Was it really necesarry to drop DX 9 support and cut off older computers?

howardeb17_ESO2

Simple question - in the subject.
Wasn't it possible to maintain DX 9 support without the new graphics features?
You must know how many players is no longer able to play. Graphics effects are not always important.

ScotteYx

Yeah, I'm gutted as my laptop no longer supports this game .

NativeJoe

Yes it was needed. They don't need to be supporting x9, dx11, and in the future x12 all at the same time. its to much back and forth...and focusing on a more limited number of more functional api's is better for everyone not on a laptop nearly a decade old.

I really do feel for you guys tho. It is a pain to be dropped so harshly like this.

But alas, T'is the only way for things to progress...and at least they did it around tax return time, and that is about as merciful as they could do it.

ScotteYx

It's just bad that you buy a game with a specific set of minimum requirements, then upon buying said game, those minimum requirements changes. That's fundamentally wrong - surely?

For me, I have my PC to play on, however, I was really hoping to get it running on my laptop so I could get my GF online with it.

Marto

PC games have to eventually all switch to DX11/DX12 and 64bit. Most graphically intensive games nowadays, like Witcher 3, Battlefield, Metal Gear Solid... they are all DX11 64bit. A lot of things are simply not possible on DX9, and that doesn't apply to just graphics.

It's been SEVEN YEARS since DirectX 11 released, I think it's about time players upgrade to it, consider this an upgrade equivalent to getting a new console.

(After all, Xbox used DX8.1, Xbox 360 used DX9, and Xbox One uses DX11/12)

Rosveen

How do PCs so old even run ESO? It must not be very comfortable experience.

Reverb

ScotteYx wrote: »

It's just bad that you buy a game with a specific set of minimum requirements, then upon buying said game, those minimum requirements changes. That's fundamentally wrong - surely?

Not really. Application publishers have to adapt to accommodate advancing standards and technologies. Just like you can't expect updated software to run on Windows 98, you can't expect old hardware to run modern content forever.

When you chose a laptop, you traded portability and small form factor for the ability to upgrade components. This means accepting that you have to replace the entire laptop when the components become obsolete. Yours is now obsolete for advanced gaming.

howardeb17_ESO2

And was it really necesarry to discontinue OpenGL as well?
I don't understand it.

Brrrofski

Isn't that part if being a pc gamer? Upgrading every so often so games run better and can improve.

If you want the same thing for 7 years, console does that...

ScotteYx

I agree that times have got to move on, sure.

The issue is that it happened after a set of minimum requirements have already been established.

I suppose it's because it's an MMO that this has happened. I wonder if this was a game that had a yearly release cycle, would they have saved the DX upgrade for the next game in the series, stating new minimum requirements?

Either way, it's a minor annoyance, but for some, it'd be a deal breaker, which is a shame. It would have been nice if it was an option somewhere or something similar.

olsborg

Its zos' ongoing effort to fix lagg, they start by cutting ppl off the game so fewer will play (troll)

howardeb17_ESO2

I'm quite pissed.... I should play something else, but I have been playing ESO for more than 600 hours and I have my smithing, woodworking and clothier skills maxed, I don't want to throw it all away

maboleth

This was not a finished DX9 game, but a program that constantly evolves. This is a work in progress, no matter the initial 2014 release date. So expect the minimum specs to go up, as long as this game develops.

howardeb17_ESO2

And surprisingly many people are OK with it.
I can do nothing.

ScotteYx

howardeb17_ESO2 wrote: »

And surprisingly many people are OK with it.
I can do nothing.

I feel for you mate, it must genuinely be awful given how much you seem to love this game. Is there any way you can upgrade your PC/Laptop?

Also, ensure you've upgraded your version Direct X, as your graphics card may be still able to handle the latest versions.

howardeb17_ESO2

I can play at home... but this is the only computer capable of DX11. I used to play while travelling on a laptop and at work.
But now I need Windows. I was going to delete the entire partition with Windows, now I can't.

howardeb17_ESO2

But I didn't want to discuss my situation.

Back to the original question.
Was it really necesarry?

Wasn't it possible maintain some kind of 'compatibility mode' with the new DX11 features off?
Or the number of players incompatible with DX11 was so small?
I would like to see the statistics.

ScotteYx

Yeah, I'd be interested too to find out why. What have we gained? What will we gain?

Also, why is there not, like you said, a compatibility mode for older PCs to use, with the possibly of reduced performance etc.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Eventually the old pc either needs an upgrade or its a boat anchor. DX9 has been outdated now for years. Im surprised this game even launched with support for it. I mean I feel bad for people but I have a 486 computer I paid almost $2000 for years ago when $2000 was alot of money heh. It doesnt run anything new. Im not upset I knew at some point Id need a new computer.

Denidil

Yes it is necessary and according to wikipedia every Nvidia card (save for the OEM 405) since the 400 series and every ATI card since HD 5000 series (thats pretty much every video card made for the last SIX YEARS) supports DX11.

Those of us who don't have ancient machines (The vast majority) don't want to have to have those of you who refuse to get recent systems holding down the features of the game like a boat anchor.

KallistaBlackheart

yes,
dx11 came out almost nine years ago.....

KingYogi415

My 2010 HP probook has dx11.
The thing can bearly play wow. Let alone eso.

LostScot

NativeJoe wrote: »

Yes it was needed. They don't need to be supporting x9, dx11, and in the future x12 all at the same time. its to much back and forth...and focusing on a more limited number of more functional api's is better for everyone not on a laptop nearly a decade old.

I really do feel for you guys tho. It is a pain to be dropped so harshly like this.

But alas, T'is the only way for things to progress...and at least they did it around tax return time, and that is about as merciful as they could do it.

You've obviously never done any rendering engine development then. Worst part is there are people who know even less, they'll read your post, and they'll actually believe it. I'm speaking from first-hand experience, and there is zero need to drop multiple rendering outputs. The devs for ESO are already maintaining both OpenGL and DirectX rendering outputs, trust me, maintaining the feature set of the existing DX9 renderer alongside outfitting the DX11 renderer with new features is a tiny amount of work for a developer.

LostScot

maboleth wrote: »

This was not a finished DX9 game, but a program that constantly evolves. This is a work in progress, no matter the initial 2014 release date. So expect the minimum specs to go up, as long as this game develops.

BS. I work on a high-profile MMO and we maintain OS-specific support for older clients because quite frankly if we dropped support for DX9 we'd lose 40% of our customers - or in more meaningful terms, we'd lose 320,000 customers approximately. We're able to provide DX9, DX11 and OpenGL support in our game with a much smaller development team, why can't Zenimax do the same?

Denidil

LostScot apparently you're completely unaware of this thing called "testing" and that maintaining multiple rendering pipelines does come at a cost beyond just dev and test time - supporting older ones can hold back newer ones. When properly supporting the newer one means internal code restructuring that is at odds with properly supporting the older one.

But then, what do I know - I just work on the OS itself.

howardeb17_ESO2

LostScot - thanks.
That's what I meant. I'm glad somebody confirmed it.

And yes - why can't Zenimax do the same, if maintaining DX9 is not a big deal.
I don't understand it.

danno8

LostScot wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

This was not a finished DX9 game, but a program that constantly evolves. This is a work in progress, no matter the initial 2014 release date. So expect the minimum specs to go up, as long as this game develops.

BS. I work on a high-profile MMO and we maintain OS-specific support for older clients because quite frankly if we dropped support for DX9 we'd lose 40% of our customers - or in more meaningful terms, we'd lose 320,000 customers approximately. We're able to provide DX9, DX11 and OpenGL support in our game with a much smaller development team, why can't Zenimax do the same?

I would actually like to know why they did it too.

Not because I disagree, but I do wonder if they have numbers (like yours) that showed they would only lose "x" number of people, but maintaining the client for both 9 and 11 uses "y" development hours to maintain.

They then do a cost benefit analysis and make a decision.

At least that's how I think it would go, but I would love to hear the reasoning and exact number if ZoS would be forthcoming. Steam survey show around 60-70% of people with DX11 capable card + OS, which leaves a solid 30% with DX9 + 10 card +OS. 30% is a pretty big amount to leave behind, which is why I wonder if ESO players have a higher number of DX 11+ systems.

edit: I goofed in reading the survey and included the DX11 cards + Vista + in with the DX 9+10 group. So the number of DX9 + 10 incompatible systems is more like 15%

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

LostScot wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

This was not a finished DX9 game, but a program that constantly evolves. This is a work in progress, no matter the initial 2014 release date. So expect the minimum specs to go up, as long as this game develops.

BS. I work on a high-profile MMO and we maintain OS-specific support for older clients because quite frankly if we dropped support for DX9 we'd lose 40% of our customers - or in more meaningful terms, we'd lose 320,000 customers approximately. We're able to provide DX9, DX11 and OpenGL support in our game with a much smaller development team, why can't Zenimax do the same?

Its not that they cannot. Its that they dont want to.

howardeb17_ESO2

Yes and the question is why.
They don't mind to lose X% of players?

Denidil

howardeb17_ESO2 wrote: »

LostScot - thanks.
That's what I meant. I'm glad somebody confirmed it.

And yes - why can't Zenimax do the same, if maintaining DX9 is not a big deal.
I don't understand it.

because LostScot doesn't know what he's talking about. DX9 and DX11 are fairly different, DX9 and DX12 are lightyears apart. The way you structure code to work with DX12 and DX9 is different and largely contradictory. They're trying to move forward.

Also the percentage of players whose video cads are OLDER THAN SIX YEARS OLD should be pretty small.

Loves_guars

Rosveen wrote: »

How do PCs so old even run ESO? It must not be very comfortable experience.

I don't know, but I was running it perfectly fine.

And yes it is wrong.