will I have to wait until my timer runs out to use a poison?"

"RL: Poisons are equipped in a different slot than in your quick slot."

"Q23: Okay, I guess a couple of poison related questions. First you had mentioned they are based on oils rather than waters, are the existing reagents still being used for that? Are there any additional passives? Is it going to be based on the old Skyrim where you poison a weapon? As long as that poison is equipped does it effect the use of that weapon?"

"RL: Yep, I am pretty sure there are additions to the Alchemy skill line.
JS: There is actually a new slot right next to your weapon and you equip it right into that slot and then as it processes the poison it takes the stacks.
JS: The way the setup is working is that there is an equip slot for Bar 1 and an equip slot for Bar 2 so you can have different poisons on each bar but it's there and it's equipped which is treated like equipment so you can't swap it over in combat.
JS: It's similar to the way weapon enchantments work now that the poison isn't hitting every single time but procs like an enchantment does."


"Q24: Can the poisons eventually be exhausted when they are equipped?"

"RL: Yep, the poisons have charges."

Ballzy321

Can't wait to see all the bow users in cyrodil after this especially if they stack with each other. I don't know out this

Ballzy321

Can u cleanse these poisons

hrothbern

Ballzy321 wrote: »

Can u cleanse these poisons

Good question.

I guess you cannot cleanse the immediate effects like Ravage Health,Magicka, Stamina
But I guess also that you could cleanse the duration debuff effects like "Slow" or Major Fractue.
However, because it seems that a poison potion causes several hits over time, like weapon enchants , see the PAX write up, I guess that cleansing will have a short duration

hrothbern

In general I see with the DB poisons an increase of DPS !

The defensive counter is the normal potion, which we already had.
You could therefore say that adding an offensive poison potion to the defensive potion makes the game more balanced.....
But the "new fact" is that the offensive poison potion is as of NOW an addition to the DPS

mariskaas

Will this be only for melee weapons and arrows? Shooting clouds of poison from staves seems a bit weird imo..

rotaugen454

It would be strange if they let you apply the potion to a specific weapon for use. Imagine if you had a level 1 bow that your VR16 had on their backbar (well, level 50 as VR is going away). Could you coat it with a potion that GIVES buffs, which you could shoot at others and actually make them stronger? Granted, it would be a strange use of the item, but I'm always looking for that "out of the box" usage for something.

emily3989

hrothbern wrote: »

In general I see with the DB poisons an increase of DPS !

The defensive counter is the normal potion, which we already had.
You could therefore say that adding an offensive poison potion to the defensive potion makes the game more balanced.....
But the "new fact" is that the offensive poison potion is as of NOW an addition to the DPS

But if you had 4-12 in a group - it probably would not stack anyway - I mean, can you poison something 4-12 times simultaneously? I am not sure how this would work, every dps in group would want to be the one using it, or would pre-attack before the tank pull so they could get the dps boost.

Solo would be beneficial, but who needs more dps to solo anything I this game?

PVP there are obvious advantages to use.

Laggus

Can't cleanse them when your dead!