Why are Champion Points Better than Veteran Ranks?

AdamBourke

The arguments I've seen against VR are:

• Once you've got VR16 Gold Gear, you don't want to have to get it all again for VR18.
• Only Silver/Gold quests count towards VR experience.

For the first, it seems like you'll still have to do that but now it will be tied to CP instead of VR? And for the second, would it not have been easier to just make all experience go towards VR?

I'm not saying champion points are bad. I'm just saying.... they've done an awful lot of work on something that, to me, seems pretty much the same thing.

And also I don't like that they are cross-character... But I get that that's debateable.

greylox

I thought experience was experience, but yeah, going from vr to co changes nothing.

Abeille

Because Champion Points are account-wide, and Veteran Ranks are not.

CaptainBeerDude

CP's expand your toon in different ways. They allow for weapon, armour, stat and ability buffs to suit Your specific play style. VR's are just a general overall buff. So I prefer CP's because they allow me to personalise my toon further. And having them account wide means that u can have altiitis without losing what's left of my game time getting them lvled up.

rotaugen454

The only danger in CP is the very large gap it can create between old time players and new ones, but they have non-CP campaigns for that. It lets you individualize your character to an extent, but the flavor of the month builds will have similar point spreads for the min/maxers.

myrrrorb14_ESO

The champion system is account wide with a catch up mechanism. The higher the cap the faster you earn points. This allows new players the opportunity to close the gap to a manageable difference in a relatively short time and be able to equip all your characters with the same seasonal gear once they hit level 50.

Prabooo

CP allows for build diversity, veterank ranks is only an armor/attributes buff

idk

Vet ranks as CP really don't compare. While Zos originally said The CP system which goes beyond just CP points) was going to replace vet ranks, it's obvious that is not the case since the full CP system has been in game for almost a year. They even increased the level cap since for some I mien reason.

Vet ranks and CP really do not compare. They are removing the vet ranks because of the horrendous grind. It takes to get to end game. The original v10 cap meant leveling to 50 and repeating that 2 more times to get to end game. Now it's 3x after hitting level 50.

With that, many left the game cause of the horrendous grind. His whole change is big and bug for a reason. Implemfing these changes meant Zos admitted to a huge failure in the design at launch though it's not clear if the changes are a real imprcemenf.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

After vet ranks are removed all your VR characters will instantly become max level. Any character you have all you need to do is level him to 50 and boom skip 16 vet ranks instantly be max level. No more leveling alts.

Kas

CPs add another layer of choice (distribute them) and a smoother progression.
once in place, they kinda made vet ranks obsolete.

there will still be progression and also the need to get new equip repeatedly. while that's annoying, it's also important to give players a target. it's not "different" and neither a fix to the typical problem of MMOs (some people invest incredibly much time and want to keep progressing, others want to play without being forced to invest as much time).

it just solves the problem that (after the introduction of the champion system), there are two parallel systems that essentially do the same thing, just with one being more coplex

BossXV

Champ points give more character customization, and that's alot more than just gaining a level, but ya that's about it

TheShadowScout

Abeille wrote: »

Because Champion Points are account-wide, and Veteran Ranks are not.

^This!^

The main difference between the curerent "VR+CP" system and the "Champion system only" will be that all characters on your account will right away be able to use the endgame armors as soon as they hit 50 and c-points take over. meaning if you want to dash right into endgame with an alt, right now you have to play mainstory, cadwells, and then something to get to those last V ranks... or grind,grind,grind through 16 tenious veteran ranks... once the champion system rules supreme, you'll be at the same basic stage after kicking Molag in the Bal.

Makes Alting much easier, since you get there in roughly a third of the time spent...

Now, I personally still intend to play all my alts through cadwells, despite already having hit cap, because... I just cannot rest easily knowing I have quests left undone... but I am sure certain 'people' will enjoy having the option to bypass cadwells...

Elijah_Crow

Veteran Ranks were created shortly before launch as path to alternate advancement after level cap. This was brought on by the decision to allow players to do other factions content. This was a poor system and the champion system was created to replace it.

They announced when they released the champion system that it would run concurrently with the veteran rank system for some time until vet ranks were removed. This was delayed as all creatures/items are also linked to the veteran rank system and it has been a lot of work to re-link these to champion progression. We have received Dev conformation that the programming is now in and Vet Ranks will be removed with Update 10 (Dark Brotherhood).

It's better simply because the Champion Point System is a true alternate advancement system to allow you to flesh out your character after you reach level cap.

starlizard70ub17_ESO

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

After vet ranks are removed all your VR characters will instantly become max level. Any character you have all you need to do is level him to 50 and boom skip 16 vet ranks instantly be max level. No more leveling alts.

But you do need to run through some of the Caldwell's silver and gold content to get your skyshards and extra skill points. Still it better then grinding your way through all of it again and again.

driosketch

AdamBourke wrote: »

• Only Silver/Gold quests count towards VR experience.

This hasn't been the case since they eliminated VP and made everything XP, besides which you would never get past VR 10 if that was the case.

Brrrofski

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

After vet ranks are removed all your VR characters will instantly become max level. Any character you have all you need to do is level him to 50 and boom skip 16 vet ranks instantly be max level. No more leveling alts.

Exactly. It's a much better system.

Allows people to play more and grind less.

It'll encourage people to play other classes and may bring a bit of diversity back to pvp.

WalkingLegacy

They're not better and just an artificial hook because they have no endgame and no endgame gear progression.

STEVIL

IMO CP system is better than VR system in two ways:
CP provides small bonuses as customizations more frequently versus the VR taking so long to pay out a new level. More players prefer faster payout.
CP will allow immediate scalingbof ALTS once they hit 50, preventing rerunning the same contentbtime and time again.

But fundamentally, its just a different flor.

Although, it may be the case that its easier to manage combat between diverse levels of char with all gains beyond 50 in CP, more or less, and "no cp" venues. Not sure tho.

Morimizo

Are we CERTAIN that they won't change CP's to be per character, rather than account-wide?

Are we certain that what is now V16 gear-wise will be available at 50 once this is changed? Seems odd going from Ebony to Rubidite instantly...why bother with Cal, Galatite, Quicksilver, or Void then?

Will attribute points and skill points normally allocated through VR be tied to CP thresholds?

I need answers to these questions before I decide whether removing VR is a good idea.

Elijah_Crow

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

They're not better and just an artificial hook because they have no endgame and no endgame gear progression.

There will be end game gear. Each tier of gear will have a CP requirement to equip.

Morimizo wrote: »

Are we CERTAIN that they won't change CP's to be per character, rather than account-wide?

Yes, probably posted somewhere in the forums but stated on ESO Live.

Morimizo wrote: »

Are we certain that what is now V16 gear-wise will be available at 50 once this is changed? Seems odd going from Ebony to Rubidite instantly...why bother with Cal, Galatite, Quicksilver, or Void then?

That won't happen, as I said each tier of gear will have a CP requirement to equip including new tiers coming later.

Morimizo wrote: »

Will attribute points and skill points normally allocated through VR be tied to CP thresholds?

No. These are now planned to be rewarded at certain points in the leveling process. Some key levels you will receive 2 skill points instead of 1.

Again, this is from Dev interviews on their current plans to roll out the system as stated on ESO Live.

Morimizo

@Elijah_Crow, thank you for the clarifications.

However, if gear,attribute, and skill points are tied to leveling CP, how is that really different from VR? Each chr still needs a certain amount of XP whether they quest in Cadwell's, DLC, or PvP; don't we have that choice now? Not really arguing for or against VR, just seems like a parallel shift.

And is every character going to have an indicator next to their name listing CP, or are we all going to be 50 only?

Elijah_Crow

Morimizo wrote: »

@Elijah_Crow, thank you for the clarifications.

However, if gear,attribute, and skill points are tied to leveling CP, how is that really different from VR? Each chr still needs a certain amount of XP whether they quest in Cadwell's, DLC, or PvP; don't we have that choice now? Not really arguing for or against VR, just seems like a parallel shift.

And is every character going to have an indicator next to their name listing CP, or are we all going to be 50 only?

How is it different? VR were put in place until they had a real alternate advancement system. The Champion System is that new and "true" alternate advancement system.

With the Champion Point catch up mechanic, only a limited amount of progress is needed post 50 to reach top tier of gear. Each Veteran Rank is = 10 Champion Points in their current plan. This means to equip VR16 Gear you need 160 Champion points.

Not only is 160 Champion Points super easy to get with a week or two of play after level 50, but you can do it however you want - Through PvP, PvE, etc. You don't have to ever go to the Cadwells silver or gold (though you might want to grab sky shards).

When the next tier of gear is introduced it may require 170 or 180 Champion Points, but it will only be a small incremental increase.

Remember, ESO instituted an alternate advancement system for your character. They never said anything about not having gear progression. In fact in the design of ESO gear progression is important and will remain.

As for your character, I don't believe there will be any indication of CP. There may be however for Monsters. Something in a silver zone might be CP 40 or 50 and something in a gold zone may be CP 80 or 90, Craglorn up to 140, etc. This though is speculation.

WalkingLegacy

I like your optimism Elijah.

Let's hope it pans out the way you think.

CP system has no place in an MMO though and having a whole other equip requirement plus your level is lame.

Morimizo

Thanks again for your information; I definitely prefer the CP system as a form of character progression to just VR. I still consider this to be a parallel move, but with vastly decreased thresholds for attaining gear ranks/att&skill points. I guess it's just cleaner in terms of presentation to have only one system post-50?

I'm not crazy about everyone being labeled 50; seems sterile, and completely uninformative. If monsters will be labeled, why can't there be some sort of "at-a-glance" info about other players? Particularly since there is such a small amount of available titles.

ContraTempo

Elijah_Crow wrote: »

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

They're not better and just an artificial hook because they have no endgame and no endgame gear progression.

There will be end game gear. Each tier of gear will have a CP requirement to equip.

Morimizo wrote: »

Are we CERTAIN that they won't change CP's to be per character, rather than account-wide?

Yes, probably posted somewhere in the forums but stated on ESO Live.

Morimizo wrote: »

Are we certain that what is now V16 gear-wise will be available at 50 once this is changed? Seems odd going from Ebony to Rubidite instantly...why bother with Cal, Galatite, Quicksilver, or Void then?

That won't happen, as I said each tier of gear will have a CP requirement to equip including new tiers coming later.

Morimizo wrote: »

Will attribute points and skill points normally allocated through VR be tied to CP thresholds?

No. These are now planned to be rewarded at certain points in the leveling process. Some key levels you will receive 2 skill points instead of 1.

Again, this is from Dev interviews on their current plans to roll out the system as stated on ESO Live.

Thanks, I was just gonna ask about that. XD

NewBlacksmurf

AdamBourke wrote: »

The arguments I've seen against VR are:

• Once you've got VR16 Gold Gear, you don't want to have to get it all again for VR18.
• Only Silver/Gold quests count towards VR experience.

For the first, it seems like you'll still have to do that but now it will be tied to CP instead of VR? And for the second, would it not have been easier to just make all experience go towards VR?

I'm not saying champion points are bad. I'm just saying.... they've done an awful lot of work on something that, to me, seems pretty much the same thing.

And also I don't like that they are cross-character... But I get that that's debateable.

I'd like to add more reasonable things.

-VR only applies to a specific character levels but does not adequately apply to the skills which is a big issue as all skills and passives stop at level 50 so you're not really leveling everything. Champion points do apply each time you earn one and it is applied per your choice limited to the trio.

-VR does not take into account the experienced player who may just re-roll cause....they want to re-roll. The VR makes them grind up while the CP system allows them to play effectively from level 1 - 50 right away. This encourages players at level 10-25 to try other classes in order to play effectively with others in grouping tool encounters, PvP (some campaigns)

-VR if we assume gear requirements will move from VR to CP, this also follows the logic that crafted, earned and any BoA items apply appropriately and logical remove unnecessary grinds that would otherwise cause more and more separation as DLC drops.

-VR is a skill and stat only while CP are passives that can effectively round out any and all classes as well as cause viability or even more efficiency if hopes are to specialize.


sorry if I read this wrong...

phaneub17_ESO

CP as a catch up mechanic works better than VR in my opinion. MMO's have that issue where they want players creating new characters to be able to catch up to the current player-base, having to grind it out every time you level a new character is just time consuming. If your CP is already high enough the only process you need to go through is get that new character to level 50 and gear up immediately rather than having to push VR 16 on top of it before you can equip anything. You may still need to level up some skills to rank IV after morph, but otherwise you should be good to go. I also like CP better as a continuation of character growth rather than just static stats and skill points, it gives you more customization via passive talents.

Duiwel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04854XqcfCY

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

I like your optimism Elijah.

Let's hope it pans out the way you think.

CP system has no place in an MMO though and having a whole other equip requirement plus your level is lame.

Thats not how it will work. If you have 501 CP you have 501 CP. It doenst matter the level of the character as long as he is beyond level 50. So your level 50 character will be able to wear end game gear without worrying about leveling up. I dont like it personally. I think leveling alts etc is a way to keep people in the game. Now they wont have to do any of that but once. So they will get bored and quit.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

CP as a catch up mechanic works better than VR in my opinion. MMO's have that issue where they want players creating new characters to be able to catch up to the current player-base, having to grind it out every time you level a new character is just time consuming. If your CP is already high enough the only process you need to go through is get that new character to level 50 and gear up immediately rather than having to push VR 16 on top of it before you can equip anything. You may still need to level up some skills to rank IV after morph, but otherwise you should be good to go. I also like CP better as a continuation of character growth rather than just static stats and skill points, it gives you more customization via passive talents.

Heck why stop there. They should make everything shared even gear. So you dont have to work for anything. Then we can be just like a first person shooter. Whee!

WalkingLegacy

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

I like your optimism Elijah.

Let's hope it pans out the way you think.

CP system has no place in an MMO though and having a whole other equip requirement plus your level is lame.

Thats not how it will work. If you have 501 CP you have 501 CP. It doenst matter the level of the character as long as he is beyond level 50. So your level 50 character will be able to wear end game gear without worrying about leveling up. I dont like it personally. I think leveling alts etc is a way to keep people in the game. Now they wont have to do any of that but once. So they will get bored and quit.

Have they confirmed anywhere the there will not be a CP requirement on gear?