Idea for Heavy Armor: Massive mitigation increase but prohibit dodge roll and sneak!

spoqster

If balanced right a change like that could make heavy armor more interesting to use by buffing it in numbers and countering that buff on the mechanics level. Especially in PvP this could lead to interesting new strategies and tactics.

As my experience with this forum is that 90% of the feedback is negative, I would like actively encourage anyone to be negative and pick this idea apart. Only through constructive criticism can an idea be turned into a workable concept.

hammayolettuce

Basic question for you; if you can't sneak then how will you pvp? Sneak has such an insane tactical advantage how do you plan on defending keeps or getting the jump on your enemy?

LorDrek

Need 4 source, boost from heavy armor/1h&s mre bloks, from mediem armor, mor dodge, sprint, speed, magicka have cloak, port, dmg shield. It is easy.

hammayolettuce

LorDrek wrote: »

Need 4 source, boost from heavy armor/1h&s mre bloks, from mediem armor, mor dodge, sprint, speed, magicka have cloak, port, dmg shield. It is easy.

Only 2 classes have access to class mobility and only one of those two has access to cloak. That's not a feasible option. I'm all for buffing heavy armor, but not allowing the user to dodge roll or stealth just simply won't work.

Fat_Cat45

They need to lower the armor values for light/medium armors, lower the amount of phsyical/spell resist for the major buff, and add more armor on to heavy.

Current stats for armor (v15 white)

Heavy Chest - 2,388
Medium Chest - 1,796
Light Chest - 1,204

I feel like light should give 1/3 instead of 1/2, and medium should give 1/2 instead of 3/4.

With each patch there are more and more ways to gain armor and spell resist, such as Armor Master, Pariah, Champion Points, Champion Point tiers like 75% more shield armor, and others.

Impenetrable is so strong in PvP as well, possibly reduce the effectiveness of Impenetrable and compensate the cut difference by adding it to an existing heavy armor passive.

hrothbern

spoqster wrote: »

If balanced right a change like that could make heavy armor more interesting to use by buffing it in numbers and countering that buff on the mechanics level. Especially in PvP this could lead to interesting new strategies and tactics.

As my experience with this forum is that 90% of the feedback is negative, I would like actively encourage anyone to be negative and pick this idea apart. Only through constructive criticism can an idea be turned into a workable concept.

Adding such an element to PVP of super mitigation, balanced by a strong decrease escape/avoidance/mobility is one discussion.
AND an interesting one

That strategic/tactical addition could also be achieved by an Armor set 5 piece bonus.
and that's more simple
and you do not get drawn in the HA discussion, which will likely get very confusing.

And ofc, I heartily welcome any post that is supporting the general opinion that "something" must be improved on HA

Forestd16b14_ESO

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/225175/heavy-armor-needs-buffed-already#latest

*clears throat*

CaptainBeerDude

You can't take sneak and dodge roll away entirely. I would be in favour of an increased cost though. And I also think it would require further block cost reductions.

Miszou

Remove dodge roll? You're kidding, right?

Just because I tank in heavy armor (oh, no! What a weirdo scrub noobasaurus loser trololol!), doesn't mean I want to take every hit. Sometimes it's just more prudent to move.

starkerealm

Miszou wrote: »

Remove dodge roll? You're kidding, right?

Just because I tank in heavy armor (oh, no! What a weirdo scrub noobasaurus loser trololol!), doesn't mean I want to take every hit. Sometimes it's just more prudent to move.

I get the impression that the idea is to make heavy armor characters just soak off all the abuse.

Which... Okay, fine. But this would lead to either another horribly broken build, or it would make heavy even more useless.

Personofsecrets

No

starkerealm

Here's the thing for me on this. I really like the idea of heavy armor fundamentally changing the way the game plays. I just don't think this is the right solution.

Ampnode

I'm sorry, but no dodgerolling and no sneaking is probably one of the worst things I've heard somebody suggest for anything in ESO...

CP5

The game is built heavily around players being able to dodge roll in combat, and pvp heavily favors sneaking. If heavy armor were to penalize these the buff would have to be on the verge of overpowered. Anything less, and next to no one would use it anymore.

starkerealm

Also, the legitimate question: what do you do with hybrid armor loadouts?

spoqster

Miszou wrote: »

Remove dodge roll? You're kidding, right?

Just because I tank in heavy armor (oh, no! What a weirdo scrub noobasaurus loser trololol!), doesn't mean I want to take every hit. Sometimes it's just more prudent to move.

I try to avoid as much damage as possible while tanking, but let's face it, roll dodging with my fully geared up heavy armor tank, makes me squirm a little every time.

starkerealm

spoqster wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Remove dodge roll? You're kidding, right?

Just because I tank in heavy armor (oh, no! What a weirdo scrub noobasaurus loser trololol!), doesn't mean I want to take every hit. Sometimes it's just more prudent to move.

I try to avoid as much damage as possible while tanking, but let's face it, roll dodging with my fully geared up heavy armor tank, makes me squirm a little every time.

To be fair, roll dodging is basically an entertainment media thing. Actually doing that in any kind of real combat would get you killed.

spoqster

CP5 wrote: »

The game is built heavily around players being able to dodge roll in combat, and pvp heavily favors sneaking. If heavy armor were to penalize these the buff would have to be on the verge of overpowered. Anything less, and next to no one would use it anymore.

Yes, that was the idea. I would even throw in 100% crit resistance, so that heavy armored knigths can't be critted. These players should feel like bosses: You need multiple players (or a siege hit) to kill them and they hit like a truck (but only close range - heavy armor buffs melee damage), but they can't ever get away or sneak up on you.

It builds a little on Wrobels idea of the templar's house. I know everyone is making fun of him for saying that, but that's only because templars don't have a strong house at the moment. In general his idea of having these fundamentally different playstyles is interesting. Templars are already fine in the support role, they get a lot of AP ticks and everyone wants them around, but they suck at pretty much everything else (unless they are played extremely well). This could bring a paladin build to the game, maybe link the 100% crit resistance to a templar passive, to give templars something unique just like sorcs and nbs have with streak and cloak.

LadyNalcarya

starkerealm wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Remove dodge roll? You're kidding, right?

Just because I tank in heavy armor (oh, no! What a weirdo scrub noobasaurus loser trololol!), doesn't mean I want to take every hit. Sometimes it's just more prudent to move.

I try to avoid as much damage as possible while tanking, but let's face it, roll dodging with my fully geared up heavy armor tank, makes me squirm a little every time.

To be fair, roll dodging is basically an entertainment media thing. Actually doing that in any kind of real combat would get you killed.

In real world, heavy attacks do not restore stamina and swinging your sword and shiled randomly would also get you killed ^^

Seriously though, removing sneak and rooldodge will nerf heavy armor even further. Even in pve tanks sometimes need to get their butts out of red

spoqster

starkerealm wrote: »

Also, the legitimate question: what do you do with hybrid armor loadouts?

Very good question. The idea is very young in my mind, so I don't have an answer. Maybe couple the immense mitigation to a new 7pc passive: "Protection: Your armor fits neatly and protects your whole body from attacks. You gain 20k armor. Your armor is restrictive and noisy. The cost of dodge roll is increased by 300% and you lose the ability to sneak."

This is just food for thought and obviously not compatible with the existing passives.

spoqster

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Remove dodge roll? You're kidding, right?

Just because I tank in heavy armor (oh, no! What a weirdo scrub noobasaurus loser trololol!), doesn't mean I want to take every hit. Sometimes it's just more prudent to move.

I try to avoid as much damage as possible while tanking, but let's face it, roll dodging with my fully geared up heavy armor tank, makes me squirm a little every time.

To be fair, roll dodging is basically an entertainment media thing. Actually doing that in any kind of real combat would get you killed.

In real world, heavy attacks do not restore stamina and swinging your sword and shiled randomly would also get you killed ^^

Seriously though, removing sneak and rooldodge will nerf heavy armor even further. Even in pve tanks sometimes need to get their butts out of red

Shooting meteors from the sky inside a cave is also not dramatically realistic, and this game never should be. But looking to real life is usually good guidance for balanced game design. After all humans have been "balancing" their war machine for the past 3000 years.

Good that you mention pve. I can see this change positively affecting pve if it were coupled to other changes, such as making mobs and bosses hit harder. Currently the dps players are the most important part of a group, as they can mow everything down if they are good enough and with a few blocks, rolls and a bit of sustain they can survive many encounters long enough to nuke them down. With harder hitting opponents, tanks would be more important again and everyone would be happy to have them aboard and more people will want to play tank because they will enjoy the feeling of being the most important member of the group.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch

I don't see why HA users need to accept a nerf to get a buff.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »

I don't see why HA users need to accept a nerf to get a buff.

They don't heavy armor needs nothing but buffs. Like his heart is in the right place ideas not so much.

Egonieser

spoqster wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

The game is built heavily around players being able to dodge roll in combat, and pvp heavily favors sneaking. If heavy armor were to penalize these the buff would have to be on the verge of overpowered. Anything less, and next to no one would use it anymore.

Yes, that was the idea. I would even throw in 100% crit resistance, so that heavy armored knigths can't be critted. These players should feel like bosses: You need multiple players (or a siege hit) to kill them and they hit like a truck (but only close range - heavy armor buffs melee damage), but they can't ever get away or sneak up on you.

It builds a little on Wrobels idea of the templar's house. I know everyone is making fun of him for saying that, but that's only because templars don't have a strong house at the moment. In general his idea of having these fundamentally different playstyles is interesting. Templars are already fine in the support role, they get a lot of AP ticks and everyone wants them around, but they suck at pretty much everything else (unless they are played extremely well). This could bring a paladin build to the game, maybe link the 100% crit resistance to a templar passive, to give templars something unique just like sorcs and nbs have with streak and cloak.

I actually dig that. But if it would be as powerful as you describe, one should not also be allowed to gapclose. If you are armoured to the teeth swinging heavy flails and wear a tower shield, you should be far too heavy to dash forward with tremendous speed. Then I agree, give them godmode status, but ONLY in melee range with no speed bonus capabilities and gapclosers.

Actually come to think of it, reminds me a bit of LoTRO session play in PvP zones where at any given time, one player from each side could play a boss-character in PvP, which had 10x health than any player, very large amount of direct damage, but exactly as you describe - lacked mobility, was targeted by every tom *** and jones, but they were good for smoking out people and busting up large zerg groups and basically act like massive bullet sponges - when played alone - not really useful, but as a support for your raid for front line combat - ideal.

spoqster

Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »

I don't see why HA users need to accept a nerf to get a buff.

What if I throw in a significant buff for weapon damage on melee weapons with full heavy armor and a 100% crit resistance for full heavy armor templars, will that soften your heart for yielding dodge roll and sneak? :-)

spoqster

Egonieser wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

The game is built heavily around players being able to dodge roll in combat, and pvp heavily favors sneaking. If heavy armor were to penalize these the buff would have to be on the verge of overpowered. Anything less, and next to no one would use it anymore.

Yes, that was the idea. I would even throw in 100% crit resistance, so that heavy armored knigths can't be critted. These players should feel like bosses: You need multiple players (or a siege hit) to kill them and they hit like a truck (but only close range - heavy armor buffs melee damage), but they can't ever get away or sneak up on you.

It builds a little on Wrobels idea of the templar's house. I know everyone is making fun of him for saying that, but that's only because templars don't have a strong house at the moment. In general his idea of having these fundamentally different playstyles is interesting. Templars are already fine in the support role, they get a lot of AP ticks and everyone wants them around, but they suck at pretty much everything else (unless they are played extremely well). This could bring a paladin build to the game, maybe link the 100% crit resistance to a templar passive, to give templars something unique just like sorcs and nbs have with streak and cloak.

I actually dig that. But if it would be as powerful as you describe, one should not also be allowed to gapclose. If you are armoured to the teeth swinging heavy flails and wear a tower shield, you should be far too heavy to dash forward with tremendous speed. Then I agree, give them godmode status, but ONLY in melee range with no speed bonus capabilities and gapclosers.

Actually come to think of it, reminds me a bit of LoTRO session play in PvP zones where at any given time, one player from each side could play a boss-character in PvP, which had 10x health than any player, very large amount of direct damage, but exactly as you describe - lacked mobility, was targeted by every tom *** and jones, but they were good for smoking out people and busting up large zerg groups and basically act like massive bullet sponges - when played alone - not really useful, but as a support for your raid for front line combat - ideal.

Nice thoughts! I'm not sure how disabling gap closers could be implemented with the existing skill trees, but that could be figured out.

At the heart my idea is about adding more tactical elements to the game. PvE would be more tank-reliant, and who knows what strategies people will come up with in PvP. A group of super tanks would be a strong force, but should be very weak against siege weapons, due to their lack of mobility. Also a group of battle mages or archers could deal massive amounts of damage. So the immobile super tanks would only be strong if combined with a group of stealthed units hidden in the vicinity or ranged units and agile fighters.

I switched over to console briefly when it was launched and played a lot of PvP there. No one had CPs in the first weeks and everyone was below lvl 50 and in Blackwater. Back then it actually took a few people and an ultimate to take down a resource. Good leaders would assign these resources, and a good mix of classes was beneficial for the group. Now with the age of nuke everything down with tons of CP, the game could use a few new tactical elements. And come to think of it, it would do the game good, if the 500 CPlers would get some boss-like player opponents to grind their teeth on.

starkerealm

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Remove dodge roll? You're kidding, right?

Just because I tank in heavy armor (oh, no! What a weirdo scrub noobasaurus loser trololol!), doesn't mean I want to take every hit. Sometimes it's just more prudent to move.

I try to avoid as much damage as possible while tanking, but let's face it, roll dodging with my fully geared up heavy armor tank, makes me squirm a little every time.

To be fair, roll dodging is basically an entertainment media thing. Actually doing that in any kind of real combat would get you killed.

In real world, heavy attacks do not restore stamina and swinging your sword and shiled randomly would also get you killed ^^

It's a fair point.

Speely

Call me crazy, but if the mitigation were increased substantially, I would not miss dodge roll or sneak AT ALL. We would need to dodge roll less (even out of red in PvE) and in PvP HA users would have to adapt to a no-sneak dynamic, fostering more variance in the methods by which players engaged in battle. Combining insane mitigation with 100% visibility provides for some interesting possibilities.

I REALLY like the idea as long as HA provided a LOT more mitigation (a lot) than other armors and perhaps got a buff to Constitution to make resource recovery a bit more sensible.

phillyboy7897

Great post man these are similar to a lot of my thoughts about the game.

Everything is getting homogenized.

Have a damage shield, wear light armor, hit prox, make a damage burst. Streak or sneak away. 80% of Cyrodiil there.

Or ball group.

There is dps or heals there is no real tank. The triangle is not complete.

The only way to tank is to get aggro, have major expedition and sprint and kite people. The damage is too high with no reliable mitigation. Everything get penetrated and the tooltips are too insane.

Something should change with this.

The Templar house can be real vs up to 8 players with sweeps and devouring swarm btw. I can Tell u that

phillyboy7897

But the house lasts for only 5 seconds atm

starkerealm

Speely wrote: »

Call me crazy, but if the mitigation were increased substantially, I would not miss dodge roll or sneak AT ALL. We would need to dodge roll less (even out of red in PvE) and in PvP HA users would have to adapt to a no-sneak dynamic, fostering more variance in the methods by which players engaged in battle. Combining insane mitigation with 100% visibility provides for some interesting possibilities.

I REALLY like the idea as long as HA provided a LOT more mitigation (a lot) than other armors and perhaps got a buff to Constitution to make resource recovery a bit more sensible.

If I remember, the mitigation hardcap is at 50%. No matter what you do, you cannot get over that.

So... here's a thought...

Perk

+2.5%/+5% maximum damage mitigation per piece of Heavy Armor equipped. (This would cap at +35% with seven pieces).
-2.5%/-5% roll dodge distance per piece of Heavy Armor equipped (Caps at -35% roll distance).

---

Perk 2

+5%/+10%/+15% Physical resistance per piece of Heavy Armor equipped (Caps at +105%.)
+2%/+4%/+6% Stamina costs from crouching per piece of Heavy Armor equipped (sneaking). (Should cap at +42% stealth stamina consumption.)