Shield Stacking: Why popular methods of "fixes" won't work

xEcthelionx

The goal of this post is to explain why certain popular methods fail to address the real issue behind shield stacking. It will break down the myths of "X" nerf working and will attempt to generate a better understanding of the issues presented to the players and the developers.

The numbers: (At low health with 100pts into bastion)

Average healing ward ~2k+cost ~10-13.5k shield after % gain
Average igneous shield: 2k+cost ~4k shield
Average conjured ward: 2k+cost ~12k-14k shield
Average wrecking blow: ~1600cost 13k tooltip
Crit build WB crit (1.7*13000)/2 = 11k


1. Make them crittable

In theory, this sounds great. It also significantly benefits the Stam Sorcerer who cannot utilize one of its main functions without critting. If we look at the numbers: allowing shields to be crittable could make them useless (13k healing ward at 2k+ cost vs. 11k WB at ~1600 cost). Even with impen vs. a crit build the modifier is at 1.3 and the number changes to: 8500wb. It will feel wonderful to be able to smack a shield stacking sorcerer; however, it will hurt Magicka DK, Magicka NB, and Templar's that use healing ward combined with a small trashy shield.

Source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ktbYDsiyI7W6v5k2JFSHJPSUw5p0RRaIW_-K3MBIbr8/htmlview?pli=1

2. Make them have an increased cost after use

The last time this type of mechanic was implemented, stamina sorcerers lost out on viable use of streak and all magicka users were penalized for using roll dodge while stamina users that have ample recovery can still spam roll dodge. No stamina user is viably using shields though. If all shields are given a debuff: Magicka classes like DK or Templar will be hurt because their class shield sucks while Magicka NB won't be hurt too much but will still feel the effects. Sorcerers, the main source of ire will be okay because they will still be able to cast both healing and empowered ward before streaking away or cc'ing/dps'ing while the cooldown timer wears off because their class shield is so powerful.

3. Remove shield breaker (the kind of cheesy garbage you can get from fast food restaurants), which by the way, the removal of was advocated by solid PC players like Yuke and his entire guild before it even hit live and address the issue: give hardened ward a 10%, 15%, or 20% reduced effect and add 12%, 8%, 4% increased cost. I think 20% is too much and 10% is too small but something in the middle still makes the class playable and mistakes punishable without breaking every other class that uses shields.

Shields are perceived as a problem and vigorously debated but one statement we can all agree with: you never hear someone complaining about DK shield stacking, Templar shield stacking, or NB shield stacking. There is one class that has a fundamental issue with the strength of its class shield and that is sorcerer. Do not nerf the shield so that it is worthless like igneous shield or blazing shield currently. Buff those shields to where they are useable and bring empowered ward down to that level. With the exceptional defenses (mines), mobility (streak), and burst dps (frag/curse/exec combo) there is no need for sorcerer to have a floor of 10k and ceiling of 14k on its class shield while DK and Templar have a floor of 2k and ceiling of 4k without spec'ing into health. Everyone uses healing ward and there are no complaints, it does not need a nerf but based on logic and math; empowered ward does.

The bottom line: if you are having trouble killing a class that uses just healing ward then you have problems with your own build that need to be addressed. If you are having trouble killing a sorcerer with two extremely powerful shields then it is understandable (but still you can tweak your build and playstyle to increase your winrate). Sorcerer is a class that should be fun and challenging; however, from personal interaction from some great sorcerer players the class is boring because: the meta is universal (no identity for individual players) and the ability to use strong shields with high burst, mobility, and defense make playing it an easy win button.

Brrrofski

The only problem I have is hardened and harness stacking.

I have magica and stam on every class. I don't struggle against sorcs on any of my stamina builds. But magica is a different story.

Even on my sorc, fighting another is never-ending. Barely damage each other and gain magica from using harness.

I honestly think they just need to stop those two stacking. Major/minor shield maybe? Those two major, the other minor. Barrier would sit outside as it's an ultimate.

ToRelax

I think you should have addressed the idiocy of major/minor shield buffs as a solution as well.
Apart from that, in whatever way Hardened Ward would be addressed, Sorcerers would then still need their old defensive mechanics to be able to keep them alive again (healing, blocking and roll dodging like any magicka build and specifically Surge, Negate and Defensive Rune). They used to be the most squishy in 1.5, but it would have been fine if it wasn't for impenetrable...

Septimus_Magna

The problem with allowing cris on shields is that shield size should also be increased to compensate. This would make shield users even stronger vs low crit builds and weaker vs high crit builds.

It would seem logical to use the casters spell crit to increase the shield size but I think this could make it even harder to balance tbh.

xEcthelionx

ToRelax wrote: »

I think you should have addressed the idiocy of major/minor shield buffs as a solution as well.
Apart from that, in whatever way Hardened Ward would be addressed, Sorcerers would then still need their old defensive mechanics to be able to keep them alive again (healing, blocking and roll dodging like any magicka build and specifically Surge, Negate and Defensive Rune). They used to be the most squishy in 1.5, but it would have been fine if it wasn't for impenetrable...

Yeah I definitely forgot to cover that one, sorry.

You summed it up quite well.

xEcthelionx

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

The problem with allowing cris on shields is that shield size should also be increased to compensate. This would make shield users even stronger vs low crit builds and weaker vs high crit builds.

It would seem logical to use the casters spell crit to increase the shield size but I think this could make it even harder to balance tbh.

^

ClockworkArc

Why wouldn't major/minor system work?

All Major Shields are shields which only you can cast on yourself.

All Minor Shields are shields which you can cast on an ally.

This way you are locked out of stacking harness and hardened but can use hardened and healing and helps preserve the basic defensive functionality of sorcs without letting them stack shields to infinity.

This also stops people from stacking healing ward and barrier. GG.

ToRelax

Rugz_Maulgoth wrote: »

Why wouldn't major/minor system work?

All Major Shields are shields which only you can cast on yourself.

All Minor Shields are shields which you can cast on an ally.

This way you are locked out of stacking harness and hardened but can use hardened and healing and helps preserve the basic defensive functionality of sorcs without letting them stack shields to infinity.

This also stops people from stacking healing ward and barrier. GG.

For the same reasons the buff system is bad for the game:
- it cuts into build diversity by providing the same tools to everyone, making choices meaningless
- it opens a whole new can of worms of imbalances that have to be addressed or worse, like it happened before, actually won't be addressed.

If you want to go into detail, we get things like what to do with the different minor shields from CP, enchants etc. that act as a small bonus so far but become obsolete if they can't stack (everyone has one of those anyway). What happens to shields scaling like Sun Shield, how to balance the heal from Healing Ward, or what to do with shields like Annulment and Bone Shield that used to only work against certain damage types. What will be done with Hardened Ward, a morph that specifically increases shield strength, what about Barrier and other ultimate shields.
On the other hand, why would we want to eliminate finetuning of your stats, just giving everyone the same effects. Why even choose classes when now everyone runs around with major evasion, expedition, shield etc. How to we prevent excessive fotm mentality when different skills only vary when it comes to their secondary effects, and one of those is just plain better?

And finally, just in case anyone thinks this would bring balance: What is the purpose of Green Dragon Blood?

Cody

I personally think damage shields should go into the major/minor system with everything else. Nerfing their power directly is in my opinion unnecessary.

something needs to be done though. A mana DK or mana templar is not getting thru an 18K shield stack unless the sorcerer just stands there and lets the enemy attack them.

Vordae

The real answer to the problem is not to nerf shield in any way more then they already have. Instead they need to create a counter to it. Shields, Blocking, and roll dodging are all intended to be counters to burst damage. They should stay that way. To counter that you need to create viable sustained dps skills that ignore shields, blocking, and rolling. To do this you take all your pure damage over time skills and make them ignore shield, blocking, and rolling. Sense damage over time skills are sustain dps they get countered by direct healing abilities and purge skills. Currently damage over time skills are under powered so they would need to be buffed in duration, dps, or utility to make this work correctly.

Then players will have to make real choices.

Offensively do i want to go the high burst build which can kill people easily if there caught off guard or unaware but get countered by shield stackers, perma blockers, or roll dodgers who are prepared/on guard?

or

Offensively do i want to go the DoT build which can chew through the shield stacker, perma blocker, and roll dodger but gets countered by pure healers and purges?

Same thing defensively. Do i counter burst damage or Dot builds. This would make builds vary more and be much harder for build to be able to do everything well. This also can have a positive effect on PvE if utilized correctly.

Derra

Costs for shields are about 10 to 20% too low while strengh is about 10 to 20% too strong for hardened and healing ward (a hardened with 40k magica 100 bastion is below 12k and most builds don´t even have 40k).
You´re shifting your stats to fit your argument better which is never a good thing to do as it suggests you´re on some kind of agenda.

I agree however shields should not be stackable - or even better should be reworked:

Increase healing wards initial heal by up to 100% with missing HP and reduce it´s shield scaling down to 150%.

Make the light armor buff a minor protection buff (8% dmg reduction) for about 10s (would be universally useful like the other armor actives). One morph could provide increased duration and one morph minor magica regen for the duration.

Ender1310

Nice post. If you give Dk's and temps the same type of class shield and tweaked sorc shield so that it is not quite as powerful I am sure that will appease a ton of players. Done. I am glad that you acknowledge that their shield stacking {sorc} is op. It makes me so upset when I see them in here whining on how they really aren't that powerful. You know other people play your class right? Your not the only ones that can roll a sorc so stop lying. I have a sorc alt. Its no where near min maxed out but already at v1 I see how powerful and boring it is to just press two buttons every time you get in trouble. Good post. One addition. Keep magicka NB's in mind, I know that everyone hates the NB community because we are kind of pop up and poof blow stuff up and then poof be gone, and I get that can be annoying but you REALLY want class balance in this game. With the mage guild ability buffs Magicka NB are losing alot of their defense.

Derra

Ender1310 wrote: »

Nice post. If you give Dk's and temps the same type of class shield and tweaked sorc shield so that it is not quite as powerful I am sure that will appease a ton of players. Done. I am glad that you acknowledge that their shield stacking {sorc} is op. It makes me so upset when I see them in here whining on how they really aren't that powerful. You know other people play your class right? Your not the only ones that can roll a sorc so stop lying. I have a sorc alt. Its no where near min maxed out but already at v1 I see how powerful and boring it is to just press two buttons every time you get in trouble. Good post. One addition. Keep magicka NB's in mind, I know that everyone hates the NB community because we are kind of pop up and poof blow stuff up and then poof be gone, and I get that can be annoying but you REALLY want class balance in this game. With the mage guild ability buffs Magicka NB are losing alot of their defense.

Sure if you adjust temp and dk selfhealing abilities to match those of sorcs...

Ender1310

Vordae wrote: »

The real answer to the problem is not to nerf shield in any way more then they already have. Instead they need to create a counter to it. Shields, Blocking, and roll dodging are all intended to be counters to burst damage. They should stay that way. To counter that you need to create viable sustained dps skills that ignore shields, blocking, and rolling. To do this you take all your pure damage over time skills and make them ignore shield, blocking, and rolling. Sense damage over time skills are sustain dps they get countered by direct healing abilities and purge skills. Currently damage over time skills are under powered so they would need to be buffed in duration, dps, or utility to make this work correctly.

Then players will have to make real choices.

Offensively do i want to go the high burst build which can kill people easily if there caught off guard or unaware but get countered by shield stackers, perma blockers, or roll dodgers who are prepared/on guard?

or

Offensively do i want to go the DoT build which can chew through the shield stacker, perma blocker, and roll dodger but gets countered by pure healers and purges?

Same thing defensively. Do i counter burst damage or Dot builds. This would make builds vary more and be much harder for build to be able to do everything well. This also can have a positive effect on PvE if utilized correctly.

I love this. This will encourage diversity and team diversity. I always thought that this was what stam and Mag builds aught to be. The problem is that the max damage numbers right away look so sexy that everyone wants them. You would have to make that build have some serious drawbacks. I really like this idea however. Groups would form for pvp with that in mind..like hey we need stamina archers and stamina dps plus magicka warlock like builds to chew through shields. This would be awesome in my opinion. But like I said you have to make these builds equally effective if that makes sense the success and fail rate of the slightly less sexy build (dot build) would have to be the EXACT same as the sexier burst build. And don't get me wrong maybe the stamina builds should be the dot build as stamina builds should be the shield counters.

Derra

Ender1310 wrote: »

Vordae wrote: »

The real answer to the problem is not to nerf shield in any way more then they already have. Instead they need to create a counter to it. Shields, Blocking, and roll dodging are all intended to be counters to burst damage. They should stay that way. To counter that you need to create viable sustained dps skills that ignore shields, blocking, and rolling. To do this you take all your pure damage over time skills and make them ignore shield, blocking, and rolling. Sense damage over time skills are sustain dps they get countered by direct healing abilities and purge skills. Currently damage over time skills are under powered so they would need to be buffed in duration, dps, or utility to make this work correctly.

Then players will have to make real choices.

Offensively do i want to go the high burst build which can kill people easily if there caught off guard or unaware but get countered by shield stackers, perma blockers, or roll dodgers who are prepared/on guard?

or

Offensively do i want to go the DoT build which can chew through the shield stacker, perma blocker, and roll dodger but gets countered by pure healers and purges?

Same thing defensively. Do i counter burst damage or Dot builds. This would make builds vary more and be much harder for build to be able to do everything well. This also can have a positive effect on PvE if utilized correctly.

I love this. This will encourage diversity and team diversity. I always thought that this was what stam and Mag builds aught to be. The problem is that the max damage numbers right away look so sexy that everyone wants them. You would have to make that build have some serious drawbacks. I really like this idea however. Groups would form for pvp with that in mind..like hey we need stamina archers and stamina dps plus magicka warlock like builds to chew through shields. This would be awesome in my opinion. But like I said you have to make these builds equally effective if that makes sense the success and fail rate of the slightly less sexy build (dot build) would have to be the EXACT same as the sexier burst build. And don't get me wrong maybe the stamina builds should be the dot build as stamina builds should be the shield counters.

The only thing this will encourage is builds with as many dot and as many hot abilities on them as possible. Also stam builds get shafted bc purge is magica based.

Ender1310

Yeah and there is one other whole in your argument. Stamina builds can no longer sustain roll. When was the last time you saw a perma roller? I know you think they still exist but they do not. I play a redguard NB stamina of course and I can't roll twice in a roll and still put out offense. Now maybe I could spec for it but my damage would go so far down the tubes its not worth it just to roll a few extra times. Sorry but perma rolling is a thing of the past. With shields as strong as they are I don't see why not bring them back but meh whatevahs.

Ender1310

Derra wrote: »

Ender1310 wrote: »

Nice post. If you give Dk's and temps the same type of class shield and tweaked sorc shield so that it is not quite as powerful I am sure that will appease a ton of players. Done. I am glad that you acknowledge that their shield stacking {sorc} is op. It makes me so upset when I see them in here whining on how they really aren't that powerful. You know other people play your class right? Your not the only ones that can roll a sorc so stop lying. I have a sorc alt. Its no where near min maxed out but already at v1 I see how powerful and boring it is to just press two buttons every time you get in trouble. Good post. One addition. Keep magicka NB's in mind, I know that everyone hates the NB community because we are kind of pop up and poof blow stuff up and then poof be gone, and I get that can be annoying but you REALLY want class balance in this game. With the mage guild ability buffs Magicka NB are losing alot of their defense.

Sure if you adjust temp and dk selfhealing abilities to match those of sorcs...

Sorcs have self heals in the resto tree if they want it. Healing is over rated. There is a counter to healing. Its that debuff that decreases the amount healed. I don't know if its poisons or disease. Its so easy to put on someone plus most classes have it somewhere in their tree. Really Sorcs need more healing? Sorcs are the tankiest class in the game..I am telling you right now keep your class the way it is and everyone is going to roll sorc. Dark brother hood is coming my man and its going to be alt galore. The only reason its not elder sorc right now is veteran ranks. Once 70 percent of the community is wearing a flappy dress and waving a wand around you will be getting on the nerf train as ZOS will nerf you so quick you won't even see it. If I were you I would be begging for an adjustment.

Ender1310

sorry I mispelled whole with hole. I realize I mispelled lots of things but that one was egregious.

Ender1310

And also op on paper that sounds nice..tweak sorc healing but in reality the class design is such that you can throw a shield streak away..the streak completely gets you out of most damage...same as NB's with stealth. I think it takes NB's more skill to get away but thats a mater of opinion. So on paper you say that but the issue is not just with sorc shields as if they had to sit around and get whooped upon it would be ok that they are tanky. the issue is that they can still travel around the whole map with potions via streak. So the most mobile class plus the tankiest with the best damage? Healing can be gotten with another tree and lets be honest the ward in the resto staff tree is all you need to heal. Come on I have magicka classes too.

olsborg

Hardward is average 9-11k, not 12-14k. Hardward alone isnt an issue, its the stacking of healward and harness magicka ontop of hardward thats the real issue, remove this issue and ...voila issue is gone. Sorcs need a better sustained selfheal too when and if this happens. (pets dont count in pvp)

Derra

Ender1310 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Ender1310 wrote: »

Nice post. If you give Dk's and temps the same type of class shield and tweaked sorc shield so that it is not quite as powerful I am sure that will appease a ton of players. Done. I am glad that you acknowledge that their shield stacking {sorc} is op. It makes me so upset when I see them in here whining on how they really aren't that powerful. You know other people play your class right? Your not the only ones that can roll a sorc so stop lying. I have a sorc alt. Its no where near min maxed out but already at v1 I see how powerful and boring it is to just press two buttons every time you get in trouble. Good post. One addition. Keep magicka NB's in mind, I know that everyone hates the NB community because we are kind of pop up and poof blow stuff up and then poof be gone, and I get that can be annoying but you REALLY want class balance in this game. With the mage guild ability buffs Magicka NB are losing alot of their defense.

Sure if you adjust temp and dk selfhealing abilities to match those of sorcs...

Sorcs have self heals in the resto tree if they want it. Healing is over rated. There is a counter to healing. Its that debuff that decreases the amount healed. I don't know if its poisons or disease. Its so easy to put on someone plus most classes have it somewhere in their tree. Really Sorcs need more healing? Sorcs are the tankiest class in the game..I am telling you right now keep your class the way it is and everyone is going to roll sorc. Dark brother hood is coming my man and its going to be alt galore. The only reason its not elder sorc right now is veteran ranks. Once 70 percent of the community is wearing a flappy dress and waving a wand around you will be getting on the nerf train as ZOS will nerf you so quick you won't even see it. If I were you I would be begging for an adjustment.

Did you read my other comment?

People have been claiming everyone is going to roll sorc since 1.6 hit live. It never happend. It won´t happen now. The class is restrictive in it´s own ways and onedimensional with builds.

If you think healing is overrated especially passive selfhealing on main dps abilities you simply have no idea what you´re talking about.

DjKahun

Leave it as it is, shields are sorcerers only defense once the shield is down it will just cut through the light armour.

Ender1310

understand you give sorcs a heal and adjust their shields and all of this skill you think you had when you fighting 10 players goes. There are heals for you that still synergize with you stack magica play style you just dont want to lose the two swords. Read veteran ranks its ok you have no idea how many v1 sorcs are out there just waiting for db. Your talking points suck they sound like its ok for us to be the tankiest most mobile and great burst class cause we boring.

Xeven

12k Vigor, 1k Rally tics, Dodge Roll, Block, Reflect, Shuffle, Impen, 10-25% mitigation in Medium Armor, Hardy, Unchained, Shattering Blows, Shield Breaker, zero mitigation in Light Armor, and spammable stunning, silencing gap closers...

They just wanted to say hi to all the people in this thread.

eventide03b14a_ESO

To those that still complain about shield stacking I direct your attention to:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/250728/multiple-stacks-of-dmg-mitigation#latest
Why is no one addressing this??

AddictionX

Xeven wrote: »

12k Vigor, 1k Rally tics, Dodge Roll, Block, Reflect, Shuffle, Impen, 10-25% mitigation in Medium Armor, Hardy, Unchained, Shattering Blows, Shield Breaker, zero mitigation in Light Armor, and spammable stunning, silencing gap closers...

They just wanted to say hi to all the people in this thread.

Hi! These felt the need to say hello from the other spectrum.

A free dps prox det 10k plus on a single target, you actually have to know when to dodge roll, reflect, shuffle- same cant be said for shield stacking... just stack them. 10-25 percent mitigation and hardy .... yet im still getting hit by 10k light attacks from overload, not to mention shards, and instant shards burst burst burst... yea i could put out all the impen plus mitigation stats blah blah ... but well its been stated many times before sooo ... yea.

Kinda have to spam stunning, silencing gap closers.... you left most stamina classes no choice before you guys cook up another prox det {insert burst skill here or shield stack here} into your rotation cause a sorc thats not cc'ed is a live and dangerous one.

Xeven

AddictionX wrote: »

A free dps prox det 10k plus on a single target

You dun exposed yourself.

The tooltip for MD on PTS, in a full damage build, with 100 EE cp, is 9 something k.

23000 spell resistance is 20% mitigation even from a five light user with legendary nirnhoned...

That 9k is now 7.2k

18% reduction with hardy...

That 7.2k is now 5.9k

50% of that with battle spirit...

That 5.9k is now 3k.

Try harder.

AddictionX

Xeven wrote: »

AddictionX wrote: »

A free dps prox det 10k plus on a single target

You dun exposed yourself.

The tooltip for MD on PTS, in a full damage build, with 100 EE cp, is 9 something k.

23000 spell resistance is 20% mitigation even from a five light user with legendary nirnhoned...

That 9k is now 7.2k

18% reduction with hardy...

That 7.2k id now 5.9k

50% of that with battle spirit...

That 5.9k is now 3k.

Try harder.

Great! Thats like me saying if you wanted physical mitigation wear heavy armor!

Make sure you take pictures the next time you get hit by one of those for the numbers stated above with said mitigation full damage build with 100 ... whatever.

Thanks for doing math, lets go for reality next time with pictures

Also i think you wanted to show a 9k prox det that hits for like 3k(wut?).... umm ok. i mean i guess people can believe that. I can hit for that on my stamina character on random people.... so i think there is more too it than that. Like i think you messed up where you put the battle spirit buff, move it around and which mitigation factors into which numbers and how, but its ok thanks for trying.

All people here post picture with getting hit by 3k prox dets pretty please. Many thanks. I dont think many can call that one with out holding up the block button.... we shall see.

Xeven

18% mitigation with hardy is only 60 CP, which everyone has (and will continue to have) because of Unchained, and because it's awesome.

Lets pretend you are naked.

9k becomes 7,380 with 18% hardy

Half that with battle spirit becomes 3,690

This is all over every magicka users damage log. Ask them. Get a clue.

Lets say it crits, and you're still naked. Thats 13.5k.

13.5k becomes 11,070 after hardy.

11,070 becomes 5,535 after battle spirit.

These are facts. Grind some CP, put on some Impen, stop being a scrub, and stop vomiting your BS numbers all over these forums. Magic damage has been garbage for the last six months.

Force-Siphon

Slot some CCs, wear out the sorcs stam, and kill them when they can't get up...this continues to be a learn to play issue...and by the way other classes have passive mitigation that sorcs do not. Sorcs continue to be hated bc pls refuse to learn to counter them, this is laughable.

And btw sorcs have not been winning dueling tourneys lately as an example, it's been stam builds or in the case of last night, a ridiculously OP magic Templar.

Lokey0024

Put a cast time on all morphs of hardened ward. Fixed. Would give a reason for silence range effect abilities.