Is your character really the "vestige"?

mb10

I have 2 characters that I both role play with and in short:

1. Highly ranked in the AD, anti daedra/evil and a proud member of the fighters guild. A redguard who was originally sent to AD as a spy but had changed his political views in favour of AD and has betrayed the DC. He has had a thieving background and may be tempted to join the thieves guild in secrecy.

2. A dark elf who's obsessed with power, knowledge and forbidden magic. Cares nothing for the alliance war. Started as a student at the mages guild and his dark side is a very well kept secret at the moment. Uses the mages guild as a way to use their resources and freely travel across tamriel.(Had to buy the mages guild robes from crown store for this roleplay! haha 700 crowns)

The way I roleplay the "vestige" is that when I do the quests with these characters, its just a vision that they are experiencing or for the 2nd one he is reading the events of the vestige from a book and is imagining how it happened.

I dont think it is possbile for the mighty heroic vestige to be either of these two type of characters and tbh many of the characters I see around too.

How do you play the whole vestige character?

Samsayia

As I answered in the other thread, the vestige and his burning heroic side really doesn't add up to any sort of morally grey or bad character. As with most in-game roleplayers, the whole vestige thing is considered non-canon or just the vestige is someone /else/. I don't know anyone who incorporates any of the vestige into their actual character. at all.

I know that may sound like a giant slap in the face to the Developers but it's the RP standard as far as I know.

I find the vestige as an entertaining story and all and good game play, but I don't think anyone can really relate to how heroic he/she is on a whim, let alone have a character based off of them. I like that the vestige will always ask questions and not just run in blind, BUT, he/she is a lawful good forever and ever. Only your knightly knighty knights would appreciate that sort of character.

So yeah, the quest lines of the vestige are just a side story as far as RPers are concerned. I don't want to make it sound like said RPers don't appreciate the story that gets told, but it's impossible to bring the Vestige into any player RP.

mb10

@Samsayia

Thanks for the response and I couldn't agree more.

Of course the Vestige events are currently happening but they just aren't with our characters.

Haha a tamriel hero who is part of the thieves guild and maybe the dark brotherhood when it comes out? Some are even vampires!

Samsayia

And some are werewolves and some are master murderers and thieves.

It's sort of a plot hole in the game that the vestige can become a werewolf or vampire because the in-game characters will never acknowledge it even if you complete quests in front of them using said affliction to over power your enemies. No one acknowledges it.

Now the DLC stuff I consider slightly different because I like to think that the TG and dark brotherhood stuff is the vestige AFTER he/she saves the world. Like, they've done the hero song and dance so long that they finally turn to the dark side lol.

mb10

@Samsayia

Yeah its very difficult for them to control NPC's attitude towards these types of characters but I've always thought that at the start of character creation in any TES game, there should be a "main character" option that can be unchosen.

That way you cannot complete any of the main quests or gain any skills/items that the main character attains.

For eg shouts in Skyrim or Soul Magic skill line in ESO.

As for the DLC stuff, I still think its unrealistic for someone who defeats Molag Bal to join the Thieves Guild haha it just doesn't sit with me. Especially considering that there will be more DLC thats related to the main quest as Varen mentions. So it defeats the going bad and staying bad thing as you'll have to be a hero again.

Overall though it just depends on the individual and what makes them happy playing the game.

dodgehopper_ESO

Just to play the other side from a story perspective. The ES series is a very Greco-Roman centered fantasy theme, with some flavors coming in from other areas. Considering the Greco-Roman theme of the game it isn't too far fetched for a character to be like Hercules. Hera forced Hercules to go mad and do awful things which he tried to atone for, I believe on multiple occasions. The character, Like hercules is arguably a demi-god, and has definitely gone through some aedric/daedric mindbending worldbending nonsense. Additionally, you've got potential dragon breaking going on with what meridia did to your character, so maybe different timeline possibilities of yourself are the ones that became a vampire (and stayed that way) or became a werewolf (and stayed that way) or went insane because of Hermaeus or Sheo, or joined the TG or joined the DB. Maybe all those stories are true and none of them at the same time? This definitely reminds me of some old school TES lorebooks that very much represent the way the game is played. I like to say its a matter of dragon breaking. Our characters take a ride on the back's of reality and get bucked about through alternate timelines and personalities. I say roll with it. In some cases they might even be self aware of these things like Vivec.

Samsayia

@dodgehopper_ESO

I had to look up the Dragon Break, and I can say after reading it, you really can't make a case for the Vestige to have anything to do with a dragon break. TES isn't done Crisis on Infinite Earths style here. I disagree with you entirely

dodgehopper_ESO

Samsayia wrote: »

@dodgehopper_ESO

I had to look up the Dragon Break, and I can say after reading it, you really can't make a case for the Vestige to have anything to do with a dragon break. TES isn't done Crisis on Infinite Earths style here. I disagree with you entirely

There are a few strange things going on here. Skyshards. Meridia sending you in alternate realities. I could go further but I don't want to give away all plot points. I can see what you're saying, but the reality is your character mantled the Chim el-adabal, which leads me to think that for all intents you are also dragonborn at that point. Compare to the story of Septim and how there were deaths involved for him to become, or even Alessia.

Samsayia

The skyshards and meridia can't...I mean maybe, but they can't really be evidence of a dragon break, because all dragon breaks are exclusive to Akatosh, so that gets to the other point.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I can see what you're saying, but the reality is your character mantled the Chim el-adabal, which leads me to think that for all intents you are also dragonborn at that point.

I.....wouldn't assume that. Actually this is a question I would seriously press the Devs on. If the vestige is a dragonborn that would....sort of make sense and yet oddly not make any sense at all. I'm not entirely sure what happened in that whole end game stint other than you're glowy and heres pretty golden armor and super powers o__o;

Krist

@Samsayia

I had to look up the Dragon Break, and I can say after reading it, you really can't make a case for the Vestige to have anything to do with a dragon break. TES isn't done Crisis on Infinite Earths style here. I disagree with you entirely

I have a feeling that ESO is being left open for dragon break, If necessary. We are situated between 2E582 and 2E600, could be 2E583 depending on where you fall in the game time. Leaves us 18 years to play with, approximately. Plenty of time for a video game but alot will have to happen within that time to keep players interested. We are now in the interregnum which is what is happening in Cyrodiil and why we have the three banner war, and is part of the canon. What we don't have yet are the new story lines that they will need to develop, and depending on how much it effects the whole time line may well be the factor in whether a dragon break occurs or not.
Quite frankly the entire concept of dragon break was just for this reason.

So what am I saying? I would not completely dismiss the idea that they will form a dragon break at this point. Dragon Breaks can be BIG...and they can be small.

Krist

@mb10
My rp is that my character(s) is not THE Vestige. If I rp'ed him as such, then he could quite possibly run into other Vestiges that did the exact same thing as he did, which of course would be impossible because it was me. In fact, I do not rp my character as the main character in any of the main story lines.

Now my character may be a member of the Fighter's Guild, or fought in Imperial City. A character may have escaped from Coldharbour, maybe even during the chaos that occurred when the Vestige escaped, having lost his own soul until Molag Bal was defeated. Or, I have a mage that has nothing to do with any of that, and is simply just another member of the Mage's Guild....but with his own goals and schemes of power.
One of my characters is a Tailor and Rogue, sometimes even an assassin if need be. He had nothing to do with the main story line, but of course lives in the world that it all happened in.

Long story short, I do not follow the main story with my rp. I play people that live in that time, but are not those heroes....though they may be heroic in their own way.

mb10

@Krist

and I think thats so cool and how you maximise having fun with the game and connecting to those characters.

All your actions then have a purpose.

Thought your RP explanation was cool and interesting

Im glad one of my characters will forever be in TES lore as one of the "false" emporers which of course couldn't possibly have been the vestige. In many ways the game is promoted to be played with RP.

Daimmyo

Since I am not originally English speaking person, not sure how do you define "vestige" - really:

: the last small part that remains of something that existed before

: the smallest possible amount of something

Another thing I guess you can call it motivation in RP kind of sense - at first glance getting into it with the prophet was a matter of desire to be free, even survival for my character as a very proud stick up guy and a member of Ra Gada tribe.

From his perspective, he never trusted a word to Prophet, neither he ever trusted anyone behaving in such manner, especially being shaded as blind mage and all that.

He heard his story though - he always listen to what people got to say - you never know what piece of information may be important there, and so he heard story about Sai Sahan. Figuring out, if respectable member of the tribe was part of this story line there had to be some good reason there. So he decided to get in.

Additional reason is that, my character really likes to *bad elvish language* up so called kings and kingpins. Not because he is necessarily 100% lawful good and all that. More like because he likes the game, and challenge in it. And this Molag Bal thing really had a bling to it.

About vampires, he prefers to kill them as a special kind of care for them. You know.

How about this motivation?

CourtneyManson

How I go about the whole "soulless" thing is that I play a character on the darker side and her reputation is just of being a heartless *** with no soul. Makes me feel the love.

mb10

CourtneyManson wrote: »

How I go about the whole "soulless" thing is that I play a character on the darker side and her reputation is just of being a heartless *** with no soul. Makes me feel the love.

Niceee thats a cool way to go about it too

Tawniey

Its interesting to me that so many people have had a hard time incorporating the Vestige archetype into any of their characters. I found it easy and natural to build a character around the Vestige as I played through on my main. Granted, this is to say that this character is based on the personal-story aspect and has arcs based through several of the area quests, but not all of them. His story also incorporates many other elements from RPs etc with my girlfriend, the main collaborator and cohort.

The way I portray the soulless aspect is kind of as a constant state of disassociation. He's not feeling fully there, ever. It makes it difficult to focus on emotional things, and easy to fall into a repetitive task pattern-- thus the constant helping people with their troubles and tactlessness. I also built on a bit of lore, taking from the ancient Greek myth about the river styx, that azure plasm, as it reforms soulshriven, they lose their memories of their former life. (Seemingly supported by How Long Until The Echoes Fade).

The skyshards re-attuning him to Nirn cause him to regain his memories very slowly, and he reunites with his remaining family, often unable to remember much about them if not who they are entirely.

It makes a very interesting protagonist character to play around with! I've been a fan of playing as the Vestige in my RPs and stories.

I'm actually working on writing out his adventures (much of it is original, it's not just a play by play of the personal story lol). There's a first chapter so far. Would anyone be interested in reading it?

Edit: Here's the link to the forum post of the story~!

Krist

Tawniey wrote: »

I'm actually working on writing out his adventures (much of it is original, it's not just a play by play of the personal story lol). There's a first chapter so far. Would anyone be interested in reading it?

Be happy to read it, so please do. I enjoy reading character stories.

Tawniey

Krist wrote: »

Tawniey wrote: »

I'm actually working on writing out his adventures (much of it is original, it's not just a play by play of the personal story lol). There's a first chapter so far. Would anyone be interested in reading it?

Be happy to read it, so please do. I enjoy reading character stories.

Awesome! Thanks, friend. I edited to post a link in my original comment.

cdebaca

i dont RP main questline - I RP everything else and main quest i just go hard

Korah_Eaglecry

None of my characters are the Vestige, none of them have been to Coldharbor and none of them will ever play that Mary Sue role.

It irks me to no end to see others decide they were the ones that did a particular thing in the game world attributed to the Vestige. Ive known RPers who decided they were best friends with King Jorunn or was the one to save him from Fildgor. For me, anything that everyone else can do with their character is off limits as far as backstory and character development. Its lazy and selfish. Some of the weakest RP/Character Development you could possibly create.

I do this in every MMO that assigns you the role of a singular hero that everyone else just happens to be at the same time. In STO they do the same thing. Youre either the one hero in the Federation, the one hero in the Romulan Republic or the one hero in the Klingon Empire. And all three of my characters there are just individuals in that world that make up the awashed masses in the background. My Feddie Bear is just another Escort Captain in a Task Force. My Romulan Republic character is just a scientist doing what he can to advance the Romulan Republics scientific ventures. My KDF character is just a Mercenary hired on permanently because of his brutality and commitment to getting the job done.

They are all worth while characters to read about and to play as. But they are flawed and far from the RP trap that is the Mary Sue. I also refuse to RP that all of my characters use magic. The ones that make sense to use it do. Enrerion, Aban, Caius, Tenarei and to an extent Laerinel (though Laerinels magic has more to do with being Bosmer than really some sort of affinity for magic use). But Korith, Dazsh and Kheshna are everyday people who turn to cold hard steel to deal with their problems.

When I play through the ESO Storyline be it Main Quest, Guild Quests, Zone Quests or Side Quests. Its me, the player. My primary goal isnt to do the "right thing" in the game world but rather what is the most expedient and self rewarding method. While also learning as much as possible about the games universe as to make sound decisions about just who my characters are and how they fit into that world/universe.

Tawniey

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

None of my characters are the Vestige, none of them have been to Coldharbor and none of them will ever play that Mary Sue role.

It irks me to no end to see others decide they were the ones that did a particular thing in the game world attributed to the Vestige. Ive known RPers who decided they were best friends with King Jorunn or was the one to save him from Fildgor. For me, anything that everyone else can do with their character is off limits as far as backstory and character development. Its lazy and selfish. Some of the weakest RP/Character Development you could possibly create.

Woah there, friend, you might need to slow down.

Listen, I know there is a heavy stigma against heroic archetypes in our society today, but the fact of the matter is that the difference between a "Mary Sue" and Batman comes down to good writing. The writing flaws you're perceiving are the inability to create more than 2-dimensional characters, so they don't feel real enough to you. That has nothing to do with the traits given to a character or their connection to the main storyline.

The fact of the matter is that interesting storylines come from characters that have interesting things happen to them. Roleplaying as Jack Nobody, the Ultra Flawed Character with no useful talents where nothing ever happens to him is going to be jut as one-dimensional as The Flawless Hero, and just as boring to read.

If you don't like to RP main storyline, that's one thing, and I can't stop you nor will I judge you, but please try not to use blanket labels and write off huge parts of potential story arcs as "bad writing", "lazy", "selfish", or "weak character development".

dodgehopper_ESO

I don't RP so my opinions are really settled on a different side than what some of you guys state. I just take in the story from a perspective and roll with it. The reality is I probably really only take the first character's 'story' seriously. My viewpoint is more from a sense of perspective to fill in the gaps and make the game world feel alive. My first character was an Imperial Templar, a Legatus who rebelled against Mannimarco and paid the price. In essence it is a very knightly/soldierly role and I ran through for the most part with a very heroic theme (except for a couple missclicks, before I realized you could abandon a quest). There were a few acts that didn't make sense to me for my character, like that sanguine delve in Shadowfen. He's a templar knight/legionnaire with a code of conduct and honor, I just couldn't see tossing people to oblivion like that - but it was the only option given.

I have gotten into the story similarly with other characters, but I find the more I've done the story the less engrossing it is. New characters aren't so much about story as they are about gameplay.

Ilsabet

In my own head, which is the only thing that matters to me since I don't RP with others, my character does all the stuff she does in the game. I might put my own spin on things, even to the point of imagining scenes that don't actually happen and conveniently ignoring the other people doing the same Coldharbour quests as me, but her character journey includes being the Vestige and saving the world and all that stuff. It's entirely possible to be fully aware that I'm a real person playing a MMO and also have the imagination to treat my character and her actions as "real" in the context of the story, as it suits me.

My other characters, when I start playing with them, will also be the Vestige, because I can treat each one independently with her own story (which might just happen to be very similar to the other characters' separate stories).

SirAndy

I didn't really have any trouble including the "vestige" label into the backstory on any of my characters.

For them, the whole questline is simply a string of "chores" they have to endure to get to kick Molag Bal's butt and get their soul back.

All of this is temporary, was forced upon them and will be forgotten once Molag Bal has been defeated.

menedhyn

I have only created a few characters so far, but I haven't played as 'the vestige' yet. This is simply because my preference for RP lies with the everyday sort of folk, the weaker characters, or the supporting roles. I'm not a huge fan of playing the hero or someone who excels at being a mage or a fighter or whatever, but there has to be something I do that elevates my character from being the equivalent of an NPC. I have included elements of the main storyline to help describe a situation, or to provide a bit of background, and so far i'm reasonably happy with this approach. It may sound a bit dull to some, and I accept that!

Whatever type of character people choose to play, or however they choose to RP, I respect and admire them for playing in such a way that allows them to immerse themselves into the game. Each to their own, I say.

Shunravi

Im sorry if the thread already moved past it, but I wanted to elaborate the fan theory of this game occurring in a dragon break. (I carry a summary in my signature.... Im somewhat invested.) This is more to flesh out why this is a fan theory...


Also, SPOILERS. And text wall...


So, I guess I should touch on a few things that have been brought up already, but to start, I feel I should build the foundation.

So, a dragon break is an event where linear time is broken, and becomes non-linear. This is an event that directly involves the Dragon, Akatosh. It just so happens that the events of eso are directly caused by something that very much does involve Akatosh. When Manimarco tricks Varen Aquilarios into extinguishing the dragonfires this is not some minor event. The soulburst is a massive cataclysm that sent mages mad, shook skyrim and the red mountain and caused storms across southern Tamriel. This event warped the Mundus such that the serpent constellation grew across the sky.

The Dragonfires are key here because they are the binding tie between Akatosh and Alessia, as part of their covenant, and are what reinforce the Mundus against the Daedra. Effectively what keeps Daedra out. As they are the blood of Akatosh, I would say extinguishing them is a pretty substantial move directly against him. Not to mention the effects on the rest of the Mundus. So I would say this is at least a good setup for a dragonbreak.

Ok, now for whats been addressed in the thread.

We have the skyshards. Now, to elaborate on this, I will bring up a Wayshrines of Tamriel from ESO, which brings up an interesting aspect of the nature of mortals and the Mundus. Namely, that mortals are "moored" to the mundus. And as mortality is an aspect of the mundus... Anyways.


Skyshards Are what Akatosh uses to re-moor a soul shriven to the Mundus. In essence, the one that you use in coldharbor before returning to the Mundus is a lifeline that pulls you back. But i would raise the question if it actually remoors the vestige, or simply remains that lifeline. Beings not part of the Mundus will eventually evaporate out, this is what happens to daedra. We accelerate the evaporation by breaking their corporeal state, they dont die. So what happens to the shriven after all the events of eso...

Now one of the more interesting things to discuss, and that is the nature of Meridia. Namely, that it is thought she is a Magna Ge, or essentially, a being that could have been an Aedra, but left the Mundus along with Magnus. Incidentally, this would also make her a star. This gives her a rather unique difference from the rest of the Daedra, being that some part of her being is actually part of the creation of the Mundus, and is at the very least a scar in its fabric being a star.

Now, here's an interesting speculation, and im wondering if Bethesda and ZOS are saying that this is in some way an aspect of Magna Ge. "Mnemoli the Blue Star, or Mnemo-Li, is the most well-known Magna Ge. She is associated with "un-time" events, and it is said that she was visible even in the daytime sky during the Dragon Break. Merid-Nunda was once one of the Magna Ge before she consorted with the Daedra and became the Daedric Prince Meridia." Does Meridia, having been a Magna Ge, have some unique way to interact with Dragonbreaks? If so, then this would explain her involvement with the plot of ESO to some extent. Especially if it combines with her 'ability' of Daedric influence.

Now, I want to touch a bit on time in TES. There is an interesting thing to be said about how time actually works in TES bue to Akatosh being bound to the Mundus, a realm effectively separate from the rest of existence to a degree. What im speculating at here is that the mundus is the only place wherin time strictly 'flows.' Once you are out of the mundus in a place like say, Coldharbor, how much does the consistency of time actually effect you? Especially in the event of a dragonbreak where time is not under control...

There has been a lot of... outrage in how meridia and cadwell do the whole 'go back in time to experience another path' thing. But with Meridia's connection to the Mundus, and the potential nature of Magna Ge, I would put forth that if this is indeed a dragonbreak, it could make perfect sense in how its done. Namely, Meridia has a connection to the status of time in the mundus, and is able to use this to place a being that is loosely attached (moored) to the the mundus back into a place in the time period.

Stuff addressed in addendum in my signature

if you choose to look at it in this way, there are multiple instances of vestiges occurring at once. Are we all echos of who we were in life, all experiencing similar things along the same distorted timeframe? Keep in mind that this relies heavily buying into the convoluted nature i have speculated about above with Meridia, and then going a step further to suggest multiple simultaneous events.

Things occur like the anchors still dropping even after you have completed the main story. This also holds true for the one over the White Gold Tower after finishing the dungeon. So, is this a loose time sort of thing, or do we chalk it up to MMO?

Spacetime is shifting, things aren't constant, What does this mean for balance . They are constantly balancing the game, as it is a persistant active online world. In my opinion, a dragonbreak may also be worked to explain balance and patches in a lore approved form.

Cyrodill campaigns reset, ebb and flow, and well... idk...

Anyways, if anyone reads this, I would love feedback.

Also, @dodgehopper_ESO, is this what you were aluding to more or less?

Also, @UrQuan, @Gidorick, my lore friends

Korah_Eaglecry

Tawniey wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

None of my characters are the Vestige, none of them have been to Coldharbor and none of them will ever play that Mary Sue role.

It irks me to no end to see others decide they were the ones that did a particular thing in the game world attributed to the Vestige. Ive known RPers who decided they were best friends with King Jorunn or was the one to save him from Fildgor. For me, anything that everyone else can do with their character is off limits as far as backstory and character development. Its lazy and selfish. Some of the weakest RP/Character Development you could possibly create.

Woah there, friend, you might need to slow down.

Listen, I know there is a heavy stigma against heroic archetypes in our society today, but the fact of the matter is that the difference between a "Mary Sue" and Batman comes down to good writing. The writing flaws you're perceiving are the inability to create more than 2-dimensional characters, so they don't feel real enough to you. That has nothing to do with the traits given to a character or their connection to the main storyline.

The fact of the matter is that interesting storylines come from characters that have interesting things happen to them. Roleplaying as Jack Nobody, the Ultra Flawed Character with no useful talents where nothing ever happens to him is going to be jut as one-dimensional as The Flawless Hero, and just as boring to read.

If you don't like to RP main storyline, that's one thing, and I can't stop you nor will I judge you, but please try not to use blanket labels and write off huge parts of potential story arcs as "bad writing", "lazy", "selfish", or "weak character development".

When you take someone elses story and make it your own its lazy, selfish and weak character development. Plain and simple. No where do I state that my characters are Jack Nobodies. They have their talents, they accomplish what they set out to do. But they dont need to be a Mary Sue to do it and I dont need someone elses story to tell my characters story. Seems I struck a cord here with you to get so defensive when I referenced absolutely NOTHING in your posts.

And I find it hilarious you would call flawed characters 2 dimensional while admitting to directly ripping the Vestige Storyline to fill your apparently 3 dimensional characters backstory. What a laugh.

dodgehopper_ESO

Ilsabet wrote: »

In my own head, which is the only thing that matters to me since I don't RP with others, my character does all the stuff she does in the game. I might put my own spin on things, even to the point of imagining scenes that don't actually happen and conveniently ignoring the other people doing the same Coldharbour quests as me, but her character journey includes being the Vestige and saving the world and all that stuff. It's entirely possible to be fully aware that I'm a real person playing a MMO and also have the imagination to treat my character and her actions as "real" in the context of the story, as it suits me.

My other characters, when I start playing with them, will also be the Vestige, because I can treat each one independently with her own story (which might just happen to be very similar to the other characters' separate stories).

This is another way of saying exactly what I was trying to say.
Which reminds me, there are some battles that were so cool I wish I could do like in City of Heroes and replay old missions. I would love to be able to melt Molag Bal again at the final showdown with the same character. That final battle at least from a story perspective is really cool, and I loved it.

dodgehopper_ESO

Shunravi wrote: »

Im sorry if the thread already moved past it, but I wanted to elaborate the fan theory of this game occurring in a dragon break. (I carry a summary in my signature.... Im somewhat invested.) This is more to flesh out why this is a fan theory...


Also, SPOILERS. And text wall...


So, I guess I should touch on a few things that have been brought up already, but to start, I feel I should build the foundation.

So, a dragon break is an event where linear time is broken, and becomes non-linear. This is an event that directly involves the Dragon, Akatosh. It just so happens that the events of eso are directly caused by something that very much does involve Akatosh. When Manimarco tricks Varen Aquilarios into extinguishing the dragonfires this is not some minor event. The soulburst is a massive cataclysm that sent mages mad, shook skyrim and the red mountain and caused storms across southern Tamriel. This event warped the Mundus such that the serpent constellation grew across the sky.

The Dragonfires are key here because they are the binding tie between Akatosh and Alessia, as part of their covenant, and are what reinforce the Mundus against the Daedra. Effectively what keeps Daedra out. As they are the blood of Akatosh, I would say extinguishing them is a pretty substantial move directly against him. Not to mention the effects on the rest of the Mundus. So I would say this is at least a good setup for a dragonbreak.

Ok, now for whats been addressed in the thread.

We have the skyshards. Now, to elaborate on this, I will bring up a Wayshrines of Tamriel from ESO, which brings up an interesting aspect of the nature of mortals and the Mundus. Namely, that mortals are "moored" to the mundus. And as mortality is an aspect of the mundus... Anyways.


Skyshards Are what Akatosh uses to re-moor a soul shriven to the Mundus. In essence, the one that you use in coldharbor before returning to the Mundus is a lifeline that pulls you back. But i would raise the question if it actually remoors the vestige, or simply remains that lifeline. Beings not part of the Mundus will eventually evaporate out, this is what happens to daedra. We accelerate the evaporation by breaking their corporeal state, they dont die. So what happens to the shriven after all the events of eso...

Now one of the more interesting things to discuss, and that is the nature of Meridia. Namely, that it is thought she is a Magna Ge, or essentially, a being that could have been an Aedra, but left the Mundus along with Magnus. Incidentally, this would also make her a star. This gives her a rather unique difference from the rest of the Daedra, being that some part of her being is actually part of the creation of the Mundus, and is at the very least a scar in its fabric being a star.

Now, here's an interesting speculation, and im wondering if Bethesda and ZOS are saying that this is in some way an aspect of Magna Ge. "Mnemoli the Blue Star, or Mnemo-Li, is the most well-known Magna Ge. She is associated with "un-time" events, and it is said that she was visible even in the daytime sky during the Dragon Break. Merid-Nunda was once one of the Magna Ge before she consorted with the Daedra and became the Daedric Prince Meridia." Does Meridia, having been a Magna Ge, have some unique way to interact with Dragonbreaks? If so, then this would explain her involvement with the plot of ESO to some extent. Especially if it combines with her 'ability' of Daedric influence.

Now, I want to touch a bit on time in TES. There is an interesting thing to be said about how time actually works in TES bue to Akatosh being bound to the Mundus, a realm effectively separate from the rest of existence to a degree. What im speculating at here is that the mundus is the only place wherin time strictly 'flows.' Once you are out of the mundus in a place like say, Coldharbor, how much does the consistency of time actually effect you? Especially in the event of a dragonbreak where time is not under control...

There has been a lot of... outrage in how meridia and cadwell do the whole 'go back in time to experience another path' thing. But with Meridia's connection to the Mundus, and the potential nature of Magna Ge, I would put forth that if this is indeed a dragonbreak, it could make perfect sense in how its done. Namely, Meridia has a connection to the status of time in the mundus, and is able to use this to place a being that is loosely attached (moored) to the the mundus back into a place in the time period.

Stuff addressed in addendum in my signature

if you choose to look at it in this way, there are multiple instances of vestiges occurring at once. Are we all echos of who we were in life, all experiencing similar things along the same distorted timeframe? Keep in mind that this relies heavily buying into the convoluted nature i have speculated about above with Meridia, and then going a step further to suggest multiple simultaneous events.

Things occur like the anchors still dropping even after you have completed the main story. This also holds true for the one over the White Gold Tower after finishing the dungeon. So, is this a loose time sort of thing, or do we chalk it up to MMO?

Spacetime is shifting, things aren't constant, What does this mean for balance . They are constantly balancing the game, as it is a persistant active online world. In my opinion, a dragonbreak may also be worked to explain balance and patches in a lore approved form.

Cyrodill campaigns reset, ebb and flow, and well... idk...

Anyways, if anyone reads this, I would love feedback.

Also, @dodgehopper_ESO, is this what you were aluding to more or less?

Also, @UrQuan, @Gidorick, my lore friends

Absolutely and definitely. I do think there are a few interesting other issues going on as well, and I think Daggerfall in many ways sets the stage for exactly what you are talking about. Themes in various lorebooks in all of the previous games also open things up for what you are talking about. The whole convoluted nature of Vivec and the rest of it also lays a lot of groundwork here. The fusion of Auri-El and Shor are also interesting in the understanding of Akatosh (The Eagle and the Snake becomes Dragon).

By merit of what the character does in ESO it definitely is of mythic proportion. You're somehow able to gain power from nirn stones which are a gift from Akatosh that moor you to the mundus. Without those nirnstones powering you up you're little more than a vestige, which is a little less than a daedra in some ways. It is my belief that the Vestige becomes a dragonborn like Septim or Alessia when there is that moment of sacrifice and he has his final battle with Molag Bal. I see here the clash of anuic (nirn stone) and padomaic (creatia) energy here, resulting in the freaks that our character's become. Once we get our souls back we are also still a mixture of anuic and padomaic. I believe Meridia's angle in all of this is that she fends for life, which means she's really against the realms of Oblivion, or on the front lines of it. Meridia represents that strange mixture of anuic and padomaic that are also summed up in our characters (though I suspect Malacath and Sheogorath might be similar in some respects as well). I think the reason that Molag suggests that his plan isn't over, is that the Vestiges existence still has some remainder of those outer planes (creatia essence) which continually leave openings for all daedra. Eventually some solution occurs finally allowing the stability of Septims empire whereby Tamriel isn't overrun by immortal vestiges who duke it out in alliance war. :P

Tawniey

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Tawniey wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

None of my characters are the Vestige, none of them have been to Coldharbor and none of them will ever play that Mary Sue role.

It irks me to no end to see others decide they were the ones that did a particular thing in the game world attributed to the Vestige. Ive known RPers who decided they were best friends with King Jorunn or was the one to save him from Fildgor. For me, anything that everyone else can do with their character is off limits as far as backstory and character development. Its lazy and selfish. Some of the weakest RP/Character Development you could possibly create.

Woah there, friend, you might need to slow down.

Listen, I know there is a heavy stigma against heroic archetypes in our society today, but the fact of the matter is that the difference between a "Mary Sue" and Batman comes down to good writing. The writing flaws you're perceiving are the inability to create more than 2-dimensional characters, so they don't feel real enough to you. That has nothing to do with the traits given to a character or their connection to the main storyline.

The fact of the matter is that interesting storylines come from characters that have interesting things happen to them. Roleplaying as Jack Nobody, the Ultra Flawed Character with no useful talents where nothing ever happens to him is going to be jut as one-dimensional as The Flawless Hero, and just as boring to read.

If you don't like to RP main storyline, that's one thing, and I can't stop you nor will I judge you, but please try not to use blanket labels and write off huge parts of potential story arcs as "bad writing", "lazy", "selfish", or "weak character development".

When you take someone elses story and make it your own its lazy, selfish and weak character development. Plain and simple. No where do I state that my characters are Jack Nobodies. They have their talents, they accomplish what they set out to do. But they dont need to be a Mary Sue to do it and I dont need someone elses story to tell my characters story. Seems I struck a cord here with you to get so defensive when I referenced absolutely NOTHING in your posts.

And I find it hilarious you would call flawed characters 2 dimensional while admitting to directly ripping the Vestige Storyline to fill your apparently 3 dimensional characters backstory. What a laugh.

Well, friendo, first of all, I never said your characters were Jack Nobodies, nor did I make any mention to my own characters. I was stating in generalizations against the idea of "Mary Sue"s existing at all, which there has been literature about that I could cite for days.
I've studied the art of storytelling for the last 24 years. Trust me when I say that nothing is truly original. Orson Scott Card once put it like this: An author drags an idea net behind them, collecting bits and pieces of other stories which eventually become their own fiction. Tropes exist for a reason-- they are storytelling shorthand. They are used to quickly communicate an idea that would otherwise take the entirety of the book to write out.

Now, can we please address the fact that you are literally coming into a thread and bashing creators who utilize a different part of the story than you do to create their fan works, when you are in fact also using someone else's story to create your story. You are creating characters within a world that does not belong to you. They do not stand alone.

Korah_Eaglecry

Tawniey wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Tawniey wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

None of my characters are the Vestige, none of them have been to Coldharbor and none of them will ever play that Mary Sue role.

It irks me to no end to see others decide they were the ones that did a particular thing in the game world attributed to the Vestige. Ive known RPers who decided they were best friends with King Jorunn or was the one to save him from Fildgor. For me, anything that everyone else can do with their character is off limits as far as backstory and character development. Its lazy and selfish. Some of the weakest RP/Character Development you could possibly create.

Woah there, friend, you might need to slow down.

Listen, I know there is a heavy stigma against heroic archetypes in our society today, but the fact of the matter is that the difference between a "Mary Sue" and Batman comes down to good writing. The writing flaws you're perceiving are the inability to create more than 2-dimensional characters, so they don't feel real enough to you. That has nothing to do with the traits given to a character or their connection to the main storyline.

The fact of the matter is that interesting storylines come from characters that have interesting things happen to them. Roleplaying as Jack Nobody, the Ultra Flawed Character with no useful talents where nothing ever happens to him is going to be jut as one-dimensional as The Flawless Hero, and just as boring to read.

If you don't like to RP main storyline, that's one thing, and I can't stop you nor will I judge you, but please try not to use blanket labels and write off huge parts of potential story arcs as "bad writing", "lazy", "selfish", or "weak character development".

When you take someone elses story and make it your own its lazy, selfish and weak character development. Plain and simple. No where do I state that my characters are Jack Nobodies. They have their talents, they accomplish what they set out to do. But they dont need to be a Mary Sue to do it and I dont need someone elses story to tell my characters story. Seems I struck a cord here with you to get so defensive when I referenced absolutely NOTHING in your posts.

And I find it hilarious you would call flawed characters 2 dimensional while admitting to directly ripping the Vestige Storyline to fill your apparently 3 dimensional characters backstory. What a laugh.

Well, friendo, first of all, I never said your characters were Jack Nobodies, nor did I make any mention to my own characters. I was stating in generalizations against the idea of "Mary Sue"s existing at all, which there has been literature about that I could cite for days.
I've studied the art of storytelling for the last 24 years. Trust me when I say that nothing is truly original. Orson Scott Card once put it like this: An author drags an idea net behind them, collecting bits and pieces of other stories which eventually become their own fiction. Tropes exist for a reason-- they are storytelling shorthand. They are used to quickly communicate an idea that would otherwise take the entirety of the book to write out.

Now, can we please address the fact that you are literally coming into a thread and bashing creators who utilize a different part of the story than you do to create their fan works, when you are in fact also using someone else's story to create your story. You are creating characters within a world that does not belong to you. They do not stand alone.

You quoted me then referred directly to flawed characters which I explicitly talked about in my post. Am I supposed to assume youre talking about someone else playing flawed characters? Especially when you decided to try and turn it into a debate over how interesting Heroic characters are versus Jack Nobodies. Trying to deny it now is a little too late dont you think? Its also quite funny you make generalizations about 'Jack Nobodies' while asking me not to make generalizations. Way to be a progressive there. And are you seriously trying to use Orson Scott Card to defend you deciding to directly use the Vestige storyline to fill your own? I wonder how he might feel about that.

And Ill close with this. I made no mention of particular creators (honestly if you cant come up with your own material Im not sure you earned the right to call yourself that) in this thread but YOU took personal offense to it and no one else. So maybe, just maybe this is more about your ego then it is about righting some imaginary wrong you feel Ive committed. I have every right to express my opinion here as you do. And since I didnt direct any of my comments at someone, unlike you, I dont care to apologize or act as if I did something wrong to make you feel justified and right. Theres also a huge difference between assuming a role in a world and deciding to take on the very character that we all share.Now Im done debating this with you because honestly at this point I dont feel like continuing to stroke your ego.