Blocking magicka attacks

badmojo

Why doesn't blocking magickal attacks cost us magicka?

A master at swinging a sword also has the ability to block all sorts of magickal attacks, that doesn't seem right. It seems like magicka users should be the best at holding off magicka attacks, but they're vulnerable to brute force(stamina). And masters of stamina should be great at holding back physical attacks, but not so much against magicka.

(I know, I know, it would ruin your tank build, but I'm just throwing out game theory here, I'm not looking to ruin your build or make mine OP, just talking hypotheticals for the betterment of this game as a whole.)

Ajaxduo

Actually...that's quite interesting it's all most likely tied to stamina for the sake of balance though.

Forestd16b14_ESO

No that be a major nerf to tanks.... AGAIN and tanks, mitigation, blocking are the last thing in this game that needs nerfed...... again.

badmojo

Just because I suggest changing a mechanic of the game, doesn't mean it would result in a nerf to tanks, or unbalance the system. Obviously, like ANY change to the game, it would require additional balancing changes. I'm certainly not asking for a straight up nerf to tanks.

What I'm suggesting would be a change to the mechanics of combat, not the balance of it. Would it be a good thing if we had to read the combat and play to our strengths and avoid our vulnerabilities? Would it be so bad to have to consider what kind of attacks the enemy is wielding and respond to that?

Something like this wouldn't only effect the tanks either, it would be a big part of being an effective DPS, knowing who to attack and what to attack them with would make things more interesting than simply spamming your same routine of attacks at everything.

FriedEggSandwich

Magicka builds get magical wards to compensate for their lack of block. The op's suggestion just propagates the "blue and green magicka" issue. As it happens there are times when magicka users need to block in pvp, and stamina management on a magicka build takes some skill, which I like. Atm the weakness to a shield stacking sorc is their stamina pool. Can you imagine if this weakness was removed?

badmojo

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Magicka builds get magical wards to compensate for their lack of block. The op's suggestion just propagates the "blue and green magicka" issue. As it happens there are times when magicka users need to block in pvp, and stamina management on a magicka build takes some skill, which I like. Atm the weakness to a shield stacking sorc is their stamina pool. Can you imagine if this weakness was removed?

It's hard to keep shield stacking when you're spending magicka on blocking magicka attacks.

Edit: and why would the stamina weakness be removed? Stamina attacks would still drain that little bit of stamina.....

WillhelmBlack

Because you're using your arms to block a force coming against you. It tires your arms.

badmojo

I don't know, taking a fireball to the arms would do more than just tire them, unless maybe I had some magicakal force to resist and mitigate it with, like a reserve of magicka.

idk

I understand OPs thoughts but runs amoke with specific deliberate changes made in the game that brought this aspect of the game closer to where it should be.

When the game launched we could all block damage for days. We could tank in light armor. Some aspects of the game were just stupid silly.

Fortunately they have brought some (not much) sanity into the game. The light armor wearer still has good spell damage reduction, but cannot block (or dodge roll) for eternity. Out thin fabric of armor puts us more where we should be.

FortheloveofKrist

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Because you're using your arms to block a force coming against you. It tires your arms.

I just flew in from Cyrodiil, and boy are my arms tired!

Bah-dum Ching!

NewBlacksmurf

badmojo wrote: »

Why doesn't blocking magickal attacks cost us magicka?

A master at swinging a sword also has the ability to block all sorts of magickal attacks, that doesn't seem right. It seems like magicka users should be the best at holding off magicka attacks, but they're vulnerable to brute force(stamina). And masters of stamina should be great at holding back physical attacks, but not so much against magicka.

(I know, I know, it would ruin your tank build, but I'm just throwing out game theory here, I'm not looking to ruin your build or make mine OP, just talking hypotheticals for the betterment of this game as a whole.)

Generally speaking, blocking magic...depending upon what you're blocking costs life so I don't follow why it should cost magic too?

-Blocking arrows wouldn't cost arrows while shooting arrows doesn't always cost stamina.
-Attacking with a staff doesn't cost mana...it actually regens mana, so blocking shouldn't cost mana
-Blocking melee attacks uses stamina not because it uses mana to attack but because we literally know that is cause and effect.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

I understand OPs thoughts but runs amoke with specific deliberate changes made in the game that brought this aspect of the game closer to where it should be.

When the game launched we could all block damage for days. We could tank in light armor. Some aspects of the game were just stupid silly.

Fortunately they have brought some (not much) sanity into the game. The light armor wearer still has good spell damage reduction, but cannot block (or dodge roll) for eternity. Out thin fabric of armor puts us more where we should be.

.... what game are you playing ? Your thin fabrics gives you divine level spell damage and divine level defense (damage shields).

Miszou

Actually, this could be done really easily by just increasing physical/magical resistances proportional to stamina/magicka pool - just as damage is increased according to the pool size already.

It would certainly add a much more interesting dynamic to builds, other than the basic "stack magicka/stamina and do dps" meta that is so common.

Hybrid builds would suddenly become a lot more common...

Recremen

Every magical attack I can think of follows the exact same format as a physical attack: It must travel to the target whereupon its energy interacts with that of the receiving body. As such, interposing some other body between sender and intended receiver should affect the net energy reaching the target.

badmojo

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

Why doesn't blocking magickal attacks cost us magicka?

A master at swinging a sword also has the ability to block all sorts of magickal attacks, that doesn't seem right. It seems like magicka users should be the best at holding off magicka attacks, but they're vulnerable to brute force(stamina). And masters of stamina should be great at holding back physical attacks, but not so much against magicka.

(I know, I know, it would ruin your tank build, but I'm just throwing out game theory here, I'm not looking to ruin your build or make mine OP, just talking hypotheticals for the betterment of this game as a whole.)

Generally speaking, blocking magic...depending upon what you're blocking costs life so I don't follow why it should cost magic too?

-Blocking arrows wouldn't cost arrows while shooting arrows doesn't always cost stamina.
-Attacking with a staff doesn't cost mana...it actually regens mana, so blocking shouldn't cost mana
-Blocking melee attacks uses stamina not because it uses mana to attack but because we literally know that is cause and effect.

If I heavy attack with some daggers I gain stamina, but it costs the person I'm attacking stamina if they block my attack.

I propose that if we heavy attack with a staff, it gains us magicka, but if the person being hit blocks the attack it costs them magicka. Currently it costs stamina to block the attack.

The idea is that if you want to block every attack coming at you, you will end up with no stamina or magicka. Currently there is no effective way for a player to drain your magicka pool, everything drains stamina. It seems like a flaw in a game that encourages players to build towards either resource or create a hybrid of the two.

The problem with the current setup, is that if ZOS makes stamina & magicka attacks exactly balanced with each other, then stamina builds are king by default. You can neglect magicka in this game, with virtually no repercussions, but you certainly can't do that with stamina, if you neglect stamina or neglect to manage what little stamina you have properly, you will have a bad time. Why is that system of resource management not applied to magicka? On a stamina build magicka is like a cherry on your already delicious cake, you never really worry about it, running magicka dry on stamina builds won't get you killed.

MasterSpatula

No, it doesn't make sense. And yes, making it make sense would nerf tanks.

TheDarkShadow

In the cinematic trailer the Breton NB use a shield to block a spell from that High Elf chick, he doesn't use any magic.

Miszou

MasterSpatula wrote: »

No, it doesn't make sense. And yes, making it make sense would nerf tanks.

No it wouldn't.

If your stamina and magicka stat pools also granted resistance as well as damage, tanks would naturally shift to a more hybrid position, while all the glass cannons would have a huge vulnerability to deal with.

Stamina builds would be vulnerable to magic, and magicka builds would get rekt by stamina attacks.

Hybrids would be tanky, but without much damage.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Miszou wrote: »

Actually, this could be done really easily by just increasing physical/magical resistances proportional to stamina/magicka pool - just as damage is increased according to the pool size already.

It would certainly add a much more interesting dynamic to builds, other than the basic "stack magicka/stamina and do dps" meta that is so common.

Hybrid builds would suddenly become a lot more common...

Uh sorry no it would just mean only tanks have to be hybrid builds because stamina DPS players have rolling and magic DPS players have damage shields which as mostly every one knows by now are far better of a defense option than relining on resistance and mitigation. Tanks need stamina to block and health to stay alive so more often than not tanks tend to have high stamina and health but forcing them to pool stuff in magicka (or stamina cause magical tanks are apparently a thing) would take away from their defenses for what ? A small reduction in damage that means nothing when you have hundreds of small damages coming at them and as most know numbers kill. Zergs cough cough.

So sorry but that along with the entire thread would be a nerf to tanks period no if, and, or, but, L2P will change that.

Vangy

badmojo wrote: »

Why doesn't blocking magickal attacks cost us magicka?

A master at swinging a sword also has the ability to block all sorts of magickal attacks, that doesn't seem right. It seems like magicka users should be the best at holding off magicka attacks, but they're vulnerable to brute force(stamina). And masters of stamina should be great at holding back physical attacks, but not so much against magicka.

(I know, I know, it would ruin your tank build, but I'm just throwing out game theory here, I'm not looking to ruin your build or make mine OP, just talking hypotheticals for the betterment of this game as a whole.)

1. Do you really want to receive the no magicka regen while blocking treatment that stamina has suffered if you could block with magicka?

2. How do we implement this without screwing over stam builds that are much more reliant on block? (since most of them dont have shields) Most stam builds run about 10k-12k magicka.

Hymzir

badmojo wrote: »

Why doesn't blocking magickal attacks cost us magicka?

Because that's the way the game was originally designed. Your idea would've worked just as well, but retrofitting it, into the jumble of game mechanics we have these days, would not be easy. But then again, the original game mechanics have been mangled to such a degree, that a full rework is in order anyway. What you propose, however, might be one way to prevent one stat stacking which has become the norm.

In the original version of this game, soft caps ensured that there was a practical limit to how much you could stack any stat. Thus you were forced, by default, to hybridize your build to some degree. Furthermore, all class skills were originally magicka based, and thus the assumption was that every build would use magicka as their primary ability base. Weapon skills would then be used to augment the build or to specialize in a particular style of combat. (Ranged, melee, defensive.) Stamina was primarily there to provide combat utility i.e. mobility, dodger rolls and break free actions.

A lot of people did not like that design however - they wanted their sword wielders and assassins to rely on non magic based abilities. Back in beta I tried to run around as a fully stamina based character and it did not work. So when the game launched I went with a magicka based character isntead, since it was obviously what the game expected you to do.

But that did lead to the era of skirt wearing double staff wielding tanks that dominated everything. Going light armor and staffs was just tons better than anything else. So they begun to buff stamina based abilities. Reduced their cost to compensate for the fact that stamina skills share a pool with all those utility functions. They also started offering stamina morphs for class skills. And offering more gear set bonuses made it easier to stack stats. (Remember, back in the day, gear sets did not give 4 buffs. most gave 1 at 2 pieces and a second at 5 pieces. So stacking stats was not as easy as it is these days.) And finally, the removal of soft caps and the introduction of CP system removed any incentive whatsoever to have a hybrid build. You pick a stat and then stack that as highs as you can. Yet the basic game mechanics are based on the assumption that you are going for a hybrid build.

And that's where we are today... The tweaks introduced to the system are all due to them changing the game towards a mode it was never designed to support. The core mechanics was a hybrid system, but today it's all about single stat stacking. And thus a stamina build is hampered by the fact that their resource is shared by their primary attack abilities and by all those combat utility functions, but at the same time, they can stack stamina, along with stamina recovery, to such ridiculous levels that they were able to block all day long or dodge roll from one edge of Cyrodiil to the other nonstop. And that's from where those band aid fixes of cumulative dodge roll cost and no stamina recovery while blocking originate.

On the plus side though, a stamina build can mostly ignore magicka, maybe add 1 utility function one their back bar as a magicka dumb and be done with it, while magicka builds cannot ignore stamina. All those important combat utility functions still rely on your stamina pool, and once your stamina is gone, you are toast. A stamina build with no magicka, however, will suffer next to none adverse effects.

Finally, all these tweaks and changes, bending the original game design towards a mode it was not made for, result in an overall balance that keeps swinging back and forth between magicka and stamina, depending on what part of the mechanics they tweaked last. Moving some of the combat utility functions away from stamina, and placing them under magicka, might work, but it's not something the game was designed for, and would 'prolly break things even more. But the idea itself is sound, it just means that to implement it, the whole system would need to be resigned. But then again, as I noted earlier, that's what the game needs anyway, so why not go with something like that then?

badmojo

Great post Hymzir, sums it up quite nicely. The game wasn't designed to be balanced symmetrically, but since that's the direction they seem to be taking it, they might as well take it all the way.