An Issue I find with NB's...

H4RDFOX

So I've been playing my NB as a wood-elf Bow/Dual-wield daggers. I have played my class as I believe it should have been played. However I find that a lot of NB's like to roll with the two-handers, which is fine. My issue with NB though is two-handed weapons being on the same bar with surprise attack (dagger animation ability), and ambush (another dagger animation ability) executable. This does not make sense. (1) the abilities use stamina, not magicka. (2) they resemble a dagger being used. The icons themselves resemble a dagger or blade like element.

I understand that it is a NB's class ability, but it needs to make sense in what resource is being used for such an attack. Right now it looks as if a two-handed weapon is slotted, and these magical blades are appearing because of stamina, and correct me if i'm wrong but stamina is a strength resource. There are only two solutions to this, either change the resource being used, which would result in revamping resource management, or set the stamina based attacks as weapon based attacks as well.

Ara_Valleria

oh noes ! Rip immersion

LadyNalcarya

Well, lore-wise it's possible to summon spiritual swords, Shehai.

"... Oh cruel fate ... Then my beloved sword, the sword of my father, the one with the serpent's crest, fashioned by the master swordsmith Singer Tansal broke in my hands. All was lost, our six lives spent in vain. Now, many many of them would pour through the pass. I would be easy prey for them, like a newborn child. I wept in frustration.

"Then I remembered the hearth in our home—the book. Frandar Hunding's Book of Circles, the Way of Strategy. I reached for Shehai, the spirit sword, that which I could never reliably form when I needed it, and behold ... it was alive. Alive with fire. It formed in my hand. Ablaze with power—oh, I slew mightily, right and left, like a scythe through wheat. All the way to the Lord of Daggerfall I fought. With one blow I cut his magical armor asunder, one more took his head.

From "Memory stone of Makela Leki". She was a warrior btw, not a mage.
So why its not possible to summon shadow daggers?

OdinForge

but it needs to make sense in what resource is being used for such an attack. Right now it looks as if a two-handed weapon is slotted, and these magical blades are appearing because of stamina, and correct me if i'm wrong but stamina is a strength resource. There are only two solutions to this, either change the resource being used, which would result in revamping resource management, or set the stamina based attacks as weapon based attacks as well.

Cody

surprise attack used to cost mana and only mana, in fact all NB skills used to cost mana and only mana, and the class was garbage compared to the other classes when it did. Leave the resource changes in regards to those abilities alone. You want to re-vamp resource management/weapon or spell damage? then bring back softcaps.

FullBlownBeast

Threads should be able to be down voted and hidden, so people don't have to waste time reading nonsense.

H4RDFOX

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Well, lore-wise it's possible to summon spiritual swords, Shehai.

"... Oh cruel fate ... Then my beloved sword, the sword of my father, the one with the serpent's crest, fashioned by the master swordsmith Singer Tansal broke in my hands. All was lost, our six lives spent in vain. Now, many many of them would pour through the pass. I would be easy prey for them, like a newborn child. I wept in frustration.

"Then I remembered the hearth in our home—the book. Frandar Hunding's Book of Circles, the Way of Strategy. I reached for Shehai, the spirit sword, that which I could never reliably form when I needed it, and behold ... it was alive. Alive with fire. It formed in my hand. Ablaze with power—oh, I slew mightily, right and left, like a scythe through wheat. All the way to the Lord of Daggerfall I fought. With one blow I cut his magical armor asunder, one more took his head.

From "Memory stone of Makela Leki". She was a warrior btw, not a mage.
So why its not possible to summon shadow daggers?

This would make sense, and I appreciate the info. However I believe it to be an assumption that a Night-Blade shares the same energy as a warrior (IMO). I remember reading in the forums somewhere that a NB was/is a mage. I didn't check on those sources, but a good way to counter what I am saying is to provide NB lore. This is definitely something ZOS should have up on their website, lore of the game based on the Elder Scrolls Universe, which is only one.

According to that website you offered:

-Skyrim Class page states that a NB is a 1HD, alteration, destruction, light armor, sneak class with 2/2/2 on health/magicka/stamina.
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Classes

-Oblivion Class page states that a NB is an athletics, blade, alteration, destruction, restoration, acrobatics, light armor class with a specialization in Magic. "Nightblade: Spell and shadow are their friends. By darkness they move with haste, casting Magic to benefit their circumstances." Attributes: SPEED - governing attribute for acrobatics, athletics, and light armor. WILLPOWER - governing attribute for Alteration, Destruction, and Restoration. This affects (1) regeneration rate of Magicka, and (2) Fatigue = Willpower + Agility + Endurance + Strength.
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Classes

-Morrowind Class page states that a NB Majors in alteration, illusion, mysticism, blade, and sneak. It also minors in security, marksmen, light armor, destruction, and unarmored. "NIghtblades are spellcasters who us their magics to enhance mobility, concealment, and stealthy close combat. They have a sinister reputation, since many nightblades are thieves, enforecers, assassins, or covert agents. Specialization: Magic. Attributes: Willpower, Speed."
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes

-Arena (first Elder Scrolls game) Class page states that a NIghtblade is a Mage variant. Nightblades are those Mages who have perfected their arts to help in activities involving infiltration, spying, and stealth. They are much like thieves, creatures of the night, able to use their considerable powers to help them in their nocturnal activities. In combat, Nightblades receive a chance per level of scoring a critical hit (triple damage). Nightblades can pick locks about as well as Rogues. They also Receive 1.5 times their intelligence in starting spell points. Disadvantage: NIghtblades sacrifice some of their fighting ability in exchange for increased spellcasting ability.
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Classes

I have provided credible information to my claims on the matter. The Nightblade is a magicka based class since the beginning of all elder scrolls players. The information also states, within this one site, that NB's are able to use almost all weapons but axes. This is fine and dandy, however when coupled with a two handed weapon on the same bar, the assassin and shadow abilities are using up a resource from stamina, as if it is a physical ability with a physical piece of equipment. It would indeed make much more sense if the nightblade abilities utilize magicka in most of their class abilities, and leave stamina use to other elements of the class such as acrobatics, athletics and the like. This is all valid information, and should be considered.


The ones with less constructive means to establish reasons why the system is the way it is really isn't helpful at all. "If you have nothing nice to say, then don't say anything at all." Times have clearly changed.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

H4RDFOX wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Well, lore-wise it's possible to summon spiritual swords, Shehai.

"... Oh cruel fate ... Then my beloved sword, the sword of my father, the one with the serpent's crest, fashioned by the master swordsmith Singer Tansal broke in my hands. All was lost, our six lives spent in vain. Now, many many of them would pour through the pass. I would be easy prey for them, like a newborn child. I wept in frustration.

"Then I remembered the hearth in our home—the book. Frandar Hunding's Book of Circles, the Way of Strategy. I reached for Shehai, the spirit sword, that which I could never reliably form when I needed it, and behold ... it was alive. Alive with fire. It formed in my hand. Ablaze with power—oh, I slew mightily, right and left, like a scythe through wheat. All the way to the Lord of Daggerfall I fought. With one blow I cut his magical armor asunder, one more took his head.

From "Memory stone of Makela Leki". She was a warrior btw, not a mage.
So why its not possible to summon shadow daggers?

This would make sense, and I appreciate the info. However I believe it to be an assumption that a Night-Blade shares the same energy as a warrior (IMO). I remember reading in the forums somewhere that a NB was/is a mage. I didn't check on those sources, but a good way to counter what I am saying is to provide NB lore. This is definitely something ZOS should have up on their website, lore of the game based on the Elder Scrolls Universe, which is only one.

According to that website you offered:

-Skyrim Class page states that a NB is a 1HD, alteration, destruction, light armor, sneak class with 2/2/2 on health/magicka/stamina.
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Classes

-Oblivion Class page states that a NB is an athletics, blade, alteration, destruction, restoration, acrobatics, light armor class with a specialization in Magic. "Nightblade: Spell and shadow are their friends. By darkness they move with haste, casting Magic to benefit their circumstances." Attributes: SPEED - governing attribute for acrobatics, athletics, and light armor. WILLPOWER - governing attribute for Alteration, Destruction, and Restoration. This affects (1) regeneration rate of Magicka, and (2) Fatigue = Willpower + Agility + Endurance + Strength.
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Classes

-Morrowind Class page states that a NB Majors in alteration, illusion, mysticism, blade, and sneak. It also minors in security, marksmen, light armor, destruction, and unarmored. "NIghtblades are spellcasters who us their magics to enhance mobility, concealment, and stealthy close combat. They have a sinister reputation, since many nightblades are thieves, enforecers, assassins, or covert agents. Specialization: Magic. Attributes: Willpower, Speed."
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes

-Arena (first Elder Scrolls game) Class page states that a NIghtblade is a Mage variant. Nightblades are those Mages who have perfected their arts to help in activities involving infiltration, spying, and stealth. They are much like thieves, creatures of the night, able to use their considerable powers to help them in their nocturnal activities. In combat, Nightblades receive a chance per level of scoring a critical hit (triple damage). Nightblades can pick locks about as well as Rogues. They also Receive 1.5 times their intelligence in starting spell points. Disadvantage: NIghtblades sacrifice some of their fighting ability in exchange for increased spellcasting ability.
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Classes

I have provided credible information to my claims on the matter. The Nightblade is a magicka based class since the beginning of all elder scrolls players. The information also states, within this one site, that NB's are able to use almost all weapons but axes. This is fine and dandy, however when coupled with a two handed weapon on the same bar, the assassin and shadow abilities are using up a resource from stamina, as if it is a physical ability with a physical piece of equipment. It would indeed make much more sense if the nightblade abilities utilize magicka in most of their class abilities, and leave stamina use to other elements of the class such as acrobatics, athletics and the like. This is all valid information, and should be considered.


The ones with less constructive means to establish reasons why the system is the way it is really isn't helpful at all. "If you have nothing nice to say, then don't say anything at all." Times have clearly changed.

All the classes on this game are mages all the class powers and all the Ultimates were pure magic aside from Dragon Leap. Making class attacks stamina was made a year into the game.

Before this class powers for stamina build (the few of us that were stamina when magic was King) were utilities.

If it gets to you that much just think of them as Bound Weapons from Skyrim.

LadyNalcarya

H4RDFOX wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Well, lore-wise it's possible to summon spiritual swords, Shehai.

"... Oh cruel fate ... Then my beloved sword, the sword of my father, the one with the serpent's crest, fashioned by the master swordsmith Singer Tansal broke in my hands. All was lost, our six lives spent in vain. Now, many many of them would pour through the pass. I would be easy prey for them, like a newborn child. I wept in frustration.

"Then I remembered the hearth in our home—the book. Frandar Hunding's Book of Circles, the Way of Strategy. I reached for Shehai, the spirit sword, that which I could never reliably form when I needed it, and behold ... it was alive. Alive with fire. It formed in my hand. Ablaze with power—oh, I slew mightily, right and left, like a scythe through wheat. All the way to the Lord of Daggerfall I fought. With one blow I cut his magical armor asunder, one more took his head.

From "Memory stone of Makela Leki". She was a warrior btw, not a mage.
So why its not possible to summon shadow daggers?

This would make sense, and I appreciate the info. However I believe it to be an assumption that a Night-Blade shares the same energy as a warrior (IMO). I remember reading in the forums somewhere that a NB was/is a mage. I didn't check on those sources, but a good way to counter what I am saying is to provide NB lore. This is definitely something ZOS should have up on their website, lore of the game based on the Elder Scrolls Universe, which is only one.

According to that website you offered:

-Skyrim Class page states that a NB is a 1HD, alteration, destruction, light armor, sneak class with 2/2/2 on health/magicka/stamina.
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Classes

-Oblivion Class page states that a NB is an athletics, blade, alteration, destruction, restoration, acrobatics, light armor class with a specialization in Magic. "Nightblade: Spell and shadow are their friends. By darkness they move with haste, casting Magic to benefit their circumstances." Attributes: SPEED - governing attribute for acrobatics, athletics, and light armor. WILLPOWER - governing attribute for Alteration, Destruction, and Restoration. This affects (1) regeneration rate of Magicka, and (2) Fatigue = Willpower + Agility + Endurance + Strength.
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Classes

-Morrowind Class page states that a NB Majors in alteration, illusion, mysticism, blade, and sneak. It also minors in security, marksmen, light armor, destruction, and unarmored. "NIghtblades are spellcasters who us their magics to enhance mobility, concealment, and stealthy close combat. They have a sinister reputation, since many nightblades are thieves, enforecers, assassins, or covert agents. Specialization: Magic. Attributes: Willpower, Speed."
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes

-Arena (first Elder Scrolls game) Class page states that a NIghtblade is a Mage variant. Nightblades are those Mages who have perfected their arts to help in activities involving infiltration, spying, and stealth. They are much like thieves, creatures of the night, able to use their considerable powers to help them in their nocturnal activities. In combat, Nightblades receive a chance per level of scoring a critical hit (triple damage). Nightblades can pick locks about as well as Rogues. They also Receive 1.5 times their intelligence in starting spell points. Disadvantage: NIghtblades sacrifice some of their fighting ability in exchange for increased spellcasting ability.
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Classes

I have provided credible information to my claims on the matter. The Nightblade is a magicka based class since the beginning of all elder scrolls players. The information also states, within this one site, that NB's are able to use almost all weapons but axes. This is fine and dandy, however when coupled with a two handed weapon on the same bar, the assassin and shadow abilities are using up a resource from stamina, as if it is a physical ability with a physical piece of equipment. It would indeed make much more sense if the nightblade abilities utilize magicka in most of their class abilities, and leave stamina use to other elements of the class such as acrobatics, athletics and the like. This is all valid information, and should be considered.


The ones with less constructive means to establish reasons why the system is the way it is really isn't helpful at all. "If you have nothing nice to say, then don't say anything at all." Times have clearly changed.

Nightblade can be built as a warlock-type mage, sneaky rogue or even a life-draining tank. It gives players an opportunity to make a character they want to play, and this is very good imo, considering that classes in eso are more strinct than in other TES titles. Since nightblade descriptions differ in these games, Zos gave us a choice. We can use stealth, illusion, and even darker aspects of restoration magic.
Being able to use "magical-looking" abilities on stamina char is just a gameplay thing, but I think that if conjured daedric weapons and spiritual weapons exist in elder scrolls lore, shadow weapons can be a thing as well.
Also, not all magical disciplines require mana pool, Thu'um for example.

And dont take game mechanics too seriously... There's also a possibility that ESO takes place during a Dragon Break. This might explain books from the future and weird Imperial City map, as well as other strange things.

Xvorg

H4RDFOX wrote: »

So I've been playing my NB as a wood-elf Bow/Dual-wield daggers. I have played my class as I believe it should have been played. However I find that a lot of NB's like to roll with the two-handers, which is fine. My issue with NB though is two-handed weapons being on the same bar with surprise attack (dagger animation ability), and ambush (another dagger animation ability) executable. This does not make sense. (1) the abilities use stamina, not magicka. (2) they resemble a dagger being used. The icons themselves resemble a dagger or blade like element.

I understand that it is a NB's class ability, but it needs to make sense in what resource is being used for such an attack. Right now it looks as if a two-handed weapon is slotted, and these magical blades are appearing because of stamina, and correct me if i'm wrong but stamina is a strength resource. There are only two solutions to this, either change the resource being used, which would result in revamping resource management, or set the stamina based attacks as weapon based attacks as well.

My magicka NB used to carry a resto staff and some daggers hiden in his sleeves, for... you know, Sithis

H4RDFOX

I appreciate the constructive feedback.

If I am not mistaken, Thu'um is a Dragon Born ability, which is being able to use vocals to say whatever needed. We are talking about weapons, and with the intel provided, conjured weapons whether it be daedric or shadow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dolant4Glag
The skyrim conjured weapon(s) used resources from magicka.

I understand variety, and I have an assumption the changes made were to appease players. However if I understand the lore of a nightblade correctly, stamina was only used for physical weapons, and acrobatics/agility movements. The magicka is used to bring "shadow weapons."

I've said my piece on the matter to get it out. I thank those that took time to read, and provided some information.

Xvorg

H4RDFOX wrote: »

I appreciate the constructive feedback.

If I am not mistaken, Thu'um is a Dragon Born ability, which is being able to use vocals to say whatever needed. We are talking about weapons, and with the intel provided, conjured weapons whether it be daedric or shadow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dolant4Glag
The skyrim conjured weapon(s) used resources from magicka.

I understand variety, and I have an assumption the changes made were to appease players. However if I understand the lore of a nightblade correctly, stamina was only used for physical weapons, and acrobatics/agility movements. The magicka is used to bring "shadow weapons."

I've said my piece on the matter to get it out. I thank those that took time to read, and provided some information.

I'm going to ignore skyrim video... coz, you know, I hate skyrim...

anyway, when game was launched class skills were intended for magicka while weapon skills for stamina (even staves), so all the NBs skills with dagger animation were thought like "bound dagger" versions, while the aedric spear skill line was like "bound spear".

Tghat changed with the introduction of stamina based class skills.

Now, think about this, DKs whips are more lore breaking than any "dagger" skill in the NBs tree. Did they turned the 2h axe into a whip?

LadyNalcarya

H4RDFOX wrote: »

I appreciate the constructive feedback.

If I am not mistaken, Thu'um is a Dragon Born ability, which is being able to use vocals to say whatever needed. We are talking about weapons, and with the intel provided, conjured weapons whether it be daedric or shadow.

Everyone can learn Thu'um, Ulfric Stormcloack, for example, knew Unrelenting Force, he learned it from Greybeards. Dragons and dragonborns just have and advantage. And this is kind of magic that doesnt use magicka, so its technically possible.
Shehai, Redguard spirit sword technique, is not available for players, but it is known to be used by warriors, not mages.
We also dont know much about Dwemer's tonal architecture, maybe its also not related to magicka in traditional sense.
Bound weapons are summoned with magicka, but I mentioned that only to show that summoning weapons is not unheard of in Tamriel.

However if I understand the lore of a nightblade correctly, stamina was only used for physical weapons, and acrobatics/agility movements. The magicka is used to bring "shadow weapons."

There's not much "lore" behind TES classes, they have always been more like archetypes. Even limiting players class' abilities only exists in ESO, in other games players were free to build any character they wanted to play, regardless of starting class.
TES lore is quite flexible and open for interpretations. There's nothing about the nature of said "shadow weapons" so they could be like a weaker version of Shehai that only exists for a second.
And tbh, I think you're too concentrated on game mechanics. And mechanic-wise there's much more questionable stuff, like heavy attacks restoring stamina.

Strider_Roshin

If they could make the animations mirror your weapon held, I think it would be an awesome addition to the game. I doubt they'll do it though :-\

LadyNalcarya

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

If they could make the animations mirror your weapon held, I think it would be an awesome addition to the game. I doubt they'll do it though :-\

Maybe this would work for nbs...
But then there's another class with summoned weapons - Templar