「Opinion」 Either get rid of Reduce Physical damage CP or remove Bastion CP

MaxwellC

Ever since this update dropped I cannot for the life of me fight off a shield stacking anything, I've tried putting 20 CP into shield breaker but unfortunately that doesn't seem to remedy that and I refuse to cripple my build anymore in order to make it viable for 1 situation.

People QQ'd saying that all Magicka classes need a Physical damage reduction CP since there's a magicka one yet fail to realize that you can block cast, shield stack, and far-cast most of your abilities to begin with. Stamina can block casts too but I'm sure every stamina user knows how that goes when we have 0 stam regen when blocking (You lose stamina REALLY FAST).

Mag NB Bomb Squad has never been so hard to kill until this update dropped for both PC/Console. I have trouble killing them on both as they can leave combat when-ever and fear into a shield stack which I now have to break again. Sorcs just shield stack and bolt away while reapplying more shields, templars heal through damage and shield stack all the way then use their HEAVILY OP Execute, and DKs just block cast while reapplying shields.

A little story: So me and 2 other random people were fighting this magicka templar now one thing to note here is that he wasn't really good. I could see him trying to use other abilities that he didn't mean to (switching different weapons really quickly and using random abilities), he would literally block cast and spam BoL with his shields going up while 3 people were wailing on him. This was with my CP into shattering blows, now prior to TG update that person would've been dead regardless it's 3 v 1 and we're all decent players or higher but he was able to block cast and proxi up (Proxi = New meta lol..). Now he did kill one player and no it wasn't me but he just used his execute on the other player from full health n downed him like normal thanks to TG.

Conclusion: All in all this needs to happen, you cannot have both because as a stamina based player and others can possibly agree we only have one line of defence against magicka and that's CP. We can't shield stack like you because that'll be all of our magicka in 2-3 clicks. If you wanna count blocking as another defence then Magicka has that too so that makes 3 vs 2 even though magicka is a more "safe play" unless you wanna go bomb squad with soul tether into proxi+bats like every mag blade does.

olsborg

I run shieldbreaker on my stamblade since shieldstacking is just too annoying.

DHale

I play a sorc any good stamina build has no problem getting through my shield or shields. This shield stacking is a figment of a rumor that repeated often means... Nothing. Harness magic is completely utterly worthless from any weapon in the game. Even if I spammed healing ward which although a shield is just my only heal it is a a 3 to 5 k shield at the most. One wrecking blow or flying blade does way more damage than that. Your defense against magic builds is Inpen and elemental defender. Your offense against sorcs is.... Weapon damage, shattering blows, penetration not crit and of course for the dps challenged shield breaker. Btw when I get beaten by a fellow sorc I sometimes get on my 4.8 k weapon damage nb and kill them then hop back on my sorc bc killing every thing super fast then turning invisible... No Bueno.

MaxwellC

Lol when you said "Figment" you just lost all credibility with me no shield stacking isn't some imagination that what it seems to be a large group of players have to deal with and yeah all I do as a stamina DK is WB I can fossilize with that too but it doesn't stop you breaking free.

You've got your Sorc wards and healing wards you can apply hardened ward then healing ward as many sorcs do and anyone who can block cast can use healing ward for that cool 300% extra shield depending on where their health is.

As a magicka you have impen,spell damage,spell pen, blessed(since you wanna make that silly statement),bastion,hardy.

I'm wearing 2 impen 3 inf 2 divine with 13 CP into crit resist so I'm not having a problem dying unless I fight a mag blade that happens all too frequently now. For some reason everyone has this notion that WB is some OP skill when it's not, you can easily dodge it by moving slightly backwards or interrupting it with any ability that acts as a CC.
As stated before it seems 20CP into shattering blows does nothing worthy so I will continue to redistribute that elsewhere away from that tree as a 1 off situation is not what I'm looking to counter-act.

Prior TG was the best balance between Stamina and Magicka users (at-least CP wise). Now you have literally Elder robes online where 7/10 players are magicka based players and that's just not for fun mate it's because it's the new fotm.

Autolycus

It's entirely possible to have capped block mitigation and still gear for magicka and spell damage. I'm assuming that this player didn't do a substantial amount of damage, rather was able to out-mitigate and out-shield your damage by giving up some of that damage potential themselves. It doesn't take a ton of spell power (I usually aim for around 3k on my healers) to have strong healing potential. As a templar it's fairly easy to run something like 5 footman (using jewelry), another 5set (most likely kags or julianos) and something like a 2set of willpower.

Of course, I just made this up as a theoretical example; I'm not saying this would be the optimal way to do it. But something like this, combined with a Blazing Shield and a Rune Focus would make a templar fairly resilient on top of reasonably high healing potential.

For a bit of further insight, I run with my healer in cyrodiil in the exact same gear I use for pve: SPC, 1 Kena, 2 Torugs, 3 Willpower. I run with a resto main bar, with nothing but heals/buffs, and a dual wield off-bar with almost nothing but damage, save for a single heal. In this set up I can self-buff to 3300 SD, which is pretty high when you consider almost everything is geared for healing (including ritual mundus and mostly divines). I often find that in small skirmishes, all I need to do is pop a couple of buffs and Mutagen, and then almost everything beyond that is damage, save for an occasional clutch heal or reapplying HoTs. I could pretty easily switch out 3 willpower and 2 other pieces for footman, use a willpower sword/shield on one bar and staff on the other, and be pretty tanky. I would give up a bit of spell power, but still be close to 3k, which is enough to take most people down.

timidobserver

Physical damage reduction is fair and necessary. However, I would be fine with removing bastion

Silver_Strider

I just play a no CP campaign and never deal with either problem.
Hell, even with CP, shield stackers have become much less of a problem because even with 100 CP into Bastion and 67 into Hardy, I can usually break thru their shield before it becomes a problem. Yes, it's annoying but they only have so much stamina to burn thru so eventually, they're gonna run out after a few CC breaks and then you just kill them.
This of course is in a 1v1 situation. Should they get another player, I'm more or less screwed because 9/10 times (for me anyway) it's a templar spamming BoL.

MaxwellC

@Autolycus
Nope he was a below average player (not trying to be rude but it was clear), he killed one player by using his radiant destruction execute and all I heard was from my 8 year old sounding DC ally "OMFG he hit 18k on me wtf"

@timidobserver
Yeah I'm fine with one of them being removed but not having both, it's just too much or they need to seriously increase damage against shields completely. I shouldn't have to put 30+ CP into shattering blows for it to be viable but lose out on increase crit/penetration because of it.

FriedEggSandwich

Sorry op, I only use one ward in pvp (hardened ward) and it's only 10.3k (77cp in bastion). You can use your cp to boost your physical and/or magical damage against my 10.3k shield by upto 25%. I therefore need to be able to counter that by increasing my wards resistance to physical and magical damage by up to 25%. But on top of that you can spend cp to do straight up more damage directly to my shield and the only thing I can do to mitigate that is spend more cp in bastion.

The counter to Hardy is Mighty, the counter to Elemental Defender is Elemental Expert, and the counter to Bastion is Shattering Blows. All is balanced

In your conclusion you forgot to mention some other forms of damage mitigation. Healing is damage mitigation and stam builds have good heals in the form of rally and vigor. Dodge chance is a form of damage mitigation and again stamina builds do this well by having reduced dodge-roll cost and shuffle/blur to give you a 20% chance to proc dodge chance when being targeted. While dodge chance is proc'd all attacks will miss you. Magicka builds have no block cost reduction outside of cp, no dodge-roll cost reduction outside of cp, and less dodge chance procs. Damage absorption (shields) is a valid form of damage mitigation for those builds that can't easily utilise the other forms of damage mitigation.

I hope this helps you see things from my perspective.

FriedEggSandwich

timidobserver wrote: »

Physical damage reduction is fair and necessary. However, I would be fine with removing bastion

Really? I would be fine with removing bastion if they removed shattering blows at the same time.

FriedEggSandwich

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

Lol when you said "Figment" you just lost all credibility with me no shield stacking isn't some imagination that what it seems to be a large group of players have to deal with and yeah all I do as a stamina DK is WB I can fossilize with that too but it doesn't stop you breaking free.

You've got your Sorc wards and healing wards you can apply hardened ward then healing ward as many sorcs do and anyone who can block cast can use healing ward for that cool 300% extra shield depending on where their health is.

As a magicka you have impen,spell damage,spell pen, blessed(since you wanna make that silly statement),bastion,hardy.

I'm wearing 2 impen 3 inf 2 divine with 13 CP into crit resist so I'm not having a problem dying unless I fight a mag blade that happens all too frequently now. For some reason everyone has this notion that WB is some OP skill when it's not, you can easily dodge it by moving slightly backwards or interrupting it with any ability that acts as a CC.
As stated before it seems 20CP into shattering blows does nothing worthy so I will continue to redistribute that elsewhere away from that tree as a 1 off situation is not what I'm looking to counter-act.

Prior TG was the best balance between Stamina and Magicka users (at-least CP wise). Now you have literally Elder robes online where 7/10 players are magicka based players and that's just not for fun mate it's because it's the new fotm.

20 cp into shattering blows will do what is says on the tootip. It's not exactly a one-off situation when all magicka builds (half the player base?) can use wards. Shattering Blows is the counter to bastion but you can't be bothered to spec into it cos you think it's too niche but yet wards bother you enough to make a thread?

Xvorg

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

@Autolycus
Nope he was a below average player (not trying to be rude but it was clear), he killed one player by using his radiant destruction execute and all I heard was from my 8 year old sounding DC ally "OMFG he hit 18k on me wtf"

@timidobserver
Yeah I'm fine with one of them being removed but not having both, it's just too much or they need to seriously increase damage against shields completely. I shouldn't have to put 30+ CP into shattering blows for it to be viable but lose out on increase crit/penetration because of it.

I saw a templar like that the other day. What I did was to put a lethal arrow on him then I charged with my maul. His healing became a little less efficient so he had to use all his magicka into get healthy. Put some pressure on him (WB, execution) and after a while he gave up and just... died.

MaxwellC

@FriedEggSandwich

While using Shuffle it's a chance (RNG based chance) for you to dodge an attack sorry but all attacks don't miss only some and even with 100CP into reduction and 6 piece stamina that's still costing you 2.8k stamina.

Stamina builds don't have a block cost reduction either (if you're going for DPS i.e. utilizing medium armor). You do have more stamina than Magicka builds but that can be said when using damage shields.

Not sure if you expect me to dodge and keep healing while you're attacking me, they may be a form of damage mitigation but to an extent they cannot be used over and over again unless you wanna return little to no damage while burning through the only resource you can use for damage. It is true we do have good heals but hard ward + heal ward is just as good if you follow up with the mines or crystal snare (forgot name). Now other magicka classes can't utilize hard ward but doesn't stop with their decent to awesome heals that can get them from dead zone to full in a matter of seconds i.e. templar heals, Mag DKs awesome heals, and Mag NB sap essence heals.

It is not balanced as you're able to deal high damage from a far that is my opinion, you may say what about bows, well the only ability that can do significant damage to you from a far is focus aim (snipes morph) and that can easily be absorb'd by one damage shield.

I'm fine with losing the useless shattering blows in exchange for bastion to be thrown out of the system but like I said before one has got to go.

MaxwellC

@FriedEggSandwich

Reading is fundamental please re-read my main post as I CLEARLY state I used CP in shattering blows then I follow up with stating I used 20 CP and it wasn't nearly as good.

I also go on to state that for that kind of damage to the shield I'd rather redistribute it into something a lot more helpful like increased crit of penetration.

FriedEggSandwich

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

@FriedEggSandwich

While using Shuffle it's a chance (RNG based chance) for you to dodge an attack sorry but all attacks don't miss only some and even with 100CP into reduction and 6 piece stamina that's still costing you 2.8k stamina.

Stamina builds don't have a block cost reduction either (if you're going for DPS i.e. utilizing medium armor). You do have more stamina than Magicka builds but that can be said when using damage shields.

Not sure if you expect me to dodge and keep healing while you're attacking me, they may be a form of damage mitigation but to an extent they cannot be used over and over again unless you wanna return little to no damage while burning through the only resource you can use for damage. It is true we do have good heals but hard ward + heal ward is just as good if you follow up with the mines or crystal snare (forgot name). Now other magicka classes can't utilize hard ward but doesn't stop with their decent to awesome heals that can get them from dead zone to full in a matter of seconds i.e. templar heals, Mag DKs awesome heals, and Mag NB sap essence heals.

It is not balanced as you're able to deal high damage from a far that is my opinion, you may say what about bows, well the only ability that can do significant damage to you from a far is focus aim (snipes morph) and that can easily be absorb'd by one damage shield.

I'm fine with losing the useless shattering blows in exchange for bastion to be thrown out of the system but like I said before one has got to go.

The way shuffle works is you get a 20% chance to proc a dodge period. Dodge-rolling also procs the same dodge period. When you dodge-roll all attacks that were fired at you while the dodge period was active will miss. A million skills could be fired at you during this dodge period and they would all miss. The dodge period is a small one (less than a second) 20% chance to proc it means you can get multiple procs in a row. So you can dodge a lot of skills with rng.

Autolycus

Xvorg wrote: »

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

@Autolycus
Nope he was a below average player (not trying to be rude but it was clear), he killed one player by using his radiant destruction execute and all I heard was from my 8 year old sounding DC ally "OMFG he hit 18k on me wtf"

@timidobserver
Yeah I'm fine with one of them being removed but not having both, it's just too much or they need to seriously increase damage against shields completely. I shouldn't have to put 30+ CP into shattering blows for it to be viable but lose out on increase crit/penetration because of it.

I saw a templar like that the other day. What I did was to put a lethal arrow on him then I charged with my maul. His healing became a little less efficient so he had to use all his magicka into get healthy. Put some pressure on him (WB, execution) and after a while he gave up and just... died.

Yeah there are definitely ways around it. In a build like the one I described, CC is usually their bane. That's the inherent drawback to relying entirely on block mitigation; if you can't block, you aren't mitigating damage. You'll find that a good Templar knows how to take advantage of his opponents' knowledge of this fact. It's easier to turn that knowledge against someone on a non-Temp class by using something like Petrify, Defensive Rune, or Agony., however a good Templar will anticipate you taking advantage of this and can thwart that attempt when you make it.

I frequently take advantage of people in this way on my stam sorc and my magblade (I don't use cloak on my NB; either you win or I do, there is no running away). For example, on my stam sorc, most people will attempt to close distance and CC when they see me bar-swap to a bow. I will switch to bow, expecting them to rush me, cast Def Rune, and bar swap back. As soon as the D Rune procs, I hit them with a WB + Execute. I do something similar on my NB, waiting for a crit rush or ambush, then dodge rolling through my opponent (to get behind them) and follow that up with high burst damage to finish them off immediately, or force Agony + Cripple on them to wear them down.

FriedEggSandwich

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

@FriedEggSandwich

Reading is fundamental please re-read my main post as I CLEARLY state I used CP in shattering blows then I follow up with stating I used 20 CP and it wasn't nearly as good.

I also go on to state that for that kind of damage to the shield I'd rather redistribute it into something a lot more helpful like increased crit of penetration.

You said you were gonna redistribute them. I can read :P

EsoRecon

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

Ever since this update dropped I cannot for the life of me fight off a shield stacking anything, I've tried putting 20 CP into shield breaker but unfortunately that doesn't seem to remedy that and I refuse to cripple my build anymore in order to make it viable for 1 situation.

People QQ'd saying that all Magicka classes need a Physical damage reduction CP since there's a magicka one yet fail to realize that you can block cast, shield stack, and far-cast most of your abilities to begin with. Stamina can block casts too but I'm sure every stamina user knows how that goes when we have 0 stam regen when blocking (You lose stamina REALLY FAST).

Mag NB Bomb Squad has never been so hard to kill until this update dropped for both PC/Console. I have trouble killing them on both as they can leave combat when-ever and fear into a shield stack which I now have to break again. Sorcs just shield stack and bolt away while reapplying more shields, templars heal through damage and shield stack all the way then use their HEAVILY OP Execute, and DKs just block cast while reapplying shields.

A little story: So me and 2 other random people were fighting this magicka templar now one thing to note here is that he wasn't really good. I could see him trying to use other abilities that he didn't mean to (switching different weapons really quickly and using random abilities), he would literally block cast and spam BoL with his shields going up while 3 people were wailing on him. This was with my CP into shattering blows, now prior to TG update that person would've been dead regardless it's 3 v 1 and we're all decent players or higher but he was able to block cast and proxi up (Proxi = New meta lol..). Now he did kill one player and no it wasn't me but he just used his execute on the other player from full health n downed him like normal thanks to TG.

Conclusion: All in all this needs to happen, you cannot have both because as a stamina based player and others can possibly agree we only have one line of defence against magicka and that's CP. We can't shield stack like you because that'll be all of our magicka in 2-3 clicks. If you wanna count blocking as another defence then Magicka has that too so that makes 3 vs 2 even though magicka is a more "safe play" unless you wanna go bomb squad with soul tether into proxi+bats like every mag blade does.

I haven't had a problem killing people on my stam nb... Still get 1vX clips all the time. [snip]


[edited for bait]

MaxwellC

@FriedEggSandwich

That Dodge period doesn't stack up like you're thinking it does. No buff period stacks up in this game (Major endurance, expedition savagery,etc)

You feel that I can dodge roll an entire army of skills which is not how it works and it doesn't work that way at all. My advice here is to play stamina and try dodge rolling with shuffle on and see how far you get because it doesn't get far with me. Like I said before you can only dodge roll so far and if I were to mix up abilities I will not last long enough before I died because I dodged roll enough to avoid all your attacks.

MaxwellC

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

@FriedEggSandwich

Reading is fundamental please re-read my main post as I CLEARLY state I used CP in shattering blows then I follow up with stating I used 20 CP and it wasn't nearly as good.

I also go on to state that for that kind of damage to the shield I'd rather redistribute it into something a lot more helpful like increased crit of penetration.

You said you were gonna redistribute them. I can read :P

Yeah as I had already tried using it, You implied that I had not used it but complained about wards being too much so that tells me you didn't read what I had said and therefore made an assumption which I clearly pointed out I did use it. Sorry you have to be more clear about what you're saying because you clearly to me said I didn't use it and yeah I have redistributed it because it was useless.

FriedEggSandwich

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

@FriedEggSandwich

That Dodge period doesn't stack up like you're thinking it does. No buff period stacks up in this game (Major endurance, expedition savagery,etc)

You feel that I can dodge roll an entire army of skills which is not how it works and it doesn't work that way at all. My advice here is to play stamina and try dodge rolling with shuffle on and see how far you get because it doesn't get far with me. Like I said before you can only dodge roll so far and if I were to mix up abilities I will not last long enough before I died because I dodged roll enough to avoid all your attacks.

Likewise, I feel you should play a sorc with 13k stam and 600 stam regen and only one ward. 20% chance to proc dodge implies multiple procs in a row. Not saying the skill is op as the dodge period is small, but it is effective damage mitigation. I may not play a stam build but I have pvp'd for nearly 2 years.

MaxwellC

@Autolycus
[snip] Me and fried are having a good discussion here and with you, you're at-least giving me some probable things that templar could've done to pro-long his/her life.


[minor edit, ref to removed quote]

MaxwellC

@FriedEggSandwich
I play both Stamina and Magicka DK so I know the pain of not having a lot of regen in stamina but I utilize my earthen heart passives with low magicka costs to counter act that form. I can easily block cast and healing ward up through most damage especially if it's a 1 v 1 or a 1 v 2 scenario (unless ones a templar).

Like this discussion is about I want one of the CPs to be removed you can have shattering blows removed too because that's just a useless CP all together. I'd rather have it be Increase light/Heavy attack speeds.

EsoRecon

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

@Autolycus
Me and fried are having a good discussion here and with you, you're at-least giving me some probable things that templar could've done to pro-long his/her life.

[snip]
But for real now I know magic is a little bit better now, but skill will (most of the time) always outplay cheese. And I am proud to say I haven't once been killed by a wanna be sypher magic nb


[Edited for bait, to remove quote]

FriedEggSandwich

@MaxwellCrystal

The way I see it the problem with magicka builds is the shield stacking, nothing else. So as a sorc who chooses to only use one ward you won't get any movement from me on this subject until it's impossible to stack shields and Bastion remains an issue after that. I am an advocate for the removal of shield stacking, I happen to think the cp trees are pretty balanced if you remove shield stacking from the equation.

EsoRecon

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

@FriedEggSandwich
I play both Stamina and Magicka DK so I know the pain of not having a lot of regen in stamina but I utilize my earthen heart passives with low magicka costs to counter act that form. I can easily block cast and healing ward up through most damage especially if it's a 1 v 1 or a 1 v 2 scenario (unless ones a templar).

Like this discussion is about I want one of the CPs to be removed you can have shattering blows removed too because that's just a useless CP all together. I'd rather have it be Increase light/Heavy attack speeds.

You are just going to have to wait till Dark Brotherhood for any stamina updates.

EsoRecon

Honestly guys ZOS isn't going to change how shields work. So just give it up. Learn to outplay the loser sorcs and if you can't kill them just *** with them CONSTANTLY. It's what I do and it's funny seeing them rage.

Bfish22090

hahah thats a good one. funny
how about make dodge rolling a different resource outside of stamina?

EsoRecon

Bfish22090 wrote: »

hahah thats a good one. funny
how about make dodge rolling a different resource outside of stamina?

ummm no

EsoRecon

Bfish22090 wrote: »

hahah thats a good one. funny
how about make dodge rolling a different resource outside of stamina?

Btw they all left this thread because they didn't like my 1vX clips on my stamblade. Told them stam was fine and to L2P and they just left. I'm kinda hurt now

MaxwellC

@EsoRecon
I'm playing PvP atm and yeah I know DBH is where I'll receive the stamina balances I need but I'm really tired of this shield stacking non-sense; before TG it was bad but now it's worse.