Why archers don't work

masterbroodub17_ESO

So I had a thread a while back asking about the possibility of an all-ranged "archer" style build and I've seen the question come up a few times (here, reddit, guild chat) since then. I wanted to take a minute to explain why I think it doesn't work and why it likely won't without some big tweaks and/or the addition of another physical ranged weapon.
The premise that this is built upon is that you are trying to build a ranged, stamina based, physical damage, DPS build. What this means is that you have exactly one option for a weapon: Bow.
When you consider the fact that a purely melee, stamina based, physical damage, DPS build has three different weapon skill options to pull from without breaking that paradigm (going from melee to ranged) it becomes more clear why archer-type builds are gimpy.
It isn't that the bow line is crappy (it's actually quite well-rounded), but it has no other ranged weapon skills with which to augment its damage. The only other two options for that are solely magicka based staves.
Given the above, I don't think that the Bow needs a buff in and of itself (this is WITH the thieves guild changes taken into consideration, those I'm good with). Making it a viable selection to go bow/bow would mean that the weapon would be wholly unbalanced on its own and everyone would be running it on their back bar.
That said, the only real balanced solution to creating a viable ranged, stamina based, physical damage, DPS build would be to add another ranged weapon line from which the two could pull from one another, much like destro and restro staff.
Of course, this is assuming the devs want to create the possibility for such builds. It very well may be that they intended ranged physical damage to be part of hybrid builds (melee/ranged, not necessarily magicka/stamina).
Anyhow, let me know what you think and hopefully I haven't bored you with my wall-o-text.

Vythri

Why not have a long bow and short bow skill tree? One designed to kill at long range, to keep your enemies at long range, and to have more burst damage, but takes longer to draw. One to shoot faster, and have less burst damage, but more sustain, and allow you to be more maneuverable.

It obviously would have to be a complete redesign of the bow tree by essentially splitting up some skills into 2 different trees, and adding new ones. That would at least allow for a true archer style of character to exist though.

masterbroodub17_ESO

Vythri wrote: »

Why not have a long bow and short bow skill tree? One designed to kill at long range, to keep your enemies at long range, and to have more burst damage, but takes longer to draw. One to shoot faster, and have less burst damage, but more sustain, and allow you to be more maneuverable.

It obviously would have to be a complete redesign of the bow tree by essentially splitting up some skills into 2 different trees, and adding new ones. That would at least allow for a true archer style of character to exist though.

I could get behind this. It isn't as though there's no precedent for it (restro/destro/fire/shock/cold). It's also probably the simplest solution, by simply making smaller models of the standard size bows.
I would like to see a more creative solution like Crossbows or Thrown Weapons, BUT I realize that any change/addition is already probably asking too much so I would settle for the simplest answer.

DaveMoeDee

Even Legolas busts out the daggers in close combat.

CP5

It would be interesting if skills changed based on bow type equipt, like destruction staff skills. Could make bows more interesting than they already are, which is saying something. It would also let bow users of different styles get what they want between burst and sustain.

GreenGhostMan

Vythri wrote: »

Why not have a long bow and short bow skill tree? One designed to kill at long range, to keep your enemies at long range, and to have more burst damage, but takes longer to draw. One to shoot faster, and have less burst damage, but more sustain, and allow you to be more maneuverable.

It obviously would have to be a complete redesign of the bow tree by essentially splitting up some skills into 2 different trees, and adding new ones. That would at least allow for a true archer style of character to exist though.

I like this idea. ESO needs more archers!

masterbroodub17_ESO

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Even Legolas busts out the daggers in close combat.

But he doesn't jump straight into close combat

masterbroodub17_ESO

argh, double-post.

masterbroodub17_ESO

CP5 wrote: »

It would be interesting if skills changed based on bow type equipt, like destruction staff skills. Could make bows more interesting than they already are, which is saying something. It would also let bow users of different styles get what they want between burst and sustain.

Precisely. They've done something similar already with staves so it's not like the concept would be %100 fresh. The skills would need re-working but again they've already done something similar before.

Vythri

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

Vythri wrote: »

Why not have a long bow and short bow skill tree? One designed to kill at long range, to keep your enemies at long range, and to have more burst damage, but takes longer to draw. One to shoot faster, and have less burst damage, but more sustain, and allow you to be more maneuverable.

It obviously would have to be a complete redesign of the bow tree by essentially splitting up some skills into 2 different trees, and adding new ones. That would at least allow for a true archer style of character to exist though.

I could get behind this. It isn't as though there's no precedent for it (restro/destro/fire/shock/cold). It's also probably the simplest solution, by simply making smaller models of the standard size bows.
I would like to see a more creative solution like Crossbows or Thrown Weapons, BUT I realize that any change/addition is already probably asking too much so I would settle for the simplest answer.

Crossbows would be cool too, and they are already in-lore as well. I'm not quite sure why they don't exist in this game.

I understand that ranged stamina DPS probably shouldn't be at the top of the charts and competing with melee for obvious reasons. I just want it to be competitive. Giving the bow skill tree a way to get Major Brutality like DW and 2H would be a nice place to start. That way I'd be able to go Bow/Bow and not Bow/2H, and just pick up Vigor for my self heal.

Cody

I actually had a bow only build before, it was back in the days of wabbajack. I actually did not do too bad with it. I took out two VR6s by myself while I was in my mid 30s, and a VR8 at VR2, as well as even some VR10s:D I ended up going DW eventually though. I wanted to use sparks to deal with perma block block casters.

plus, again, this was in the days of wabbajack. such a build would not work now. Being stun locked by gap closers constantly would make a bow only build very difficult to play. Staff users can use resto staves for the shield, and class escape/ get out of jail free card abilities tend to do better with mana builds than stamina.

Lexxypwns

Cody wrote: »

I actually had a bow only build before, it was back in the days of wabbajack. I actually did not do too bad with it. I took out two VR6s by myself while I was in my mid 30s, and a VR8 at VR2, as well as even some VR10s:D I ended up going DW eventually though. I wanted to use sparks to deal with perma block block casters.

plus, again, this was in the days of wabbajack. such a build would not work now. Being stun locked by gap closers constantly would make a bow only build very difficult to play. Staff users can use resto staves for the shield, and class escape/ get out of jail free card abilities tend to do better with mana builds than stamina.

Sparks

yodased

Like I said in the other thread. The exact build you want exists in dw/bow. Except you arent using a ranged weapon at melee distance.

You have hidden blade and the other thrown dagger, you have silver bolts, you have steel tornado. A bow mainhand dual wield off hand is pretty damn close to ranged/ranged just not with light/heavy attacks.

masterbroodub17_ESO

yodased wrote: »

Like I said in the other thread. The exact build you want exists in dw/bow. Except you arent using a ranged weapon at melee distance.

You have hidden blade and the other thrown dagger, you have silver bolts, you have steel tornado. A bow mainhand dual wield off hand is pretty damn close to ranged/ranged just not with light/heavy attacks.

Not even close, Steel tornado is an AoE around the user, why the hell would I AoE to only hit the outside enemies? (read: not in melee range)

Silver bolts are crap unless used against undead/daedra, and why would I use that when I can use snipe instead for a single target DPS skill?

With hidden blade, again why would I use this? It's inferior to what's already available (snipe, poison injection), not to mention I would need to equip DW to use it. If I was going to do this I would just go 2h and use Rally.

Edit: The build you're suggesting would be lower DPS than a bow/bow build lmao

dreamfarer

Flying Blade does offer the Major Brutality buff, which is unavailable in the Bow skill line. So +20% damage from there without relying on potions. It's also a 50% movement speed debuff, to allow you stay at range.

As a Nightblade, there's other things you could fill your DW bar with too:
- Siphoning Strikes for resource management
- Mark Target and it's morphs
- Shadowy Disguise for cloaking and the guaranteed crit on an opening attack
- Grim Focus for the +8% damage buff.

Could you do better with a 2H instead? Well...does that matter? Is the All Archer build meant to be "the top end DPS in the game" (meaning nothing is allowed to be better than it) or is what's being asked for simply a viable build for "I want to do all my damage from range with a bow"?

yodased

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Like I said in the other thread. The exact build you want exists in dw/bow. Except you arent using a ranged weapon at melee distance.

You have hidden blade and the other thrown dagger, you have silver bolts, you have steel tornado. A bow mainhand dual wield off hand is pretty damn close to ranged/ranged just not with light/heavy attacks.

Not even close, Steel tornado is an AoE around the user, why the hell would I AoE to only hit the outside enemies? (read: not in melee range)

Silver bolts are crap unless used against undead/daedra, and why would I use that when I can use snipe instead for a single target DPS skill?

With hidden blade, again why would I use this? It's inferior to what's already available (snipe, poison injection), not to mention I would need to equip DW to use it. If I was going to do this I would just go 2h and use Rally.

Edit: The build you're suggesting would be lower DPS than a bow/bow build lmao

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you are saying bow/dw is less dps than bow/bow

masterbroodub17_ESO

yodased wrote: »

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Like I said in the other thread. The exact build you want exists in dw/bow. Except you arent using a ranged weapon at melee distance.

You have hidden blade and the other thrown dagger, you have silver bolts, you have steel tornado. A bow mainhand dual wield off hand is pretty damn close to ranged/ranged just not with light/heavy attacks.

Not even close, Steel tornado is an AoE around the user, why the hell would I AoE to only hit the outside enemies? (read: not in melee range)

Silver bolts are crap unless used against undead/daedra, and why would I use that when I can use snipe instead for a single target DPS skill?

With hidden blade, again why would I use this? It's inferior to what's already available (snipe, poison injection), not to mention I would need to equip DW to use it. If I was going to do this I would just go 2h and use Rally.

Edit: The build you're suggesting would be lower DPS than a bow/bow build lmao

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hold on
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

you are saying bow/dw is less dps than bow/bow

With those skills slotted, and using them in that way...yes absolutely.

Trying to use Steel Tornado while not in melee range is stupid, period. Especially when Bombard/Acid Spay has a 20 meter range and Steel tornado only has an 11.

For Hidden Blade you could make an argument but then I'm running another bar for one skill, and like I said, might as well go 2H for better buffs if I'm going to do that.

masterbroodub17_ESO

dreamfarer wrote: »

Flying Blade does offer the Major Brutality buff, which is unavailable in the Bow skill line. So +20% damage from there without relying on potions. It's also a 50% movement speed debuff, to allow you stay at range.

As a Nightblade, there's other things you could fill your DW bar with too:
- Siphoning Strikes for resource management
- Mark Target and it's morphs
- Shadowy Disguise for cloaking and the guaranteed crit on an opening attack
- Grim Focus for the +8% damage buff.

Could you do better with a 2H instead? Well...does that matter? Is the All Archer build meant to be "the top end DPS in the game" (meaning nothing is allowed to be better than it) or is what's being asked for simply a viable build for "I want to do all my damage from range with a bow"?

True statement in terms of Flying blade, and definitely an interesting option to explore. Seems like an equally wasteful use of an off-bar to use one skill (kinda like 2H and rally) though. If I was going to only use one skill I could just use 2H and run rally, which would provide more utility.

All of those skills you listed are class skills and can be used whether or not you use DW on either bar though. They're not what we're talking about.

People seem to get confused about the topic here, which is not to come up with a build using what's available. The point is that there's no way to get even close to melee damage output, and since the game does not lock you into a weapon type it's basically run melee or suck.

Also, I am running Mark Target and Grim focus already. I don't know what the point in mentioning those skills is since (again) we're talking about weapon skills, not class skills.

Edit: This is NOT a "help me maximize my DPS" thread, I've done the research, I know what options are available, that's the entire point of the thread.

Xvorg

masterbroodub17_ESO wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

Like I said in the other thread. The exact build you want exists in dw/bow. Except you arent using a ranged weapon at melee distance.

You have hidden blade and the other thrown dagger, you have silver bolts, you have steel tornado. A bow mainhand dual wield off hand is pretty damn close to ranged/ranged just not with light/heavy attacks.

Not even close, Steel tornado is an AoE around the user, why the hell would I AoE to only hit the outside enemies? (read: not in melee range)

Silver bolts are crap unless used against undead/daedra, and why would I use that when I can use snipe instead for a single target DPS skill?

With hidden blade, again why would I use this? It's inferior to what's already available (snipe, poison injection), not to mention I would need to equip DW to use it. If I was going to do this I would just go 2h and use Rally.

Edit: The build you're suggesting would be lower DPS than a bow/bow build lmao

Silver Bolts is one of the best ranged skill. Instant casted and can be combo with other skills from afar...

If you think that bow has more dps in range, just try this DW templar Build (use swords for more wpn dmg):

1- Camo hunter
2- Any defensive skill (shuffle, inmo, blade cloack) or a heal (BoL, Repenteance, vigor)
3- Silver Shards
4- Blinding Jav
5- Flying Blade
U- Flawless Dawnbreaker

Use the Jav (stun), then the dagger(for more DPs) and end up with the crossbow. Each 4 javs you should proc. burning light passive. Don't forget camo hunter (more dmg).

Just make sure to get a high crit strike chance (for the piercing spear passive).

That build beat archers any day of the week

GreenSoup2HoT

Gap closer spam.

if there was immunity like cc for gal closers maybe bow users could kite their enemy with hasty retreat ans magnum shot.

masterbroodub17_ESO

Not concerned with PvP at all, sorry should have specified.

CJohnson81

I've been playing a bow/bow build because I love it, and it's fun. I also get killed in PVP before I even make it to the siege. I'm not a great gamer, I'll admit that, so the forums have been pretty insightful into the reasons why my build just isn't working. So, that said, yeah I really want it to work. I've always wanted a quick melee skill for those "oh no!" moments when I get overwhelmed - like a quick neck stab with an arrow in hand. I think that would just be fun.

I also just wish I had a little more DPS coming from the base weapon - I know it gets better, I'm still leveling, but sometimes my fights are just... scorched earth, wings, poison injection/light animation cancelled, light, light, dodge roll, light, light, talons, run away, run away, wings, snipe, light light light light (praying, praying, praying because I'm out of stam). annnd I'm dead.

I like the options mentioned for long bows, short bows and crossbows. I also think that having something like daggers for short ranged melee could help, will still allowing you to slot two bows.