In a way, ZoS has given us what we wanted this patch. (I'm attempting optimism)

KenaPKK

It's a shortcut, backwards kind of way, but at least they're listening. They made an attempt. I assume they didn't go through with our requests in full because of lack of manpower or PvP not being a priority. Lots of work still needs to be done, but at least we have these...

"ZoS, AoE caps are protecting baddy zergs!"

Ok, well we aren't removing the AoE caps, but we'll give everyone proxy det and put this new Vicious Death set in your Rewards of the Worthy. Oh, and here are some siege buffs.

"We need dynamic ulti regen back so that individuals and small groups can fight the baddy zergs!"

That isn't happening either, but we'll give everyone Combat Frenzy and this new Tava's Favor crafted set. Just equip a dodge chance spell, and the more people shooting things at you, the more ult you get!

ZoS, healing is getting way out of hand.

Hmmm this one's tricky. Ah, screw it. Funnel Health and Breath of Life will only affect one ally now, and we created Fasalla's Guile to halve healing of anyone who hits your tanks.

~~~~~

I still believe that there are many design flaws with this game that prevent it from reaching its massive potential, including some of the features mentioned above, but I am thankful that we at least have the tools which ZoS gave us in this patch. We'd be a whole lot worse off without them considering ZoS isn't changing the core problems at this time.

Wollust

Bandaid fixes everywhere

Sallington

Wollust wrote: »

Bandaid fixes everywhere

Every damn time.

"What should be the response for a call to remove AOE caps?"

"I don't know. Think we should should triple the people that have access to the most popular AOE in Cyrodil? Maybe make meteor have no weakness?"

"Sure sounds good to me. Now, back to work on Dark Brotherhood."


I feel like people are trying to see it as a glass half full kind of thing, when the glass is clearly only filled 1/4 of the way.

HoloYoitsu

I mean....I guess I wanted another 50+ bugs, sure.

Morozov

zZzleepyhead

Implementing sets is the new way to avoid fixing game mechanics.

Solid

Nafirian

Temporary lazy fixes not actual working with the PVP Community, its nice ye but its lazy if nothing else.

_adhyffbjjjf12

it takes a normal developer what 1 day to maybe 2 weeks max to get to the source of any problem given basic logging tools (i've been a enterprise developer for 20 years so i've got a reasonable feel for it). The fact is the developers know exactly what the problems are after a year+. They know what the problems are, and they cant fix them, that means either investment in hardware is being withheld or the issues would require a fundamental redesign of the software architecture including third party software that they do not want to invest in. This is the truth I suspect, poor short term planning for such a great IP., sad

_adhyffbjjjf12

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

it takes a normal developer what 1 day to maybe 2 weeks max to get to the source of any problem given basic logging tools (i've been a enterprise developer for 20 years so i've got a reasonable feel for it). The fact is the developers know exactly what the problems are after a year+. They know what the problems are, and they cant fix them, that means either investment in hardware is being withheld or the issues would require a fundamental redesign of the software architecture including third party software that they do not want to invest in. This is the truth I suspect, poor short term planning for such a great IP., sad

As for a benchmark, GW2 WVW is busier and does not have the issues ESO has, and many many MMO shooters equally have no issues. The only way this problem will get fixed is if the player base ignores the excuses and misdirection and demands that action be taken.

themdogesbite

So i see we have arrived at stage 3. Just depression and acceptance left now.

_adhyffbjjjf12

Everyone should post every day 1 post stating the following : 'The PVP performance is not acceptable, I will not purchase anything in the shop until rectified' Like the old fashioned workers strike, this would eventually bite imo. Lets say theres 100k regular players, imagine the impact if we had 100k posts

_adhyffbjjjf12

i will start the ball rolling.


The PVP performance is not acceptable, I will not purchase anything in the shop until rectified

Thelon

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

I will not purchase anything in the shop

I failed senpei. I bought a dress this morning that barely covers my unmentionables

_adhyffbjjjf12

lol

timidobserver

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

it takes a normal developer what 1 day to maybe 2 weeks max to get to the source of any problem given basic logging tools (i've been a enterprise developer for 20 years so i've got a reasonable feel for it). The fact is the developers know exactly what the problems are after a year+. They know what the problems are, and they cant fix them, that means either investment in hardware is being withheld or the issues would require a fundamental redesign of the software architecture including third party software that they do not want to invest in. This is the truth I suspect, poor short term planning for such a great IP., sad

As for a benchmark, GW2 WVW is busier and does not have the issues ESO has, and many many MMO shooters equally have no issues. The only way this problem will get fixed is if the player base ignores the excuses and misdirection and demands that action be taken.

Anyone that played gw2 at launch knows that they had similar server issues on the T1 worlds and it took them a long time to get it worked out.

Enraged_Tiki_Torch

Thing is NOBODY asked for Vicious Death and Proxy to be buffed. Healing wasn't an issue either aside from the fact that abilities like BoL were lazy heals and didn't require the player to have much awareness to what was going on.

I don't think Dynamic Ultimate will ever return which is a good thing. You have to consider the changes that will have on not only small group PvP, but all PvP and sometimes PvE. I am neutral on the idea of a small group that wants to try to take down a larger 30 man zerg, but that is not reason enough to bring back a broken mechanic. You know that *** we had where DKs were spamming Standards, and Vampires were spamming Bats was ***.

The common counter is they should of fixed broken builds that exploited this. It really isn't that simple. One tactic they could of employed is increasing the cost of all Ultimates across the board. Very likely and well you can think that one out and see how it ruins the use of Ultimates for everyone else who isn't exploiting Dynamic Ult.

What they have in place is balanced. Nobody has an advantage which is the way Ultimate should work.

zyk

Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »

Thing is NOBODY asked for Vicious Death and Proxy to be buffed. Healing wasn't an issue either aside from the fact that abilities like BoL were lazy heals and didn't require the player to have much awareness to what was going on.

Actually, a lot of players wanted to see proxy changed the way it was. There was also a lot of public feedback that heals were too strong and healing too easy.

But that's irrelevant to me. It's easy to delude ourselves into thinking we, the players, have all the answers. When we make an observation or have an idea that our peers support, our opinions can get legs and seem to be _the answer_. This kind of thing happens in all enthusiast communities. Everyone thinks they can design a better car/drone/game/whatever.

Collectively, we are all Homer Simpson and the game we would design together would be a lot like the car Homer designed. That's not to say every idea is bad, but good products never come from a democratic process other than voting with dollars.

The solution isn't giving us exactly what we ask for. Cyrodiil will only be fixed if ZOS chooses to allocate the necessary resources to it. We need good devs with good ideas who are focused on ESO PVP. We need direction from execs to prioritize both client and server performance issues. And so on. Without those things, ESO PVP will never improve.

Muizer

Sallington wrote: »

"What should be the response for a call to remove AOE caps?"

The sensible response is to try to address the problem (unstoppable zergs), not to unthinkingly implement a proposed solution (remove AoE caps).

Not saying they came up with a better solution. I think introducing powerful abilities to address balance problems is pretty much a contradictio in terminis, but that doesn't mean AoE cap removal would have been successful.

_adhyffbjjjf12

timidobserver wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

it takes a normal developer what 1 day to maybe 2 weeks max to get to the source of any problem given basic logging tools (i've been a enterprise developer for 20 years so i've got a reasonable feel for it). The fact is the developers know exactly what the problems are after a year+. They know what the problems are, and they cant fix them, that means either investment in hardware is being withheld or the issues would require a fundamental redesign of the software architecture including third party software that they do not want to invest in. This is the truth I suspect, poor short term planning for such a great IP., sad

As for a benchmark, GW2 WVW is busier and does not have the issues ESO has, and many many MMO shooters equally have no issues. The only way this problem will get fixed is if the player base ignores the excuses and misdirection and demands that action be taken.

Anyone that played gw2 at launch knows that they had similar server issues on the T1 worlds and it took them a long time to get it worked out.

they did, it took nearly a year to sort the issues out.

sadownik

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

it takes a normal developer what 1 day to maybe 2 weeks max to get to the source of any problem given basic logging tools (i've been a enterprise developer for 20 years so i've got a reasonable feel for it). The fact is the developers know exactly what the problems are after a year+. They know what the problems are, and they cant fix them, that means either investment in hardware is being withheld or the issues would require a fundamental redesign of the software architecture including third party software that they do not want to invest in. This is the truth I suspect, poor short term planning for such a great IP., sad

As for a benchmark, GW2 WVW is busier and does not have the issues ESO has, and many many MMO shooters equally have no issues. The only way this problem will get fixed is if the player base ignores the excuses and misdirection and demands that action be taken.

Anyone that played gw2 at launch knows that they had similar server issues on the T1 worlds and it took them a long time to get it worked out.

they did, it took nearly a year to sort the issues out.

It took the exactly 7 months to finally cave in and introduce culling system. This solved not the lag, because the lag was absolutely nothing like in ESO in populated campaign but the poor performance on weaker machines.

_adhyffbjjjf12

yup

Enraged_Tiki_Torch

@zyk I don't think people wanted Proxy to be used the same way it was being used. Think people just want to have meaningful fights and not people hitting Proxy running to the largest group of people to get kills. Sure, proxy is "weaker" for a large group using it to kill a single or small group of people but still effective. Really hasn't changed there but it is 10x better at solo bombing groups and that was my point.

The rest of your post I agree. Sharing ideas is great. It is what a gaming community should be about. ZoS should be wise to recognize all the free intern workers they have here posting their ideas. The issue is sometimes ideas lose the scope of the bigger picture which is something ZoS has to consider. It's not that I think they intentionally ignore us, an idea they may like still has to be scrutinized by the game designers. They ultimately make the call.

Right now, I think ZoS needs to communicate more. And I think it's needs to be more than just a ESO live response. What @Sypher did with his "We are ESO" podcast is something they should of engaged in. Especially the episodes they intended. By not doing so, they let the podcast dive into becoming more toxic ever episode. An opportunity missed especially the episode Rich attended cause he is probably the guy making the final call. Fengrush claims they talked after the show, but a public back and forth discussion is really what ZOS needs to pull the PvP community back behind the game.

Instead we are left with conspiracy theories about why Cyrodiil is not meeting it's players standards.

I will say this, BWB doesn't have these issues. Since 1.6, I rarely go into a vet campaign anymore because of how bad it is. That sux.

JaJaLuka

I have been wondering lately if it's because ZoS' current development team can't fix what the previous employees coded; so they fall back on the only thing they can and create 'work arounds' to the issues.

zyk

JaJaLuka wrote: »

I have been wondering lately if it's because ZoS' current development team can't fix what the previous employees coded; so they fall back on the only thing they can and create 'work arounds' to the issues.

Of course ZOS can fix Cyrodiil. We *know* this because Cyrodiil has worked with different parameters. The popular example is BWB.

Many of the problems can be largely solved without touching a line of server code by changing gameplay. Server processing lag is caused by player activities. Game designers, through a variety of methods, can ensure those scenarios rarely or never manifest.

Cyrodiil isn't broken because ZOS can't possibly figure it out. Cyrodiil is broken because ZOS is barely trying.

Ghostbane

Players: "Gimmie a Burger damnit!"

<ZoS serves a burger to the table>

Players: <flings plate> "THE HELL IS THIS?"

Thelon

it was in quinoa burger

Xsorus

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

it takes a normal developer what 1 day to maybe 2 weeks max to get to the source of any problem given basic logging tools (i've been a enterprise developer for 20 years so i've got a reasonable feel for it). The fact is the developers know exactly what the problems are after a year+. They know what the problems are, and they cant fix them, that means either investment in hardware is being withheld or the issues would require a fundamental redesign of the software architecture including third party software that they do not want to invest in. This is the truth I suspect, poor short term planning for such a great IP., sad

As for a benchmark, GW2 WVW is busier and does not have the issues ESO has, and many many MMO shooters equally have no issues. The only way this problem will get fixed is if the player base ignores the excuses and misdirection and demands that action be taken.

Say what? GW2 WvW most certainly has similar issues to ESO....during zerg fights in that game you basically can only spam your 1 key as everything else doesn't work cause of Ping issues. AOE caps resulted in atrocious stacking...and the new PvP Maps are downright ***...Throw in multiple balance issues and you pretty much have ESO issues.

Xsorus

sadownik wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »

it takes a normal developer what 1 day to maybe 2 weeks max to get to the source of any problem given basic logging tools (i've been a enterprise developer for 20 years so i've got a reasonable feel for it). The fact is the developers know exactly what the problems are after a year+. They know what the problems are, and they cant fix them, that means either investment in hardware is being withheld or the issues would require a fundamental redesign of the software architecture including third party software that they do not want to invest in. This is the truth I suspect, poor short term planning for such a great IP., sad

As for a benchmark, GW2 WVW is busier and does not have the issues ESO has, and many many MMO shooters equally have no issues. The only way this problem will get fixed is if the player base ignores the excuses and misdirection and demands that action be taken.

Anyone that played gw2 at launch knows that they had similar server issues on the T1 worlds and it took them a long time to get it worked out.

they did, it took nearly a year to sort the issues out.

It took the exactly 7 months to finally cave in and introduce culling system. This solved not the lag, because the lag was absolutely nothing like in ESO in populated campaign but the poor performance on weaker machines.

The Culling system was one of the absolute worst PvP changes i've seen introduced to a PvP game to date....

Also you didn't have FPS issues like ESO..but you most certainly had Ping issues similar to ESO

Xsorus

Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »

@zyk I don't think people wanted Proxy to be used the same way it was being used. Think people just want to have meaningful fights and not people hitting Proxy running to the largest group of people to get kills. Sure, proxy is "weaker" for a large group using it to kill a single or small group of people but still effective. Really hasn't changed there but it is 10x better at solo bombing groups and that was my point.

The rest of your post I agree. Sharing ideas is great. It is what a gaming community should be about. ZoS should be wise to recognize all the free intern workers they have here posting their ideas. The issue is sometimes ideas lose the scope of the bigger picture which is something ZoS has to consider. It's not that I think they intentionally ignore us, an idea they may like still has to be scrutinized by the game designers. They ultimately make the call.

Right now, I think ZoS needs to communicate more. And I think it's needs to be more than just a ESO live response. What @Sypher did with his "We are ESO" podcast is something they should of engaged in. Especially the episodes they intended. By not doing so, they let the podcast dive into becoming more toxic ever episode. An opportunity missed especially the episode Rich attended cause he is probably the guy making the final call. Fengrush claims they talked after the show, but a public back and forth discussion is really what ZOS needs to pull the PvP community back behind the game.

Instead we are left with conspiracy theories about why Cyrodiil is not meeting it's players standards.

I will say this, BWB doesn't have these issues. Since 1.6, I rarely go into a vet campaign anymore because of how bad it is. That sux.

Quite a few people wanted Proxy to work like its working...but with one change...We wanted it to be less powerful in 1v1 fights...right now its basically super powerful burst damage spell....that gets more powerful the more ya hit.

Vicious death is basically similar to Shieldbreaker..in they're using itemization to fix some of the bigger problems instead of trying to change core mechanics for whatever reason.

Parafrost

All i see are proxy dets in pvp now. Even in Blackwater blade on ps4. It is getting way out of hand. Some of the ppl even hit next to nothing with proxy det. Atleast on me. Highest damage ive seen for a proxy det on me was 5.5k. And this was in the cp campaign. It is way lower on the non-cp campaign.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Sorry Kena but ZOS gave what magicka users wanted and as some sick bonus also what zergs wanted.

Like me and many others wanted heavy armor and tank buffs and I/we/they have been asking since Imperial City if not since 1.6 for them and yet 3 major updates later (IC, Wrothgar, TG) I/we/they still gotta wait till update 10 or the Dark Brotherhood update as some know it as in July 2016 for heavy armor/tank buffs.

Like I personally am trying to give ZOS a chance here but with how things are running now were just pooling everything into either max stamina or max magicka means you can beat everything in the game and be in the top tier of players in PvP it's really hard to be optimistic.