Maths Required: Infused v Divines

Sunburnt_Penguin

Does anyone know the maths or where I can find it for myself on how the different pieces of Infused and Divines affect your weapon damage when using Tower and Warrior Mundus Stones for V16 gear?

I know that all Divines with Warrior will be greater but I'm interested to see by how much when compared to the below situations because if I may be willing to sacrifice some WD for a higher Max Stam:
1. 3x infused and 4 divines using Warrior
2. 3x infused and 4 divines using Tower
3. 7x divines using Tower
4. 7x infused using Warrior

Thanks

Edit: apologies.. I meant Warrior not Shadow - corrected now.

kadar

I'm curious about this as well! If I recall, I was told that 10 Stam = 1 Weapon damage. Since both stats increase your tooltip values, it's important to have both at high levels.

You can find values for x7 Gold quality divines with various Mundus Stones here:
http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Mundus+Stones

Asayre

You'll need to provide additional details such as your current max stamina, weapon damage, critical chance, critical modifier (extra damage you do when you crit).

Sunburnt_Penguin

@The_Outsider yeah that's roughly what I've been told as well. Any idea if the first numbers below are without Divines traits? I'll do the maths then

Warrior
Increases Weapon Damage by 166
213 with 7 Legendary Divine Traits

• Tower
Increases Maximum Stamina by 1280
1952 with 7 Legendary Divine Traits

Morozov

be careful, @Asayre will blind you with math

Sunburnt_Penguin

@Asayre

Thank you but I'm only deliberating on what to put on my first V16 gear so I don't know how I'd get accurate figures for all of that.

Reorx_Holybeard

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

Does anyone know the maths or where I can find it for myself on how the different pieces of Infused and Divines affect your weapon damage when using Tower and Shadow Mundus Stones for V16 gear?

I know that all Divines with Shadow will be greater but I'm interested to see by how much when compared to the below situations because if I may be willing to sacrifice some WD for a higher Max Stam:
1. 3x infused and 4 divines using Shadow
2. 3x infused and 4 divines using Tower
3. 7x divines using Tower
4. 7x infused using Shadow

Thanks

Some very basic comparisons:

1. 519 Stamina (173*3), Shadow with 4 gold divines = 15.6% Crit Damage
2. 519 Stamina plus 1664 Stamina = 2183 Stamina
3. 1952 Stamina
4. 351+519 = 870 Stamina and 12% Crit Damage

Unfortunately, from here it gets "complicated" as it depends on your current stats and specific skill as Asayre can explain better if you wish. If I assume you have a 60% crit rate with a 1.6x (60%) crit damage modifier and looking at the Wrecking Blow skill which has a 10k tooltip (13.6k average):

1. +78 dmg from Stamina +15.6% Crit Dmg = 14.65k average
2. +327 dmg = 14.04k average
3. +293 dmg = 14.00k average
4. +131 dmg +12% Crit Dmg = 14.51k average

So in this particular situation the x3 Infused + x4 Divines w/ Shadow is the better choice. A few notes/caveats on this however:

• The average skill damage I compute is just an average based on your tooltip and crit rate/damage bonus. It is a relatively quick way to compare setups for a particular skill.

  Average = Tooltip * (1 - CritRate) + Tooltip * CritRate * CritDamageBonus
  

• This doesn't take into account CPs, skill passives, or buffs. Ideally you'd want to get tooltip values from your actual skills to get more accurate numbers. For example, if you have any +Stamina% passives it would increase the effectiveness of the +Stamina builds some.
• I used Wrecking Blow for the example skill and assume it uses the below equation. This skill has a higher coefficient for Stamina than other skills (ranges from 0 to 0.15 typically) so most other skills would be less affected by Stamina increases. I'm not sure how to calculate a more general damage increase, assuming that is actually possible.

  Tooltip = 0.15363 Stamina + 1.613 WeaponDamage + 2.74804
  

Edit: Using Warior Instead of Shadow

1. 3x infused and 4 divines using Warrior
2. 3x infused and 4 divines using Tower
3. 7x divines using Tower
4. 7x infused using Warrior

A little bit easier as we can consider 1 WD = 10.5 Stamina and not have to look at skill averages:

1. + 519 Stamina + 216 WD = 2787
2. +2183 Stamina = 2183
3. +1952 Stamina = 1952
4. +870 Stamina + 166 WD = 2613

So #1 wins again. To be more accurate you can look at exactly how much Stamina you get worn and the same for Weapon Damage and use the 1:10.5 ratio or look at tooltips and calculate the average skill damage for each combination.

Sunburnt_Penguin

@Reorx_Holybeard

Thank you but sorry, I made an error in the OP and meant Warrior, not Shadow

-_-

Sunburnt_Penguin

@Reorx_Holybeard

Okay, I've just done the maths myself and from solely looking Stamina glyphs, Infused & Divines traits and buffs from Warrior & Tower Mundus Stones (ESO wiki) - these are the bonuses:

Set Number (in order of my spreadsheet: not preference or how I arranged before):
1. 7 Infused w, Warrior: 4791 Stam & 622 WD
2. 7 Infused w, Tower: 6071 Stam & 578 WD
3. 7 Divines w, Warrior: 3993 Stam & 593 WD
4. 7 Divines w, Tower: 5945 Stam & 566 WD
5. 3 Infused & 4 Divines w, Warrior: 4514 Stam & 623 WD
6. 3 Infused & 4 Divines w, Tower: 6178 Stam & 588 WD

What i find interesting (which may be common knowledge but it's new to me) is that if you want to increase your stamina, you're better off using Tower with Infused on the larger pieces because the individual 20% multiplier effect of 174 plus the base Mundus effect of 183 is greater than the 279 from Divines.

If 10% racial passives come in to effect on the resulting stamina increases and subsequently increase your WD, the figures end up as follows:
1. 5270 Stam & 668 WD
2. 6678 Stam & 636 WD
3. 4392 Stam & 631 WD
4. 6539 Stam & 623 WD
5. 4965 Stam & 666 WD
6. 6795 Stam & 647 WD

Furthermore, if any other stamina increases also come in to effect on these resulting stamina increases then it's likely that the differences in WD will be further marginalised.

Although, I am just using Excel for this using basic info and I may be missing something crucial so anyone, please come in and discredit this.

Asayre

It's not very clear how you are calculating those numbers @Sunburnt_Penguin. If I were to compare Set 1 and Set 3, you're claiming that going from 7 Infused to 7 Divines leads to a net stamina loss of 798 and a weapon damage loss of 29. I would expect stamina to go down but weapon damage to go up. Additionally, the Warrior provides 166 base weapon damage that is typically increased to 199 from Major Brutality, I'm not sure how you are getting 622 Weapon Damage for Set 1. The stamina bonus from Infused is increased by CP and Skills including Racial passives and Undaunted. You should compare this final stamina bonus to the final weapon damage bonus after common buffs like Major Brutality.

Edit: It looks like you are dividing your Stamina by 10.5 and adding it to your weapon damage. If you do this you should understand that this is for calculating how it affects your tooltip. Your actual weapon damage will not change as you vary your stamina. It would be safer to call your "Stamina/10.5 + Weapon Damage" your effective weapon damage or something else to avoid confusion.

Sunburnt_Penguin

Thanks @Asayre, you were spot on with your edit that's exactly how I was calculating WD as I wasn't aware that stamina increases only affected your tooltip damage and not character's WD.

Following on from that though - and apologies in advance for my lack of knowledge - but how in Laymen's terms do tooltip and WD differ? I've tried to google but my knowledge on the mechanics/calcs is fairly limited so it's just gone over my head.

Asayre

As @Reorx_Holybeard pointed out, most ability tooltips can be calculated as a weighted sum of your stamina and weapon damage. To simplify things a bit you can just use this

Tooltip = Skill Coefficient *  (Stamina + 10.5*Weapon Damage)

where Skill Coefficient depends on the skill and is not very important here. So if you had 35,000 Stamina and 3500 Weapon damage most of your tooltips can be estimated with something like

Tooltip = Skill Coefficient * (35000+ 10.5*3500) = Skill Coefficient * 71750

The number 71750 can be referred to as an Effective Max Stamina.

What you were doing was almost right as was @Reorx_Holybeard post. You seem to be on the right path and I won't want to detract your Excel work. You just need to modify the stamina by Champion points and Skills and the weapon damage by Skills. At the CP cap, the stamina gain from CP is 1.18 and I would expect stamina to be increased by a further 16% (10% from Racial passives and 6% from Undaunted). The two factors are multiplicative. So for example, going from Divines to Infused on a large piece while keeping the Warrior mundus will increase your max stamina by

173 [Difference between Infused and Divines] * 1.18 [Max CP] * 1.16 [Skills] ~ 237 Max Stamina

The weapon damage from the Warrior mundus will typically be increased by 20% (Major Brutality). So going from Divines to Infused, I would expect a loss of

166*0.075*1.2 ~ 15 Weapon Damage

In summary, going from Divines to Infused on a large piece with the Warrior mundus results in a gain of 237 Max Stamina but a loss of 15 Weapon Damage. Since 15 Weapon Damage is equivalent to ~157.5 Effective Max Stamina. The overall Effective Max Stamina gained is 237 - 157.5 = 79.5 . If we go back to the top where I assumed 35k Stamina and 3500 Weapon Damage, this increase of 79.5 effective max stamina is an increase of around 0.1% for all your tooltip (79.5/71750*100). And to go back to your initial question in this scenario using Infused on your large piece instead of divines not only increases your max stamina but also increases your tooltip by ~0.1%.

I'm positive you can repeat this calculation for the remainder of your cases.

Sunburnt_Penguin

@Asayre

Thank you very much, I'll look in to this when I get some time.

Panth141

@Asayre

As a physicist and overall numberphile, I cannot put into words how happy you make me feel

Morozov

aaaand now im blind

LadyNalcarya

@Asayre

Amdar_Godkiller

Why do 7 divines only increase weapon damage by 47? Isn't that only about 28%?

MuddledMuppet

Panth141 wrote: »

@Asayre

As a physicist and overall numberphile, I cannot put into words how happy you make me feel

Hey, firstly, I've lost count at how many times I've been amazed at your math skills & knowledge!

With apologies to op, could I ask if you've ever ran any numbers on some of the dot sets like syvarras etc? As an old guy with slow reflexes and a complete inability to master animation cancelling, I'm always on the lookout to maximise my own personal potential whilst ackowleding it will be lower than truly skilled players.

As a for instance, using poison mist to proc syvarras, skoria, baharras whilst reducing incoming DMG etc.

Just wondered if you have any info on such sets?

Sunburnt_Penguin

@MuddledMuppet no worries, this thread served its purpose a while ago

MrTarkanian48

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

@The_Outsider yeah that's roughly what I've been told as well. Any idea if the first numbers below are without Divines traits? I'll do the maths then

Warrior
Increases Weapon Damage by 166
213 with 7 Legendary Divine Traits

• Tower
Increases Maximum Stamina by 1280
1952 with 7 Legendary Divine Traits

Amdar_Godkiller wrote: »

Why do 7 divines only increase weapon damage by 47? Isn't that only about 28%?

The_Outsider wrote: »

I'm curious about this as well! If I recall, I was told that 10 Stam = 1 Weapon damage. Since both stats increase your tooltip values, it's important to have both at high levels.

You can find values for x7 Gold quality divines with various Mundus Stones here:
http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Mundus+Stones

I have found that all values on this webpage appear accurate except for the Warrior and Apprentice.

7x Divines provides a 1.525x multiplier to your Mundus effect.

166*1.525=253 WD/SD for the Warrior/Apprentice respectively.

I tested this yesterday and confirmed that these are the actual values.

Amdar_Godkiller

You are a good man, @MrTarkanian48 . It's a frequently posted falsehood, then. For the warrior 1 divines ~ 12.5 weapon damage.

Asayre

MuddledMuppet wrote: »

With apologies to op, could I ask if you've ever ran any numbers on some of the dot sets like syvarras etc? As an old guy with slow reflexes and a complete inability to master animation cancelling, I'm always on the lookout to maximise my own personal potential whilst ackowleding it will be lower than truly skilled players.

As a for instance, using poison mist to proc syvarras, skoria, baharras whilst reducing incoming DMG etc.

Just wondered if you have any info on such sets?

@MuddledMuppet , Sorry could you clarify your question a bit?